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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I'm of the school, if Bernie had gotten out of the race and supported Hillary she may have won.


The truth is there were a lot of ways to win, and whatever those were, winning now is what we can do about it. Buckle up kids. We got work to do.


Winning now is precarious. Trumps base is expanding and they will go to the polls. He has a good chance of being a 2 term president.

Being a known racist, misogynist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, narcissist hasn't moved his base.

Unemployment's low, stock market's doing well, the economy healthy. How do you attack him? What will the Democrats message be?


I’ll tell what it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be a platform that says simply, “Trump is bad and needs to go.” That is simply not going to get it done.

It has to be a message that energizes those who didn’t vote for Hillary in the last election. It’s no coincidence that the two campaigns that held huge energetic rallies in the last election were Trump and Sanders. They both were appealing to different sides of the same coin. Decades of neoliberal policies from both the DNC and GOP that made the rich richer, increased the percentage of poor, and diminished the middle class. As Splash keeps trying to get through the noggins, these voters have suffered for decades under leadership from both parties. They are done voting status quo. It’s not holding people hostage, it’s not being vindictive, they are just done voting for candidates that can’t authentically say they want to change things.

It’s actually a great opportunity for universal healthcare, free public college for anyone who wants it, and reversing the Republican tax cuts for the rich and returning to a more progressive and fair tax system.


10/10 trump 2020 campaigning
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
In 1934, an American professor urged that Jews be civil — to the Nazis

“By hating Hitler and trying to fight back,” Cadbury declared in remarks that opened the convention, “Jews are only increasing the severity of his policies against them.”

If Jews instead would educate Nazis about Judaism’s “ideals” and “appeal to the German sense of justice and the German national conscience,” Cadbury continued, the Nazis might well be brought around. Urging Jews to adopt a “live and let live” posture, he said that even nonviolent resistance campaigns such as boycotts were “not the way to right the wrongs being inflicted on the Jewish people.” . . .

Cadbury’s speech provoked outrage among the gathered rabbis, who declared in an official statement that they, along with “all the enlightened forces of mankind,” were committed to resisting Nazism “to the utmost.” Their resistance, they said, was “not prompted by any ill will or hatred of the German people, but by an inescapable moral compulsion.” While “moral persuasion” had its place, they said, it must be “supplemented by every manner of non-violent resistance calculated to bring an end to the [Nazi] regime.”

Rabbi Samuel Shulman, one of the signers of the statement, summed up the prevailing sentiment at the convention: “If we do not resist evil, we go along with it.”


There are obvious parallels to what is going on in the United States today. Some of them very subtle and related to intra-party issues.

Eye on the prize people. Gotta get Trump out as a collective Left, and then we can discuss how to best proceed while engaging in all the various nuances within the Left.


that's powerful and i agree very relevant to today
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
I'm of the school, if Bernie had gotten out of the race and supported Hillary she may have won.


The truth is there were a lot of ways to win, and whatever those were, winning now is what we can do about it. Buckle up kids. We got work to do.


Winning now is precarious. Trumps base is expanding and they will go to the polls. He has a good chance of being a 2 term president.

Being a known racist, misogynist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, narcissist hasn't moved his base.

Unemployment's low, stock market's doing well, the economy healthy. How do you attack him? What will the Democrats message be?


I’ll tell what it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be a platform that says simply, “Trump is bad and needs to go.” That is simply not going to get it done.


Agreed. And fortunately Trump and the GOP have provided a ton of concrete ammunition in regards to destroying that stupidly dismissive assessment that you and others inaccurately claim is the sole message of the Democrats.

Quote:
It has to be a message that energizes those who didn’t vote for Hillary in the last election.


If the actions of Trump and the GOP over the last 19 months haven't energized such people to vote against Trump, then the problem is not the "message" from the Democrats. The problem is those who are so stubborn and self involved that they are willing to let the country slide into the abyss out of their own foolish and selfish arrogant need too prove a point.

Quote:
It’s no coincidence that the two campaigns that held huge energetic rallies in the last election were Trump and Sanders. They both were appealing to different sides of the same coin. Decades of neoliberal policies from both the DNC and GOP that made the rich richer, increased the percentage of poor, and diminished the middle class.


That's very true. And right now the nation is faced with a far more sinister beast than it has ever seen. We can quibble about how great Bernie would have been had he won and berate the DNC and voters for not embracing the Bern OR we can agree that Trump has to go and do everything we can to make that happen. Once that is accomplished we can address those issues.

Quote:
As Splash keeps trying to get through the noggins, these voters have suffered for decades under leadership from both parties. They are done voting status quo.


And yet those voters will see their ideals turned to burnt toast if they don't get out of their own way and see the looming threat to those ideals, and that threat is not others who actually share those same ideals. We all have legitimate concerns. But those concerns can only be addressed and fixed to our liking by slaughtering the elephant in the room that is Trump (and just for the record, I am not an advocate of slaughtering elephants or any other wildlife, it's just a metaphor). Such voters need too understand short term goals versus longterm goals. The longterm goals will never come to fruition if the short term springboard to them is squandered due to a desire for immediate gratification.

You and pnp keep demanding that there is a magic bullet that will suddenly swing the US political world on its ears and bring things around to your way of thinking with a single shot. And believe me, I am totally on board with that idea on its surface. But the reality is that such a magic bullet doesn't exist. It's going to take a series of slow volleys to swing things the way we'd both like.

Quote:
It’s not holding people hostage, it’s not being vindictive, they are just done voting for candidates that can’t authentically say they want to change things.


It absolutely is holding people hostage. It's extortion at its very definition. And quite frankly, it's ironic to see someone who won't acknowledge that try to lecture others about reason.

You mention a desire for "change". Guess what, things are radically changing for the worse in ways that our kids and their kids will have to suffer through. We'll never see the change we'd like if we don't stop the change that will derail such for decades.


Quote:
It’s actually a great opportunity for universal healthcare, free public college for anyone who wants it, and reversing the Republican tax cuts for the rich and returning to a more progressive and fair tax system.


All things I think most of us are mutually agreed upon as far as the desired goal. So let's concentrate on getting Trump out of the way so we can start working on finding common agreement on how best to make those things a reality.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:21 pm    Post subject:

Mueller asks court for 100 more blank subpoenas ahead of Manafort trial

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:17 am    Post subject:

2018 unemployment

Download: Download as an Excel File
Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2008 5.0 4.9 5.1 5.0 5.4 5.6 5.8 6.1 6.1 6.5 6.8 7.3
2009 7.8 8.3 8.7 9.0 9.4 9.5 9.5 9.6 9.8 10.0 9.9 9.9
2010 9.8 9.8 9.9 9.9 9.6 9.4 9.4 9.5 9.5 9.4 9.8 9.3
2011 9.1 9.0 9.0 9.1 9.0 9.1 9.0 9.0 9.0 8.8 8.6 8.5
2012 8.3 8.3 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.1 7.8 7.8 7.7 7.9
2013 8.0 7.7 7.5 7.6 7.5 7.5 7.3 7.2 7.2 7.2 6.9 6.7
2014 6.6 6.7 6.7 6.3 6.3 6.1 6.2 6.2 5.9 5.7 5.8 5.6
2015 5.7 5.5 5.5 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.2 5.1 5.0 5.0 5.0 5.0
2016 4.9 4.9 5.0 5.0 4.7 4.9 4.9 4.9 5.0 4.9 4.6 4.7
2017 4.8 4.7 4.5 4.4 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.4 4.2 4.1 4.1 4.1
2018 4.1 4.1 4.1 3.9 3.8 4.0

My saying the economy is healthy is not documented it's from listening to newscast, not FoxNews.

The stock market fluctuates it at times has hit all time highs and lows.

I don't think you should attack Trump in those areas. How do you attack him? I think the way is to beat the GET OUT AND VOTE drums. If what he's doing isn't enough to get Democrats to the polls we're in for rough times. Mid term elections will tell a lot. A low turnout is unacceptable.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject:

[quote="DaMuleRules"][quote="Surfitall"][quote="jodeke"][quote="Omar Little"]
jodeke wrote:


Quote:
It’s not holding people hostage, it’s not being vindictive, they are just done voting for candidates that can’t authentically say they want to change things.


It absolutely is holding people hostage. It's extortion at its very definition. And quite frankly, it's ironic to see someone who won't acknowledge that try to lecture others about reason.



How consistent are your beliefs on extortion and hostage taking? This really seems like a peculiar position you are taking.

Do you believe that workers have the right to go on strike if they feel they are being treated unfairly? If so, would you classify what they are doing as extortion? Would you say that those workers are holding their company or their fellow employees hostage?

When Rosa Parks refused to go to the back of the bus, was she holding the bus driver and the other passengers hostage? Was she extorting them with her inaction?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:14 am    Post subject:

trump humbled by our allies once again while russian bots and fox news push a different kind of Kabuki theater
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:20 am    Post subject:

VicXLakers wrote:
trump humbled by our allies once again while russian bots and fox news push a different kind of Kabuki theater


Trump and the GOP is shifting US alliance from Western Europe to Russia, might be beneficial to his family business
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject:

The Democrats do have a message if anyone has been paying attention:

Democrats want to save and expand affordable healthcare because Trump and the GOP keep chipping away at it. They are currently trying to gut pre-existing conditions.

Democrats want to protect and expand voting rights because GOP has used gerrymandering, restrictive voter I.D. laws and purging of voter roles to restrict the votes of Democrats.

Democrats want to protect a woman's right to choose her own healthcare decisions - whether that's abortion or access to contraceptives. The GOP is trying to restrict or do away with both.

Democrats want to preserve and expand the rights of the LGTBQ community. GOP is currently trying to curtail those rights state by state.

Democrats believe Climate Change is real and needs to be addressed; the Republicans either don't believe in Climate Change or don't care if the planet burns.

Democrats believe the EPA should protect the public's drinking water, breathable air that our natural parks should be protects. The GOP believes corporations should have the right to dump toxic chemicals as they wish because they put profits over people.

Democrats believe the government should try to craft policies that help the largest number of our citizens as possible. Republicans don't believe in government except to protect the 1%, protect corporations and to enrich themselves through shameless corruption.

Democrats believe that after working an entire lifetime, the elderly should be protected from have to worry about their healthcare through the Medicare program, and that Social Security should be preserved so that the elderly don't have to life in poverty.

Democrats believe in affordable education for all. The Republicans want to privatize public education and make it affordable only for the well off. In every state when GOP gets a hold of the budget, the first thing they cut is public education to give tax breaks to the wealthy.

This is all off the top of my head. If people think the Democrats don't stand for anything -- read the above and now you have no excuse for asking that question again.

If you follow the Twitter feeds of any prominent Democrats, they talk about this stuff every single day.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:30 am    Post subject:

And by the way, the Democratic platform after Clinton's nomination. was the most progressive Democratic platform in the history of the party and they incorporated most of Bernie Sanders concerns.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
And by the way, the Democratic platform after Clinton's nomination. was the most progressive Democratic platform in the history of the party and they incorporated most of Bernie Sanders concerns.


True, but here is a short article in Forbes from a Bernie voter who didn’t vote for Hillary. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2016/11/11/why-bernie-sanders-voters-like-me-stayed-home/#1fc635b3539f

Here is a quote that’s relevant: “Change. Hillary Clinton was not going to change anything. She told the American people she would, and they just took that as another lie. No one had any confidence in her because she was part of the problem they wanted to get rid of.”

I think I would add that these people thought they were voting for change when they voted for Obama too. The disappointment in his ability to drive meaningful change left them distrustful of establishment promises.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:19 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
The Democrats do have a message if anyone has been paying attention:

Democrats want to save and expand affordable healthcare because Trump and the GOP keep chipping away at it. They are currently trying to gut pre-existing conditions.

Democrats want to protect and expand voting rights because GOP has used gerrymandering, restrictive voter I.D. laws and purging of voter roles to restrict the votes of Democrats.

Democrats want to protect a woman's right to choose her own healthcare decisions - whether that's abortion or access to contraceptives. The GOP is trying to restrict or do away with both.

Democrats want to preserve and expand the rights of the LGTBQ community. GOP is currently trying to curtail those rights state by state.

Democrats believe Climate Change is real and needs to be addressed; the Republicans either don't believe in Climate Change or don't care if the planet burns.

Democrats believe the EPA should protect the public's drinking water, breathable air that our natural parks should be protects. The GOP believes corporations should have the right to dump toxic chemicals as they wish because they put profits over people.

Democrats believe the government should try to craft policies that help the largest number of our citizens as possible. Republicans don't believe in government except to protect the 1%, protect corporations and to enrich themselves through shameless corruption.

Democrats believe that after working an entire lifetime, the elderly should be protected from have to worry about their healthcare through the Medicare program, and that Social Security should be preserved so that the elderly don't have to life in poverty.

Democrats believe in affordable education for all. The Republicans want to privatize public education and make it affordable only for the well off. In every state when GOP gets a hold of the budget, the first thing they cut is public education to give tax breaks to the wealthy.

This is all off the top of my head. If people think the Democrats don't stand for anything -- read the above and now you have no excuse for asking that question again.

If you follow the Twitter feeds of any prominent Democrats, they talk about this stuff every single day.


All true, but are any of these policies new? Will any of these policies energize enough voters to get them off their asses to vote? This sounds like the same old DNC platform that has existed for the last...how many years??? which has lead the Republicans to control every branch of government.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:27 am    Post subject:

So looking to the future and showing I put my money where my mouth is...

I live in a progressive congressional district and our House rep used to be our mayor and now he's been in Congress about 3 or 4 terms. He's a white male who votes mostly progressive, but he doesn't necessarily go out of his way to make noise or go against the grain. He usually runs unapposed in the primary.

This year, a young woman of color who is an up and comer in local Boston politics is running against him in the primary. She is more progressive, has new ideas and worked on Boston city council to get things done in bi-partisan way.

I will probably vote for her in the primary because she's:

Young
More progressive
Brings new fresh ideas

But, if she loses, I'm not going to say f-it and stay home and pout. I will support my current congress person.

All this deflection onto other people for your own vote or lack thereof is a major cop out and shows an extreme degree of immaturity and naivete. If you don't like who's running, then run yourself.

At the end it's a binary choice -- who will do the most good (even if that's maintain the status quo) and who will do the most harm. Not making a choice is a cop out and is a statement that you don't care if the worst person wins and inflicts a lot of harm on other people. I'm sorry, it's hard to want to be in a fox hole with somebody of that mind set. And I'm not inclined to bend over backwards to educate them, cajole them or beg them to see reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject:

And here's another uncomfortable truth:

Most of Trump's/GOP's most egregious policies have not hurt white males. White males on the left had the luxury of placing their "personal convictions" ahead of the good of the country because they will be the last ones hurt by those polices (and women like Susan Sarandon who is rich and is protected by rich white privilege). Most women, POC and LGTBQ had no such luxury. White males knew there would be few if any consequences for them personally.

So the fact that relatively well off white males (like the progressive journalist/activist who wrote that article) actively made a choice to disregard the harm their choice might cause to me and others is something I find almost as repulsive as I find rich educated white people voting for Trump supporting Trump (another group who may find Trump distasteful but they don't care because they won't be hurt). They are smart enough to know better but don't care if others get hurt as long as they get their tax break.

JMHO.


Last edited by ChefLinda on Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:39 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
So looking to the future and showing I put my money where my mouth is...

I live in a progressive congressional district and our House rep used to be our mayor and now he's been in Congress about 3 or 4 terms. He's a white male who votes mostly progressive, but he doesn't necessarily go out of his way to make noise or go against the grain. He usually runs unapposed in the primary.

This year, a young woman of color who is an up and comer in local Boston politics is running against him in the primary. She is more progressive, has new ideas and worked on Boston city council to get things done in bi-partisan way.

I will probably vote for her in the primary because she's:

Young
More progressive
Brings new fresh ideas

But, if she loses, I'm not going to say f-it and stay home and pout. I will support my current congress person.

All this deflection onto other people for your own vote or lack thereof is a major cop out and shows an extreme degree of immaturity and naivete. If you don't like who's running, then run yourself.

At the end it's a binary choice -- who will do the most good (even if that's maintain the status quo) and who will do the most harm. Not making a choice is a cop out and is a statement that you don't care if the worst person wins and inflicts a lot of harm on other people. I'm sorry, it's hard to want to be in a fox hole with somebody of that mind set. And I'm not inclined to bend over backwards to educate them, cajole them or beg them to see reason.


This sounds exactly like Cortez's win, this is truly happening. Make no mistake, as energized as the left sounds to be, the right has been super energized these past 2 years. If you speak to folks, Republicans, they don't even care about what Trump says/does, they get their motivation from their perceived 'hate' against Trump (to a lesser extent white, and to an even lesser extent male)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:49 am    Post subject:

Let's face it the republicans are mad because the FBI/DOJ also investigate republicans now with out their approval
They are working hard to shut that down...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
The Democrats do have a message if anyone has been paying attention:

Democrats want to save and expand affordable healthcare because Trump and the GOP keep chipping away at it. They are currently trying to gut pre-existing conditions.

Democrats want to protect and expand voting rights because GOP has used gerrymandering, restrictive voter I.D. laws and purging of voter roles to restrict the votes of Democrats.

Democrats want to protect a woman's right to choose her own healthcare decisions - whether that's abortion or access to contraceptives. The GOP is trying to restrict or do away with both.

Democrats want to preserve and expand the rights of the LGTBQ community. GOP is currently trying to curtail those rights state by state.

Democrats believe Climate Change is real and needs to be addressed; the Republicans either don't believe in Climate Change or don't care if the planet burns.

Democrats believe the EPA should protect the public's drinking water, breathable air that our natural parks should be protects. The GOP believes corporations should have the right to dump toxic chemicals as they wish because they put profits over people.

Democrats believe the government should try to craft policies that help the largest number of our citizens as possible. Republicans don't believe in government except to protect the 1%, protect corporations and to enrich themselves through shameless corruption.

Democrats believe that after working an entire lifetime, the elderly should be protected from have to worry about their healthcare through the Medicare program, and that Social Security should be preserved so that the elderly don't have to life in poverty.

Democrats believe in affordable education for all. The Republicans want to privatize public education and make it affordable only for the well off. In every state when GOP gets a hold of the budget, the first thing they cut is public education to give tax breaks to the wealthy.

This is all off the top of my head. If people think the Democrats don't stand for anything -- read the above and now you have no excuse for asking that question again.

If you follow the Twitter feeds of any prominent Democrats, they talk about this stuff every single day.


I've been listening. The message is being heard but it's not making a difference. It's really the same-o, same-o. Time to take a different approach. Show the damage and push GET OUT AND VOTE. No use trying to appeal to Trumpateers, they've been brainwashed. Dems have to find a way to out shyster the shyster.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
The Democrats do have a message if anyone has been paying attention:

Democrats want to save and expand affordable healthcare because Trump and the GOP keep chipping away at it. They are currently trying to gut pre-existing conditions.

Democrats want to protect and expand voting rights because GOP has used gerrymandering, restrictive voter I.D. laws and purging of voter roles to restrict the votes of Democrats.

Democrats want to protect a woman's right to choose her own healthcare decisions - whether that's abortion or access to contraceptives. The GOP is trying to restrict or do away with both.

Democrats want to preserve and expand the rights of the LGTBQ community. GOP is currently trying to curtail those rights state by state.

Democrats believe Climate Change is real and needs to be addressed; the Republicans either don't believe in Climate Change or don't care if the planet burns.

Democrats believe the EPA should protect the public's drinking water, breathable air that our natural parks should be protects. The GOP believes corporations should have the right to dump toxic chemicals as they wish because they put profits over people.

Democrats believe the government should try to craft policies that help the largest number of our citizens as possible. Republicans don't believe in government except to protect the 1%, protect corporations and to enrich themselves through shameless corruption.

Democrats believe that after working an entire lifetime, the elderly should be protected from have to worry about their healthcare through the Medicare program, and that Social Security should be preserved so that the elderly don't have to life in poverty.

Democrats believe in affordable education for all. The Republicans want to privatize public education and make it affordable only for the well off. In every state when GOP gets a hold of the budget, the first thing they cut is public education to give tax breaks to the wealthy.

This is all off the top of my head. If people think the Democrats don't stand for anything -- read the above and now you have no excuse for asking that question again.

If you follow the Twitter feeds of any prominent Democrats, they talk about this stuff every single day.


All true, but are any of these policies new? Will any of these policies energize enough voters to get them off their asses to vote? This sounds like the same old DNC platform that has existed for the last...how many years??? which has lead the Republicans to control every branch of government.


I can understand if none of these issues are "your issues" that you might dismiss them as same old same old.

But if you are a young woman and a bunch of old white men are about to take away your access to abortion? That's pretty motivating.

If you are an older person (who is not a Fox News junkie cult member) you are pretty scared right now that you might not have Medicare and Social Security.

If you are one of the hundred million people with a pre-existing condition who might not be able to afford health insurance, I'd say that's pretty damn scary and motivating.

The Parkland kids saw their friends and teachers murdered and are registering tens of thousands of other young people who don't want to be murdered at school. Sounds like motivation to me.

LGTBQ people could have their marriage rights repealed or be refused adoption (like in Texas). You don't think that's motivating?

And if you are a browned skinned person, whether Latino or Muslim, you don't think they are pretty scared right now that Trump/GOP is coming for them next?

Just because no one is screaming "Income inequality! Millionaires and billionaires! Free education, free healthcare!" doesn't mean people aren't motivated. And those issues are important too. Democrats in congressional races tend to focus on the issues important to their local constituents. The Democratic Party doesn't have Fox News and the Koch brothers to issue a single talking point for all politicians to go out and parrot and lie about.

Telling the truth with nuance is harder and more boring than parroting a simplistic talking point. And the only way around that is for voters to participate by educating themselves first, then asking the relevant questions of the candidates. And NOT FALLING FOR WIKILEAKS/RUSSIAN/RIGHT WING PROPAGANDA BY REDUCING ALL OF A CANDIDATE'S history, experience, knowledge and policies into the phrase "corporate shill" in order to dismiss all that is good about their actual policies, especially versus Trump/GOP policies.


Last edited by ChefLinda on Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject:

My bet is that the theme this November will be women. Women candidates will win more than ever. Women will vote for Democrats in larger numbers than usual, as will suburban GOP and Independent women. The gender gap will be huge. That's my hunch.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
My bet is that the theme this November will be women. Women candidates will win more than ever. Women will vote for Democrats in larger numbers than usual, as will suburban GOP and Independent women. The gender gap will be huge. That's my hunch.


I found myself voting for a lot more women this time around in the local elections by the sheer fact that were more female candidates than in the past.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Meanwhile, the ignorant lying traitorous buffoon is single handedly trying to destroy NATO as a pretense for U.S. breaking away from Western alliances to join the likes of Russia, China and North Korea.

But let's rehash the primary process...


Like I said, thinking involves problem solving. Problem solving involves prioritizing.
and what you believe is the highest priority may not actually be....the highest priority.

You think, lets get this nut out of the office first.
Another person thinks, lets get the idiots that allow him to do a lot of these things out of office too and yes it can be done some what simultaneously.

We tried having a Dem in office with a red congress. that didnt work that well. Its time for the full on blue wave. Trump and anyone down with him has to go. Anyone on any side that agrees with nonsense that harms and does not helps has to go.

You dont boogie man scare people into voting against him and him alone. doing this will get you a dem president and a red congress which will end in a stalemate. No thank you, we've seen that movie before.

again, listen to the point I made about a lot of people hurting. They can't wait for incremental change. a Dem in the white house and a red congress is incremental change at best. we know this because we just ran this experiment with obama.

You think trump trying to realign our foes as our friends and our friends as our foes is bigger than someone being able to afford rent and food. its not. they are equal. in the eyes of those people in that situation.

I dont care if we are pals with russia and NK and foes with the western world if i'm homeless and/or my children are homeless. I dont care if we're pals with the western countries as well as our current nato allies and foes with russian, NK, etc if I'm homeless and/or my children are homeless.

My #1 priority(you said prioritize didnt you DMR? ) is to make sure i have the basics for myself and my family. once we get that settled than I can start being fearful of whats going on at an international level that can surely affect me as well.

I'm just telling you how people think. you dont have to agree but unless you're in that situation you can't say that its an incorrect line of thinking. How would you know, if you're not in that situation? Human nature says preserve yourself and your family first. Yes we are all one big family called americans as well. Which is why I said, we need to do both things at the exact same time.

You need universal healthcare at the same time you need to keep an eye on our international foes and sure up our friendships. The only way you can pull that off is to #1 put someone in the white house that is willing to be super aggressive with their plan for change. and you need a congress that will fall in line with said plan.

The only way you will pull that off is to make sure all of your voters are not just voting out of fear during the general election for president but they will become lifetime voters because they believe in the direction the dems are going in as a whole.You need the same people that you want to bring out to get trump out, to also come back during the mid terms and get these fools out of congress. It is doable. But to do it you can't use the same plan you've used since forever. It's time to switch it up a bit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject:

nickuku wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
My bet is that the theme this November will be women. Women candidates will win more than ever. Women will vote for Democrats in larger numbers than usual, as will suburban GOP and Independent women. The gender gap will be huge. That's my hunch.


I found myself voting for a lot more women this time around in the local elections by the sheer fact that were more female candidates than in the past.
This is true. and there were some people(shame on me) that I did not know. So in that regard I made sure to choose dem women and to take a step further dem women of different races(asians, blacks, latins). Obviously I chose some women I did know as well. But i agree, its time for an overall. us fellas have had the ball for awhile now. Time to try something new. I'm not afraid of change. I always think, why be fearful when you can always go back to what you were previously doing.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:30 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
So looking to the future and showing I put my money where my mouth is...

I live in a progressive congressional district and our House rep used to be our mayor and now he's been in Congress about 3 or 4 terms. He's a white male who votes mostly progressive, but he doesn't necessarily go out of his way to make noise or go against the grain. He usually runs unapposed in the primary.

This year, a young woman of color who is an up and comer in local Boston politics is running against him in the primary. She is more progressive, has new ideas and worked on Boston city council to get things done in bi-partisan way.

I will probably vote for her in the primary because she's:

Young
More progressive
Brings new fresh ideas

But, if she loses, I'm not going to say f-it and stay home and pout. I will support my current congress person.

All this deflection onto other people for your own vote or lack thereof is a major cop out and shows an extreme degree of immaturity and naivete. If you don't like who's running, then run yourself.

At the end it's a binary choice -- who will do the most good (even if that's maintain the status quo) and who will do the most harm. Not making a choice is a cop out and is a statement that you don't care if the worst person wins and inflicts a lot of harm on other people. I'm sorry, it's hard to want to be in a fox hole with somebody of that mind set. And I'm not inclined to bend over backwards to educate them, cajole them or beg them to see reason.

to the bolded, still vote shaming I see. but good job on your choice of changing things up.

You still dont get it. you can't use the same logic you've been taught a hundred years ago to get a different result.

people think Voting is your right and therefore you should VOTE.
while others NO that voting is a right and you have the right TO VOTE and NOT to Vote. And if you choose not to vote because you do not agree with the choices in front of you, that is your choice. and yes since this is your country too, you STILL have the right to complain about said choices. If it gets bad enough, these people will start running for positions. but here's the key. lets say these people run. they wont be voting for the status quo winner of the primary regardless. so that wont change and just because you run doesnt mean you will automatically win.

What you are doing is a change of heart or maybe thats always who you were when it comes to you taking a look at who's new and fresh and what needs to happen for today's society. most people dont think that way. they pick the status quo because its the easiest thing for them to do.you dont have to think, you dont have to research anything. just pick the obvious person thats been around for 100 years and call it a day. The only time these type of people will do something different is #1 if their lifestyle changes for the worse and it forces them to do something about it and start paying attention to these politicians. or #2 If some of their voter family starts protesting and telling them why they think its time for a change and taking a stand on that change. change does not happen by just doing the same thing over and over again and nicely asking/requesting change.

A no Vote is the equivalent of a Sit in Protest from the civil rights movement. Thats right. that hurt the people sitting in, that hurt the masses of black folks that were afraid to go that route and didnt want to make waves, that actually hurt some of the white business financially. If you want real change you have to stand firm even if and when it hurts. lets stop acting like that is strategy that doesnt work. it works. and we know it works now because you are starting to hear more stories about more progressive candidates, you're starting to see more wins by more progressive candidates. So as horrible as trump is, that no vote actually worked. Our own party has become complacent to some degree because they know the method you describe for voting is how everyone is taught. dont let another person from within the party or green party split the vote. so the most popular dems for better or for worse will continue to win if everyone that votes uses this logic. you will never have change doing it like that. now if everything was rolling smoothly I would agree with you, no need to rock the boat. just vote for the blue who wins the primary.

Truth is, you guys need to stop preaching that theme(vote for whoever wins the primary). no in the primary vote for the candidate with the best policies. Not the best candidate(meaning, not the person you think will get the most votes. vote for the person you BELIEVE has the best policies) if YOU the individual keep doing this multiple that times every dem voter and you will end up with a more progress candidate in these general elections.

What keeps that from happening is the idea that #1, i have to vote for the most popular person because thats the person who's going to win. No its not. the person that wins is the person that we all vote for. And until that is the true ideal for voting you will have a lot of youth(who we need to vote) not voting at all and may never vote even as they get older because they are so jaded with the idea of not having a say so since everyone is going to keep voting for the most famous person and therefore if they want someone else their vote will always be crushed by the popularity contest.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:40 am    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
2018 unemployment

Download: Download as an Excel File
Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2008 5.0 4.9 5.1 5.0 5.4 5.6 5.8 6.1 6.1 6.5 6.8 7.3
2009 7.8 8.3 8.7 9.0 9.4 9.5 9.5 9.6 9.8 10.0 9.9 9.9
2010 9.8 9.8 9.9 9.9 9.6 9.4 9.4 9.5 9.5 9.4 9.8 9.3
2011 9.1 9.0 9.0 9.1 9.0 9.1 9.0 9.0 9.0 8.8 8.6 8.5
2012 8.3 8.3 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.2 8.1 7.8 7.8 7.7 7.9
2013 8.0 7.7 7.5 7.6 7.5 7.5 7.3 7.2 7.2 7.2 6.9 6.7
2014 6.6 6.7 6.7 6.3 6.3 6.1 6.2 6.2 5.9 5.7 5.8 5.6
2015 5.7 5.5 5.5 5.4 5.5 5.3 5.2 5.1 5.0 5.0 5.0 5.0
2016 4.9 4.9 5.0 5.0 4.7 4.9 4.9 4.9 5.0 4.9 4.6 4.7
2017 4.8 4.7 4.5 4.4 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.4 4.2 4.1 4.1 4.1
2018 4.1 4.1 4.1 3.9 3.8 4.0

My saying the economy is healthy is not documented it's from listening to newscast, not FoxNews.

The stock market fluctuates it at times has hit all time highs and lows.

I don't think you should attack Trump in those areas. How do you attack him? I think the way is to beat the GET OUT AND VOTE drums. If what he's doing isn't enough to get Democrats to the polls we're in for rough times. Mid term elections will tell a lot. A low turnout is unacceptable.

Jo, are you guys missing the point on purpose or actually really missing the point?

its not about trump. its about what allows a trump to succeed.

America, lucky enough, is not a dictatorship. we dont have one king that rules all. we have supposed checks and balances. Those checks and balances are not doing their job at the moment because they are in cahoots with trump. meaning they are just as evil as he is. people are like , "i hope we impeach trump." yeah me too. but do i want pence to run it? HELLL NO. But let our own dems tell it "lesser of two evils." No, the heck with that nonsense. Get trump out, get pence out get all of them out of there that are about the nonsense. you can't do that by just scaring people into voting against TRUMP at one presidential election. You need the same/similar steam when the midterms come around. How do you keep the same momentum when there is no one Boogie man to make people come out and vote?

Not one of you have answer this question. I have at minimum given you an option of how that can be done. You can't just choose any blue. You have to be strategic. You didnt get the kids to come out and vote, you didnt get the super leftees to come out and vote. You need them to vote trump out but you also need them to vote in a blue congress. This means you will have to choose someone of their liking. call it being held hostage or whatever. it doesnt matter. these people let trump get voted in because they were that serious about not voting for another status quo dem. pay attention, stop vote shaming, and be strategic. or get trump out and still have an all red congress running the show or stopping every good thing our blue president tries to do. Your choice.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject:

In the last several elections, Democrats have outvoted Republicans. The reason why that hasn't been reflected in the outcome is: Gerrymandering.

In 2010, the census year, GOP ran candidates at every level to take control of states political machinery. This was coordinated and financed by groups like the Heritage Foundation and Koch Brothers. They planned it and executed in order to legally steal elections. They started gerrymandering districts so that even if the Democrats won the popular vote they would lose the election.

With even more state power and SCOTUS gutting the voting rights act, the GOP then proceeded to use census data to come up with voter restriction and voter ID laws that specifically targeted decreasing the black vote, young vote and of course the Democratic vote. They also started purging voter rolls so that if someone didn't vote in the mid-term, they were de-activated for the presidential year. They did this with no notice to the individual voters. Voters showed up to vote and were turned away because they weren't registered (when they thought they were) or because they didn't have the new I.D.

All of this depressed Democratic turnout.

Is that the fault of the Democratic party? Is it the fault of the Republican party? Is it the fault the individual voter for not knowing their status and new I.D. laws?

Here's what happened:

Clinton won the popular vote by almost 3 million more votes and got more votes than any white male in the history of presidential elections. Only Obama got more votes.

Democrats won the popular vote for Congress, but lost seats because of gerrymandering.

The only way to right the ship is to elect as many Democrats as possible at every level so that when the 2020 census comes and it's time for redidstricting again, the Democrats can fix the rigged gerrymandered district to level the playing field.

Elect Democrats so they can enact legislation to guarantee automatic voter registration at age 18 with no need to re-register.

Elect Democrats so then can fix the voting rights act and prevent states from enacting laws that cheat on behalf of either party.

But here's what won't work: trashing and complaining about the Democratic party when it's the Republican party that is primarily responsible for the rigged situation we now find ourselves in.

If you want things to change, it starts by electing Democrats at every level.

No good change will come about by sitting at home. Period. Call it vote shaming, call it whatever you want. It's the truth.
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