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KindCrippler2000
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 Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So the problem really isn't Mozgov, it is the secondary defenders who are not rotating. |
Mozgov isn't the entire problem, but it would be inaccurate to say he isn't part of it. He's just not making a mark on the defensive end, which is why it would be unfair to call him a rim protector at this point. He isn't a rim protector by any metric out there... at least not this season.
Here's the rundown on individual rim protection data: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%207-0&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*20
Out of all active 7 footers averaging 20 or more minutes a game, Mozgov's rim protection data is on par with Pau Gasol or Nikola Vucevic. Opponents shoot 51% while he's defending at the rim, which ranks him in bottom tier of 7-footers in the NBA. If we're talking about actual rim protection, a guy like Alex Len would be a significant upgrade over Mozgov. I understand Mozgov does other things well enough on offense, but he's as much of a rim protector as Pau Gasol is at this point in his career. |
help me out...because I really do not know....is that 51% count when Mozgov is on the court or when he is the individual player contesting the shot at the rim? |
It the % the opponent is shooting when Mozgov is contesting the shot. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So the problem really isn't Mozgov, it is the secondary defenders who are not rotating. |
Mozgov isn't the entire problem, but it would be inaccurate to say he isn't part of it. He's just not making a mark on the defensive end, which is why it would be unfair to call him a rim protector at this point. He isn't a rim protector by any metric out there... at least not this season.
Here's the rundown on individual rim protection data: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%207-0&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*20
Out of all active 7 footers averaging 20 or more minutes a game, Mozgov's rim protection data is on par with Pau Gasol or Nikola Vucevic. Opponents shoot 51% while he's defending at the rim, which ranks him in bottom tier of 7-footers in the NBA. If we're talking about actual rim protection, a guy like Alex Len would be a significant upgrade over Mozgov. I understand Mozgov does other things well enough on offense, but he's as much of a rim protector as Pau Gasol is at this point in his career. |
help me out...because I really do not know....is that 51% count when Mozgov is on the court or when he is the individual player contesting the shot at the rim? |
It the % the opponent is shooting when Mozgov is contesting the shot. |
Of course that stat doesn't have the ability to differentiate when Moz rotates and his man scores (b/c his teammates didn't rotate). He gets the short end of the stick statistically for the right basketball move.
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defense
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| If you ask me our most notable need is perimeter defense whether through New players or improvement in the ones we have. I think mosgov and black do a good job challenging shots. We get broken down way too easy and lack rotation after the initial challenge. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So the problem really isn't Mozgov, it is the secondary defenders who are not rotating. |
Mozgov isn't the entire problem, but it would be inaccurate to say he isn't part of it. He's just not making a mark on the defensive end, which is why it would be unfair to call him a rim protector at this point. He isn't a rim protector by any metric out there... at least not this season.
Here's the rundown on individual rim protection data: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%207-0&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*20
Out of all active 7 footers averaging 20 or more minutes a game, Mozgov's rim protection data is on par with Pau Gasol or Nikola Vucevic. Opponents shoot 51% while he's defending at the rim, which ranks him in bottom tier of 7-footers in the NBA. If we're talking about actual rim protection, a guy like Alex Len would be a significant upgrade over Mozgov. I understand Mozgov does other things well enough on offense, but he's as much of a rim protector as Pau Gasol is at this point in his career. |
help me out...because I really do not know....is that 51% count when Mozgov is on the court or when he is the individual player contesting the shot at the rim? |
It the % the opponent is shooting when Mozgov is contesting the shot. |
Of course that stat doesn't have the ability to differentiate when Moz rotates and his man scores (b/c his teammates didn't rotate). He gets the short end of the stick statistically for the right basketball move. |
If this is true, Randle and Nance (and even TRob) are very poor in this aspect of team defense.....but I really could not gauge how much effect they have on this number.....it would seem like a decent amount. |
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iimarshon
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Lakers need shooters |
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| Lakerpark wrote: | First of all, I am partial to good shooters...deadeyed, marksmen, pure shooters....
Why is it that the Lakers almost never have great shooters? They have had their share of low percentage gunners but no deadeyed pure shooters.
It seems that game after game, they play against teams that have a red hot shooter. I guy who can hit a wide open shot (especially a 3 pointer).
Just recently we saw, Galloway and Daniels....where did these guys come from? Were they high draft picks? CBA or D League guys? There was another guy early in the season or in the pre season (whose name I forget) came in off the bench and hit a bunch of three pointers against the Lakers.
Look at the crap the Lakers call or have called shooters: Ryan Kelly? lol
Clarkson is disappointing me as a shooter. After seeing those off season videos I thought he learned how to shoot. Now all JC can do is drive to the basket and is looking afraid to shoot.
And what has happened to Brandon Ingram's shot?
I liked GLock's ability to shoot and they gave up on him.
Penberthy was not great.
Coby Karl was nothing.
Brad Holland never fulfilled his potential
Meeks was pretty good.
DLo is improving.
Clarkson is very disappointing.
I believe Nick Young is pretty good...maybe more a streak shooter than a pure shooter.
Do the Lakers think that a great shooter is made and not born?
I believe you can improve someone's form/fundamentals and improve their shooting percentage somewhat, but they will never be a lights out shooter.
Korver
McDermott
Hield
Klay
The last great shooters the Lakers had:
Goodrich
Brian Winters
Cazzie Russell
Glen Rice?
Sorry, my thoughts are all jumbled and not well composed...but you get my drift.
Thanks. |
Problem is Korver isn't as good anymore and is extremely one dimensional.
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iimarshon
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think we need defenders more than anything.
And ideally a ball handler/play maker to start alongside DLO like George Hill or Jrue Holiday.
MOZ has been good. I like him. But i wish we had a true blocker like Noel/Whiteside type.
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zambia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Luvi wrote: | | If anything, we need rim protection. |
I thought the Lakers were paying Mozgov 16 mil for rim protection |
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Laker's Fan
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Joined: 27 Jun 2002
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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They just need Randle, Nance, Ingram and Deng to shoot well more consistently from distance. It's part of the process with getting comfortable with all the new thing they've been facing this year. It will come (even if only next year).
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KindCrippler2000
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So the problem really isn't Mozgov, it is the secondary defenders who are not rotating. |
Mozgov isn't the entire problem, but it would be inaccurate to say he isn't part of it. He's just not making a mark on the defensive end, which is why it would be unfair to call him a rim protector at this point. He isn't a rim protector by any metric out there... at least not this season.
Here's the rundown on individual rim protection data: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%207-0&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*20
Out of all active 7 footers averaging 20 or more minutes a game, Mozgov's rim protection data is on par with Pau Gasol or Nikola Vucevic. Opponents shoot 51% while he's defending at the rim, which ranks him in bottom tier of 7-footers in the NBA. If we're talking about actual rim protection, a guy like Alex Len would be a significant upgrade over Mozgov. I understand Mozgov does other things well enough on offense, but he's as much of a rim protector as Pau Gasol is at this point in his career. |
help me out...because I really do not know....is that 51% count when Mozgov is on the court or when he is the individual player contesting the shot at the rim? |
It the % the opponent is shooting when Mozgov is contesting the shot. |
Of course that stat doesn't have the ability to differentiate when Moz rotates and his man scores (b/c his teammates didn't rotate). He gets the short end of the stick statistically for the right basketball move. |
The Cavs had a similar issue with Mozgov last season, so it's not entirely inaccurate. Replacing him with TT yielded better defensive numbers. Mozgov is good for certain things, but he has glaring limitations on the defensive end. While he has good verticality and puts his hands up more often than not, he's not going to alter many shots in the paint due to his lack of lift. A rim protector is supposed to be that last line of defense. IMO, his defensive peak was two seasons ago with the Cavs, but he was 28 and had a more decent set of legs. The defensive dynamic the Lakers had hoped to get with Deng and Mozgov is not working out the way they envisioned.
The real benefit of having Mozgov right now is his offense, although he's not the passer everyone thought he'd be. |
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Vin
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| I'am not sure vodka is the answer to our problems. |
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King Randle
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| DLO, Young, Williams, Clarkson, Calderon are all good shooters. 3 of those guys are currently out. Ingram is not a good shooter at the moment, but hopefully come next year he'll be better. I like our nucleus...right now its about staying healthy and getting experience. |
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Dr. Funkbot
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Location: Eagle Rock
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So the problem really isn't Mozgov, it is the secondary defenders who are not rotating. |
Mozgov isn't the entire problem, but it would be inaccurate to say he isn't part of it. He's just not making a mark on the defensive end, which is why it would be unfair to call him a rim protector at this point. He isn't a rim protector by any metric out there... at least not this season.
Here's the rundown on individual rim protection data: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%207-0&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*20
Out of all active 7 footers averaging 20 or more minutes a game, Mozgov's rim protection data is on par with Pau Gasol or Nikola Vucevic. Opponents shoot 51% while he's defending at the rim, which ranks him in bottom tier of 7-footers in the NBA. If we're talking about actual rim protection, a guy like Alex Len would be a significant upgrade over Mozgov. I understand Mozgov does other things well enough on offense, but he's as much of a rim protector as Pau Gasol is at this point in his career. |
help me out...because I really do not know....is that 51% count when Mozgov is on the court or when he is the individual player contesting the shot at the rim? |
It the % the opponent is shooting when Mozgov is contesting the shot. |
Of course that stat doesn't have the ability to differentiate when Moz rotates and his man scores (b/c his teammates didn't rotate). He gets the short end of the stick statistically for the right basketball move. |
The Cavs had a similar issue with Mozgov last season, so it's not entirely inaccurate. Replacing him with TT yielded better defensive numbers. Mozgov is good for certain things, but he has glaring limitations on the defensive end. While he has good verticality and puts his hands up more often than not, he's not going to alter many shots in the paint due to his lack of lift. A rim protector is supposed to be that last line of defense. IMO, his defensive peak was two seasons ago with the Cavs, but he was 28 and had a more decent set of legs. The defensive dynamic the Lakers had hoped to get with Deng and Mozgov is not working out the way they envisioned.
The real benefit of having Mozgov right now is his offense, although he's not the passer everyone thought he'd be. |
It is a very valid point that this season, Mozzer is making the correct rotation, only to have his man get the dunk because there was no secondary rotation. That will clean up with time as the team learns how to play better D.
Mozzer was hurt last year fell out of the rotation. You go with what is working for you. Mozzer is quicker than I thought this season and he does not need much lift when he is 7'1" already. Think how valuable a slow guy with no lift like Bogut was to the Warriors rim protection. They could not win against the cavs when he was out.
And we have Zublocka waiting in the wings!
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So the problem really isn't Mozgov, it is the secondary defenders who are not rotating. |
Mozgov isn't the entire problem, but it would be inaccurate to say he isn't part of it. He's just not making a mark on the defensive end, which is why it would be unfair to call him a rim protector at this point. He isn't a rim protector by any metric out there... at least not this season.
Here's the rundown on individual rim protection data: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%207-0&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*20
Out of all active 7 footers averaging 20 or more minutes a game, Mozgov's rim protection data is on par with Pau Gasol or Nikola Vucevic. Opponents shoot 51% while he's defending at the rim, which ranks him in bottom tier of 7-footers in the NBA. If we're talking about actual rim protection, a guy like Alex Len would be a significant upgrade over Mozgov. I understand Mozgov does other things well enough on offense, but he's as much of a rim protector as Pau Gasol is at this point in his career. |
help me out...because I really do not know....is that 51% count when Mozgov is on the court or when he is the individual player contesting the shot at the rim? |
It the % the opponent is shooting when Mozgov is contesting the shot. |
Of course that stat doesn't have the ability to differentiate when Moz rotates and his man scores (b/c his teammates didn't rotate). He gets the short end of the stick statistically for the right basketball move. |
The Cavs had a similar issue with Mozgov last season, so it's not entirely inaccurate. Replacing him with TT yielded better defensive numbers. Mozgov is good for certain things, but he has glaring limitations on the defensive end. While he has good verticality and puts his hands up more often than not, he's not going to alter many shots in the paint due to his lack of lift. A rim protector is supposed to be that last line of defense. IMO, his defensive peak was two seasons ago with the Cavs, but he was 28 and had a more decent set of legs. The defensive dynamic the Lakers had hoped to get with Deng and Mozgov is not working out the way they envisioned.
The real benefit of having Mozgov right now is his offense, although he's not the passer everyone thought he'd be. |
Last season? Dude was admittedly hurt and came back too soon from injury.
If you think Moz plays Pau Gasol level defense...
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LakerDynasty6.0
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Posts: 4660
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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The Lakers need fans that enjoy the current incarnation and the amazing progress being made!
Soon, we'll be arguing over whether Zubac is the worst dancer on Figueroa, since Madsen!
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Starting Lakers Dynasty6.0! NOW!!
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KindCrippler2000
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 15821
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | So the problem really isn't Mozgov, it is the secondary defenders who are not rotating. |
Mozgov isn't the entire problem, but it would be inaccurate to say he isn't part of it. He's just not making a mark on the defensive end, which is why it would be unfair to call him a rim protector at this point. He isn't a rim protector by any metric out there... at least not this season.
Here's the rundown on individual rim protection data: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!/tracking/player/rim/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Height=GT%207-0&sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*GE*20
Out of all active 7 footers averaging 20 or more minutes a game, Mozgov's rim protection data is on par with Pau Gasol or Nikola Vucevic. Opponents shoot 51% while he's defending at the rim, which ranks him in bottom tier of 7-footers in the NBA. If we're talking about actual rim protection, a guy like Alex Len would be a significant upgrade over Mozgov. I understand Mozgov does other things well enough on offense, but he's as much of a rim protector as Pau Gasol is at this point in his career. |
help me out...because I really do not know....is that 51% count when Mozgov is on the court or when he is the individual player contesting the shot at the rim? |
It the % the opponent is shooting when Mozgov is contesting the shot. |
Of course that stat doesn't have the ability to differentiate when Moz rotates and his man scores (b/c his teammates didn't rotate). He gets the short end of the stick statistically for the right basketball move. |
The Cavs had a similar issue with Mozgov last season, so it's not entirely inaccurate. Replacing him with TT yielded better defensive numbers. Mozgov is good for certain things, but he has glaring limitations on the defensive end. While he has good verticality and puts his hands up more often than not, he's not going to alter many shots in the paint due to his lack of lift. A rim protector is supposed to be that last line of defense. IMO, his defensive peak was two seasons ago with the Cavs, but he was 28 and had a more decent set of legs. The defensive dynamic the Lakers had hoped to get with Deng and Mozgov is not working out the way they envisioned.
The real benefit of having Mozgov right now is his offense, although he's not the passer everyone thought he'd be. |
Last season? Dude was admittedly hurt and came back too soon from injury.
If you think Moz plays Pau Gasol level defense... |
As I've already said - he's not the entire problem, but the numbers would indicate he's part of it. Initially, I defended the Mozgov signing because I believed him to be a better defender than advertised -- if he altered or blocked a few shots here and there, the offense would take care of itself. The team has exceptional offensive efficiency when Young and Russell are playing, but they are losing ball games due to defensive issues. After looking at individual defensive contribution numbers, Mozgov isn't exactly doing his part either. Missed rotations should be accounted for, but the job of a rim protector is to alter shots in the paint. They are supposed to be that last line of defense. As is currently stands, the numbers would indicate he's not doing that, as paint scoring is a major issue when he's playing.
The Suns play terrible defense. They miss more defensive rotations than anyone. However, some of their defensive woes are ameliorated by having players like Alex Len and Tyson Chandler in the center. Both players alter enough shots in the paint to not make it a total disaster for them defensively (16th in opponent paint scoring). Lakers aren't doing any of that right now -- every single bucket in the paint is damn near uncontested. Lakers are basically telling opponents that it's okay to waltz in the paint and score without any resistance.
I'll post the updated defensive rankings after tonights game. Will discuss this more in the defensive rankings thread. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Just a note on the OP - a couple weeks ago before all the injuries started, we were a top 3 offense in the league, with one of the best shooting percentages in the league, and we were starting to become one of the more dangerous 3 point shooting teams in the league as well. That all dropped off precipitously with injuries, but the shooting talent is there.
As for defense, statistics are useful but they have their limits. Ability to block shots and ability of teammates to rotate when you rotate away from the rim are two completely separate things, and I suspect the latter is a big reason Mozgov compares to Gasol statistically in 'rim protection.'
Give it a couple months, lets see if the injury situation resolves favorably and we have our top 10 players back in action. I think we'll improve a lot if we can get healthy and stay that way. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I thought we needed Tony Allen? |
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Worthy42
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Moz is fine on defense. If you watch the games and videos the main issue is the rotation after. Nobody ever drops over or the guy who is on the man with the ball doesn't drop down to cover or block out. |
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AllorNothing
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Joined: 08 Oct 2001
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | I thought we needed Tony Allen? |
Tony Allen player that can shoot? Possibly Klay Thompson , kahwi, or Paul George. |
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Tiez
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Posts: 55
Location: the Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Worthy42 wrote: | | Moz is fine on defense. If you watch the games and videos the main issue is the rotation after. Nobody ever drops over or the guy who is on the man with the ball doesn't drop down to cover or block out. |
This... And you don't need need stats to see this happen in games over and over and over again. If there's no rotation, you'll get destroyed in the paint all day, every day. I'm confident the youngsters will pick this up  |
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augus7
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Posts: 904
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:52 am Post subject: |
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Wow, just realized that with DLo, Young, and Calderon out, we're now lacking on outside shooting.
A quick decline of our firepower via injuries.  |
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RichD
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| I would trade Randle Deng, Nance, Ingram for guys that can shoot . It's the new NBA . Those guys can't shoot. |
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lakurluv
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Joined: 17 May 2010
Posts: 2529
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, there's not much in the form of "A Shooter" in free agency for the Lakers to choose from right now, so they will have to deal the hand they've been dealt.
Two of our best shooters are out with injuries and if they weren't we'd be a different team.
Clarkson put in the work and should be shooting better, but IMO he's distracted with things outside of basketball and that never goes well for players.
My suggestion is weather the storm and it will all come level out at some point. I would have liked to see Luke make an adjustment here to the system and offense knowing that some key players are not available, right now. We don't have the true size of a team to go inside and be dominant, so Randle could excel, but there are some adjustments that could be made. Ingram IMO was never a 3-point specialists but a college player who had a size advantage and could go on a streak every once in a while...Too much pressure for a rookie.
Next year we can focus on bringing in some shooters on this team, I like the idea of JJ Redick being available and nabbing him from the Clippers. He would seem ideal, but only time will tell. |
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nash
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Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| RichD wrote: | | I would trade Randle Deng, Nance, Ingram for guys that can shoot . It's the new NBA . Those guys can't shoot. |
Shooting is just part of the equation, players have to defend and move his feet too.
I would trade any player for the right deal, but except by Deng those guys are still developing their skills and are far from a final product. By the way when Lou is your best player by a mile you aren't going to land any superstar without decimating your depth. |
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matigol
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Posts: 664
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:39 am Post subject: |
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What does some guys here think? A few games with 2 starters and 2 good bench players out and they act like we're a trash team without talent.
This team looks really good and surprised the whole nba. The roster is very balanced and they've won some games playing very good defense for stretches.
Watch out what happens if Lebron and Kyrie and 2 others would go down....not many wins anymore.
Lakers aren't ready to win it all! The talent is 19 to 24 Years old! And there's a coach putting things together, has a plan and you can see improvement in all areas.
Calderon, MWP, Robinson and Huertas haven't seen minutes at the beginning of the season. We can't expect them to play like the injured starters. |
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