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Wilt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject:

Bernie once again had an opportunity to counter the anti-socialism argument when Pete flat out lied that Bernie believes that capitalism is the root of all evil. Bernie has never said that. Heck, even Marx never said it. Marx acknowledged the productive and innovative powers of capitalism, but criticized its negative effects, which was mass poverty and the dehumanization of the worker.

Bernie could have said something like, "I don't believe capitalism is the root of all evil, but I think unchecked capitalism is dangerous. Whether it's healthcare or education, the government has a role to play to make sure that no one is left behind. That is what democratic socialism is all about."
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
Bernie once again had an opportunity to counter the anti-socialism argument when Pete flat out lied that Bernie believes that capitalism is the root of all evil. Bernie has never said that. Heck, even Marx never said it. Marx acknowledged the productive and innovative powers of capitalism, but criticized its negative effects, which was mass poverty and the dehumanization of the worker.

Bernie could have said something like, "I don't believe capitalism is the root of all evil, but I think unchecked capitalism is dangerous. Whether it's healthcare or education, the government has a role to play to make sure that no one is left behind. That is what democratic socialism is all about."


Pete also accidentally gifted him a pivot to Denmark that made Sanders chuckle.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:47 am    Post subject:

I don't think the Denmark card is effective in the long term. Americans don't aspire to move to Denmark. He has to explain why democratic socialism is humane and why unbridled capitalism is inhumane.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject:

Ted wrote:
governator wrote:
Klobuchar looked like she was about to cry over this Mexico question, this is just like Pete’s AA question... but she held on, strong work, it would’ve been over for her if she cried


I noticed that too. She was getting upset and angry and her voice was cracking. If Pete went after her further it would've made him look terrible. But I'm sorry, she doesn't have it. She fumbles her words and just seems so unprepared. Everyone else on the stage asides from Klobuchar and Bloomberg are able to hold their own in a debate. Warren came out aggressive which I thought was great, I think she did well tonight. Bernie was good. Biden had his moments someone must have slipped him some Adderall tonight. Pete is all one liners and generic platitudes. I think Warren came out on top tonight, and Bernie held steady. Interesting to see how the rest of the week plays out.


If a stapler was within her reaching distance that Telemundo moderator would have been beaned in the head. But Pete's constant and petty attacks were desperate and cringe worthy.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:50 am    Post subject:

George Zimmerman is suing Elizabeth Warren and Pete Buttigieg. That should keep their names in the news. I googled Zimmerman's net worth. It's reported to be 98 million dollars. I find that hard to believe.
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According to Wikipedia, Forbes, IMDb & Various Online resources, famous George Zimmerman George Zimmerman's net worth is $98 Million at the age of 35 years old. He earned the money being a professional George Zimmerman. He is from VA.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:57 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
I don't think the Denmark card is effective in the long term. Americans don't aspire to move to Denmark. He has to explain why democratic socialism is humane and why unbridled capitalism is inhumane.


I'm not sure any of it matters in the long run. Oddly, the narrative pushed by his rivals that he can't achieve anything other than renaming a post office probably helps lessen the fear of America becoming Venezuela. He's likeable. He's not Trump. That's enough.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:06 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Wilt wrote:
I don't think the Denmark card is effective in the long term. Americans don't aspire to move to Denmark. He has to explain why democratic socialism is humane and why unbridled capitalism is inhumane.


I'm not sure any of it matters in the long run. Oddly, the narrative pushed by his rivals that he can't achieve anything other than renaming a post office probably helps lessen the fear of America becoming Venezuela. He's likeable. He's not Trump. That's enough.


I don't think if someone is down to parsing it into, "I'm scared of/against his ideas, but hey, he didn't pass anything as a lawmaker so he's going to be safe as a president", you're probably not getting that voter. And quite frankly, swing/low information voters don't tend to think things through in some sort of logical progression like that.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:10 am    Post subject:

How long will it take Trump to pardon Stone?

Roger Stone sentenced to 40 months in prison amid Trump complaints against prosecutors

LINK

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Judge Amy Berman Jackson spent much of the hearing criticizing Stone's actions and also defended the Justice Department prosecutors at the center of last week's drama.

"At his core, Mr. Stone is an insecure person who craves and recklessly pursues attention," she said before issuing her sentence, which also includes 2 years of probation.

Without mentioning Trump's name, Jackson said claims Stone was being singled out for his politics were wrong.

Stone was not prosecuted "for standing up for the President," she said. "He was prosecuted for covering up for the President."

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:13 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Ted wrote:
governator wrote:
Klobuchar looked like she was about to cry over this Mexico question, this is just like Pete’s AA question... but she held on, strong work, it would’ve been over for her if she cried


I noticed that too. She was getting upset and angry and her voice was cracking. If Pete went after her further it would've made him look terrible. But I'm sorry, she doesn't have it. She fumbles her words and just seems so unprepared. Everyone else on the stage asides from Klobuchar and Bloomberg are able to hold their own in a debate. Warren came out aggressive which I thought was great, I think she did well tonight. Bernie was good. Biden had his moments someone must have slipped him some Adderall tonight. Pete is all one liners and generic platitudes. I think Warren came out on top tonight, and Bernie held steady. Interesting to see how the rest of the week plays out.


If a stapler was within her reaching distance that Telemundo moderator would have beaned in the head. But Pete's constant and petty attacks were desperate and cringe worthy.

yeah, the latino moderator wasn't asking a question, just making a statement about Klobuchar's gaffe but the whole exchange didn't look good for all of them (Pete/Klobuchar/moderator)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:53 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Ted wrote:
governator wrote:
Klobuchar looked like she was about to cry over this Mexico question, this is just like Pete’s AA question... but she held on, strong work, it would’ve been over for her if she cried


I noticed that too. She was getting upset and angry and her voice was cracking. If Pete went after her further it would've made him look terrible. But I'm sorry, she doesn't have it. She fumbles her words and just seems so unprepared. Everyone else on the stage asides from Klobuchar and Bloomberg are able to hold their own in a debate. Warren came out aggressive which I thought was great, I think she did well tonight. Bernie was good. Biden had his moments someone must have slipped him some Adderall tonight. Pete is all one liners and generic platitudes. I think Warren came out on top tonight, and Bernie held steady. Interesting to see how the rest of the week plays out.


If a stapler was within her reaching distance that Telemundo moderator would have beaned in the head. But Pete's constant and petty attacks were desperate and cringe worthy.

yeah, the latino moderator wasn't asking a question, just making a statement about Klobuchar's gaffe but the whole exchange didn't look good for all of them (Pete/Klobuchar/moderator)


Maybe the reason Vanessa Hauc was seemingly hostile towards Klobuchar was because of her voting on boarder issues.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject:

Best case scenario if Bernie is the nominee, he loses popular vote by a couple million and gets blown out in the EC.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:22 pm    Post subject:

That scenario would be disastrous. It would mean 4 more years of Trump.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:29 pm    Post subject:

Roger O. Thornhill wrote:
Best case scenario if Bernie is the nominee, he loses popular vote by a couple million and gets blown out in the EC.


This is probably statistically impossible. I don't know what are the states from 2016 you're expecting him lose. I think he flips Wisconsin and Michigan right off the bat.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:18 pm    Post subject:

Melissa Rohlin wrote:
Feb 20, 2020ReplyRetweetFavorite
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:34 pm    Post subject:

Will Robert Mueller go down as a Trump accomplice if he doesn't do something to stop him?

Oh wow.. I lost my profession... or could he be jailed if he went out and started telling people in legalese how badly he wanted to indict Trump for so many crimes but Barr would not let him etc.. something to wake my fellow americans from their stupor
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:12 pm    Post subject:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mayor-pete-says-partnered-black-184528532.html

That's according to ABC News, which reached out to the owners:

"I stand for what I stand for and I didn't say I had a partnership," Diane Cole, the owner of Diane's Kitchen, told ABC News on Friday, Feb. 14. After being asked by ABC News about Cole's reaction, the campaign sent a series of messages to Cole trying to persuade her to change her position so it would more closely match the language Buttigieg used in his op-ed.

Cole told ABC News that the campaign misspelled her name in at least one of the emails. She ultimately told the campaign, "It sounds like you're saying that I am your business partner. I'm only going to accept that you all stopped in while you were campaigning in South Carolina and I welcomed you all."

The story was the same with Atlantis Restaurant. The Buttigieg campaign held an event at the restaurant in January, but owner Wendell Varner didn't learn that the campaign claimed they were in a partnership until ABC News contacted him. Varner said, "It's a little disheartening to say that—that they would say that we have a partnership with them when we don't." The Buttigieg campaign responded to that statement by insisting that Atlantis Restaurant said it was "proud to partner with Mayor Pete in January." Varner then replied to ABC News again to stress that he was in no way partnered with Buttigieg, saying his relationship with the campaign went no further than "they paid us to have an event at our restaurant."

This isn't the first time the Buttigieg campaign has made overblown claims about black support. In November, the campaign touted a list of some 400 officials in South Carolina had backed Buttigieg's Frederick Douglass Plan. But an investigation by The Intercept found that the three people named in the promotional material for the endorsements—Columbia City Councilwoman Tameika Devine, state representative Ivory Thigpen, and chair of the state party’s Black Caucus Johnnie Cordero—never actually endorsed Buttigieg's plan. Thigpen, in fact, told The Intercept, "It was clear to me, or at least I thought I made it clear to them, that I was a strong Bernie Sanders supporter—actually co-chair of the state, and I was not seeking to endorse their candidate or the plan."

And last week, the Buttigieg campaign told CNN that actor and comedian Keegan-Michael Key was set to announce his support for the former mayor at early voting events in Nevada. That, it turns out, wasn't accurate either. The campaign released a statement walking back Key's anticipated support, saying, "Pete's campaign is excited for the voter registration support Mr. Key brings, although Keegan-Michael has not officially endorsed any candidate."
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:27 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mayor-pete-says-partnered-black-184528532.html

That's according to ABC News, which reached out to the owners:

"I stand for what I stand for and I didn't say I had a partnership," Diane Cole, the owner of Diane's Kitchen, told ABC News on Friday, Feb. 14. After being asked by ABC News about Cole's reaction, the campaign sent a series of messages to Cole trying to persuade her to change her position so it would more closely match the language Buttigieg used in his op-ed.

Cole told ABC News that the campaign misspelled her name in at least one of the emails. She ultimately told the campaign, "It sounds like you're saying that I am your business partner. I'm only going to accept that you all stopped in while you were campaigning in South Carolina and I welcomed you all."

The story was the same with Atlantis Restaurant. The Buttigieg campaign held an event at the restaurant in January, but owner Wendell Varner didn't learn that the campaign claimed they were in a partnership until ABC News contacted him. Varner said, "It's a little disheartening to say that—that they would say that we have a partnership with them when we don't." The Buttigieg campaign responded to that statement by insisting that Atlantis Restaurant said it was "proud to partner with Mayor Pete in January." Varner then replied to ABC News again to stress that he was in no way partnered with Buttigieg, saying his relationship with the campaign went no further than "they paid us to have an event at our restaurant."

This isn't the first time the Buttigieg campaign has made overblown claims about black support. In November, the campaign touted a list of some 400 officials in South Carolina had backed Buttigieg's Frederick Douglass Plan. But an investigation by The Intercept found that the three people named in the promotional material for the endorsements—Columbia City Councilwoman Tameika Devine, state representative Ivory Thigpen, and chair of the state party’s Black Caucus Johnnie Cordero—never actually endorsed Buttigieg's plan. Thigpen, in fact, told The Intercept, "It was clear to me, or at least I thought I made it clear to them, that I was a strong Bernie Sanders supporter—actually co-chair of the state, and I was not seeking to endorse their candidate or the plan."

And last week, the Buttigieg campaign told CNN that actor and comedian Keegan-Michael Key was set to announce his support for the former mayor at early voting events in Nevada. That, it turns out, wasn't accurate either. The campaign released a statement walking back Key's anticipated support, saying, "Pete's campaign is excited for the voter registration support Mr. Key brings, although Keegan-Michael has not officially endorsed any candidate."


I was going to remark on how faking black endorsements has apparently been normalized by him so much that it doesn't even warrant a question in a debate, but then figured why bother. His 15 minutes are up.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:40 pm    Post subject:

Quinnipiac has polls from Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan.

Basically, all Democrats lead Trump in Pennsylvania and Michigan, but Trump leads all Democrats in Wisconsin.

Assuming we can't win any other Trump states, we need all three above. It might come down to Wisconsin. No wonder the Democratic convention is there.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:41 pm    Post subject:

Roger O. Thornhill wrote:
Best case scenario if Bernie is the nominee, he loses popular vote by a couple million and gets blown out in the EC.


This is shaping up like labor party leader Jeremy Corbyn in the UK, which got blown out by the conservative party.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:45 pm    Post subject:

JerryWest_44 wrote:
Roger O. Thornhill wrote:
Best case scenario if Bernie is the nominee, he loses popular vote by a couple million and gets blown out in the EC.


This is shaping up like labor party leader Jeremy Corbyn in the UK, which got blown out by the conservative party.


No, it's not. It'll be a close election, whoever wins. A Republican can't blow out any Democrat with the way the electorate is. It's been more than 30 years since a Republican won an election comfortably. If Trump was confident about the election, he wouldn't solicit foreign intervention.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:50 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
JerryWest_44 wrote:
Roger O. Thornhill wrote:
Best case scenario if Bernie is the nominee, he loses popular vote by a couple million and gets blown out in the EC.


This is shaping up like labor party leader Jeremy Corbyn in the UK, which got blown out by the conservative party.


No, it's not. It'll be a close election, whoever wins. A Republican can't blow out any Democrat with the way the electorate is. It's been more than 30 years since a Republican won an election comfortably. If Trump was confident about the election, he wouldn't solicit foreign intervention.


To be more specific IMHO if Bernie is the nominee -- In addition to Trump winning - there will be Republican seat gains in he house and in the Senate.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:50 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Ted wrote:
governator wrote:
Klobuchar looked like she was about to cry over this Mexico question, this is just like Pete’s AA question... but she held on, strong work, it would’ve been over for her if she cried


I noticed that too. She was getting upset and angry and her voice was cracking. If Pete went after her further it would've made him look terrible. But I'm sorry, she doesn't have it. She fumbles her words and just seems so unprepared. Everyone else on the stage asides from Klobuchar and Bloomberg are able to hold their own in a debate. Warren came out aggressive which I thought was great, I think she did well tonight. Bernie was good. Biden had his moments someone must have slipped him some Adderall tonight. Pete is all one liners and generic platitudes. I think Warren came out on top tonight, and Bernie held steady. Interesting to see how the rest of the week plays out.


If a stapler was within her reaching distance that Telemundo moderator would have been beaned in the head. But Pete's constant and petty attacks were desperate and cringe worthy.


LOL, no, and that's not how most are seeing that. Amy came off looking far worse last night. And I say this as someone who likes both she and Pete. What he did was not angry--in fact, nothing he does is angry--he was debating. She made a gaffe, and he brought it up in a fair way. This is a debate in Nevada, a state with a lot of latino voters, and, yes, the Telemundo reporter brought it up because it's an issue that latino voters fairly would like to have an answer on. So how is it unfair game when Pete brings up the mistake and also relates it to her votes on border issues and her assignment on certain committees? It's a fair question to ask why she didn't know the president's name. Now, look, could a person in a momentary fog simply forget? Of course! However, that's not what I think happened during her interview. She just simply said "no", she didn't know the name. She didn't offer up anything to suggest that it was on the tip of her tongue, that she was just having a momentary lapse, anything like that. So she doesn't get that benefit of the doubt from me, and, again, I say this as someone who likes her, generally. In my judgment, she simply didn't know the dude's name. Even during the debate last night, she had to look at her notes when saying his name.

So no, that was not a petty attack by Pete. It was relevant. And when she defensively said "are you saying I'm dumb?", that wasn't his argument or what he implied, and then when she said "I guess no one is as perfect as you, Pete", that was petty. She also flatly interrupted him while he was giving an answer to a question when he was called on. I'm not telling anyone to like Pete, but as someone who considers himself a moderate and who probably has those two as his first two choices, she's the one that came off looking far worse last night. I thought she handily won the New Hampshire debate. But she was awful last night and looked rattled.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Ted wrote:
governator wrote:
Klobuchar looked like she was about to cry over this Mexico question, this is just like Pete’s AA question... but she held on, strong work, it would’ve been over for her if she cried


I noticed that too. She was getting upset and angry and her voice was cracking. If Pete went after her further it would've made him look terrible. But I'm sorry, she doesn't have it. She fumbles her words and just seems so unprepared. Everyone else on the stage asides from Klobuchar and Bloomberg are able to hold their own in a debate. Warren came out aggressive which I thought was great, I think she did well tonight. Bernie was good. Biden had his moments someone must have slipped him some Adderall tonight. Pete is all one liners and generic platitudes. I think Warren came out on top tonight, and Bernie held steady. Interesting to see how the rest of the week plays out.


If a stapler was within her reaching distance that Telemundo moderator would have been beaned in the head. But Pete's constant and petty attacks were desperate and cringe worthy.


LOL, no, and that's not how most are seeing that. Amy came off looking far worse last night. And I say this as someone who likes both she and Pete. What he did was not angry--in fact, nothing he does is angry--he was debating. She made a gaffe, and he brought it up in a fair way. This is a debate in Nevada, a state with a lot of latino voters, and, yes, the Telemundo reporter brought it up because it's an issue that latino voters fairly would like to have an answer on. So how is it unfair game when Pete brings up the mistake and also relates it to her votes on border issues and her assignment on certain committees? It's a fair question to ask why she didn't know the president's name. Now, look, could a person in a momentary fog simply forget? Of course! However, that's not what I think happened during her interview. She just simply said "no", she didn't know the name. She didn't offer up anything to suggest that it was on the tip of her tongue, that she was just having a momentary lapse, anything like that. So she doesn't get that benefit of the doubt from me, and, again, I say this as someone who likes her, generally. In my judgment, she simply didn't know the dude's name. Even during the debate last night, she had to look at her notes when saying his name.

So no, that was not a petty attack by Pete. It was relevant. And when she defensively said "are you saying I'm dumb?", that wasn't his argument or what he implied, and then when she said "I guess no one is as perfect as you, Pete", that was petty. She also flatly interrupted him while he was giving an answer to a question when he was called on. I'm not telling anyone to like Pete, but as someone who considers himself a moderate and who probably has those two as his first two choices, she's the one that came off looking far worse last night. I thought she handily won the New Hampshire debate. But she was awful last night and looked rattled.


She was pissed. I believe she left the stage immediately at the close of the debate without shaking hands.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject:

^
Well, it's not exactly news that she has an angry streak; it's just that it's supposedly behind closed doors. I brought this up last night, but I'll just ask it again: do we think that if a woman had been so rudely interrupted flatly like Pete was last night, it wouldn't have been a major talking point? And yet he remained composed throughout. I miss Cory Booker on that stage, by the way. Always conducts himself with composure, grace, and vitality. Never saw any hubris from him. I thought he had a positive, inclusive message, and that resonates with me.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:04 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
I don't think the Denmark card is effective in the long term. Americans don't aspire to move to Denmark. He has to explain why democratic socialism is humane and why unbridled capitalism is inhumane.
He talked for a couple of minutes about democratic socialism and "billionaire socialism" in reply to Bloomberg and did well there. I missed it myself but saw it today online.
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