Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:46 am Post subject: It didn't taken long for the Hawks to see the real Howard...
Quote from the article linked below:
"He has, in his career, certainly from the end of his Orlando tenure until today, at every stop, been a team killer, a chemistry killer, a coach killer to say the least."
Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 3079 Location: Portugal
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:28 am Post subject:
"Howard has been just fine in his role for Atlanta, averaging 13.8 points"
=> I find odd it seems fine every year for commentators that his scoring average dips a couple of points. Why is he better than DeAndre?
Weird times. There is only one elite two-way center in the whole league: Marc Gasol. Howard never developed a skilled offensive game, and at this point in his career he is pretty much of a one-way defensive center like DeAndre. KAT is a one-way offensive center, though he could still develop into an elite defender. Right now, he is more or less where DeAndre was about three years ago -- his rebounding and blocked shot stats conceal the fact that his defense is poor.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35855 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:40 am Post subject:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Weird times. There is only one elite two-way center in the whole league: Marc Gasol. Howard never developed a skilled offensive game, and at this point in his career he is pretty much of a one-way defensive center like DeAndre. KAT is a one-way offensive center, though he could still develop into an elite defender. Right now, he is more or less where DeAndre was about three years ago -- his rebounding and blocked shot stats conceal the fact that his defense is poor.
What about Whiteside? 17.6, 14.8, and 2.3. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Dwight: 17.5 points on 63.2% shooting, 16.1 boards, 1.5 assists and 3.0 combined blocks + steals on a PER 36 basis; 114 ORtg and 100 DRtg, .183 WS/48, and 22.3 PER
Marc: 20.6 points on 44.5% shooting, 6.8 boards, 4.3 assists and 2.5 combined blocks + steals on a PER 36 basis; 108 ORtg and 101 DRtg, .160 WS/48, and 20.6 PER
Hassan: 18.9 points on 54.3% shooting, 16.0 boards, 0.7 assists, and 3.3 combined blocks + steals on a PER 36 basis; 108 ORtg and 99 DRtg, .163 WS/48, and 22.9 PER
DeAndre: 13.3 points on 65.8% shooting, 14.7 boards, 0.8 assists, and 2.7 combined blocks + steals on a PER 36 basis; 124 ORtg and 100 DRtg, .205 WS/48, and 19.6 PER
KAT: 22.5 points on 47.4% shooting, 11.2 boards, 2.4 assists, and 2.1 combined blocks + steals on a PER 36 basis; 111 ORtg and 109 DRtg, .138 WS/48, and 22.1 PER
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
He's a mediocre defensive center, despite the stats. There have been some pieces written on the subject. He'll leave his man to attempt a block, and he'll pull rebounds away from teammates. Basically, he's a stat padder.
In this era of the NBA in particular, defensive positioning by a center is essential. This was DAJ's problem a few years back. When Doc got him to work on his positioning and not just shot blocking, DAJ became a legitimately good defensive center.
I think DRPM is the best defensive stat that is readily available. If you look at the centers this year, you see Bogut, Gobert, Howard, and DAJ all near the top of the list. Whiteside is 39th. He also rates 39th on offense, by the way.
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
Same comment about rebounding stats vs. positioning. Randolph and Green get a lot of boards for the Grizzlies. On a DRPM basis, Marc does well (though not at the level of Howard or DAJ). On an overall RPM basis, no one comes close to Marc.
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
I'm unsure what you mean by unexceptional advanced stats? the only advanced stat in public discourse is rpm, and while it's pretty mediocre compared to reports of internal stat quality, he's at the top amongst centres.
He's pretty low on composite stats like ws, per etc, but there's nothing advanced about adding box score stats and assigning an arbitrary value to them. An advanced stat is really something trying to filter the junk, aka the box score, not doubling down on it. _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
I'm unsure what you mean by unexceptional advanced stats? the only advanced stat in public discourse is rpm, and while it's pretty mediocre compared to reports of internal stat quality, he's at the top amongst centres.
He's pretty low on composite stats like ws, per etc, but there's nothing advanced about adding box score stats and assigning an arbitrary value to them. An advanced stat is really something trying to filter the junk, aka the box score, not doubling down on it.
If you're going to hop up on the soapbox, take it up with sites like Basketball Reference that include those very metrics (i.e., PER, WS, etc.) under the section titled "Advanced". And RPM is also not without significant flaws, for the record ... let's not act like that (bleep) is above reproach.
Bottom line, if you don't agree with the nomenclature, that doesn't trump sources that are probably taken more seriously in the "public discourse" than either you or me. But when you adopt a stance that box scores are "junk", we're not going to see eye-to-eye anyway. As you may know, the rabid fans of EXACTLY one player in NBA history are obsessed with undermining any perceived value in the box score. Regardless, I'll maintain my position: Marc Gasol is overrated here, and Dwight is underrated, IMO.
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
I'm unsure what you mean by unexceptional advanced stats? the only advanced stat in public discourse is rpm, and while it's pretty mediocre compared to reports of internal stat quality, he's at the top amongst centres.
He's pretty low on composite stats like ws, per etc, but there's nothing advanced about adding box score stats and assigning an arbitrary value to them. An advanced stat is really something trying to filter the junk, aka the box score, not doubling down on it.
If you're going to hop up on the soapbox, take it up with sites like Basketball Reference that include those very metrics (i.e., PER, WS, etc.) under the section titled "Advanced". And RPM is also not without significant flaws, for the record ... let's not act like that (bleep) is above reproach.
Bottom line, if you don't agree with the nomenclature, that doesn't trump sources that are probably taken more seriously in the "public discourse" than either you or me. But when you adopt a stance that box scores are "junk", we're not going to see eye-to-eye anyway. As you may know, the rabid fans of EXACTLY one player in NBA history are obsessed with undermining any perceived value in the box score. Regardless, I'll maintain my position: Marc Gasol is overrated here, and Dwight is underrated, IMO.
It doesn't really matter what the rabid fans think, there is one valuable stat on the box score, the two numbers at the bottom, 1 for each team, and they tend to dismiss that part too.
It's your value to that, that matters, and yes the box score is junk, but it's not a feeling, it's demonstrably junk.
People can hate Lebron all they like, he wins a lot, that's what matters, people can hate Kobe all they like, he won a lot, and that too was all that mattered.
If you have two players, player A has lower box score stats than player B, but when switched into the exact same situation as player B the team performs better, who is the better player? This happens quite often tbh, they often call it "intangibles" because it's due to non box score stuff (how did kobe keep winning, the actual goal of basketball, despite his composite metrics never being flattering? he may not have been the center of gravity with opposing defenses when shaq was in la, but he was certainly that guy in '08-'10, even if Pau had more flattering "advanced stats" in the playoffs lol, there were certainly players who didn't win (bleep) and ), but things don't run on magic, there are actual reasons why things happen in the universe.
Im not even a Kobe fan, but look at Kobe on that, you have stats telling you the guy who was the best player on the best team, and won the championship, he just cracks the top 20 on PER and isn't even in the top 40 on WS. You have to really hate the guy to not see there are flaws in a methodology that produces that.
Marc Gasol is that guy, his team continued to win with a bunch of scrubs (what do people chalk this up to? mystic coaching?) but when he goes out injured his team plummets, his value to wins is pretty obvious. Was i surprised that he led rpm? nope, first time i looked at this year but it is what i expected since it's a stat that's trying to measure impact to winning.
Dwight is a weird guy, he doesn't value winning in his behaviour, if he cared about winning, he'd have given up his post ups when he was in LA, or at the very latest after his knees started acting up in Houston (and they went from mediocre to horrendous). What was most frustrating was his unwillingness to commit to his strengths and minimise his weaknesses when he was capable of making a real difference, and while he does seem to have gotten a dose reality (and admittedly, rpm's weakness is it includes fit so new teams and rotating rosters tend to deflate your result), he's wildly inconsistent with his effort levels which makes it hard on his team.
From the perspective of advanced statistics, to remove the noise and improve the sampling. BR can call it whatever they want, they're trying to make money from public demand, not from selling a resource to the market that has a meaningful use for it. Those composite stats increase the noise, not reduce them, they actually do the opposite of what they're supposed to do and that's why i call them junk. _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong
Joined: 07 Jun 2002 Posts: 9674 Location: San Diego
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:25 pm Post subject:
Telleris wrote:
the association wrote:
Telleris wrote:
the association wrote:
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
I'm unsure what you mean by unexceptional advanced stats? the only advanced stat in public discourse is rpm, and while it's pretty mediocre compared to reports of internal stat quality, he's at the top amongst centres.
He's pretty low on composite stats like ws, per etc, but there's nothing advanced about adding box score stats and assigning an arbitrary value to them. An advanced stat is really something trying to filter the junk, aka the box score, not doubling down on it.
If you're going to hop up on the soapbox, take it up with sites like Basketball Reference that include those very metrics (i.e., PER, WS, etc.) under the section titled "Advanced". And RPM is also not without significant flaws, for the record ... let's not act like that (bleep) is above reproach.
Bottom line, if you don't agree with the nomenclature, that doesn't trump sources that are probably taken more seriously in the "public discourse" than either you or me. But when you adopt a stance that box scores are "junk", we're not going to see eye-to-eye anyway. As you may know, the rabid fans of EXACTLY one player in NBA history are obsessed with undermining any perceived value in the box score. Regardless, I'll maintain my position: Marc Gasol is overrated here, and Dwight is underrated, IMO.
It doesn't really matter what the rabid fans think, there is one valuable stat on the box score, the two numbers at the bottom, 1 for each team, and they tend to dismiss that part too.
It's your value to that, that matters, and yes the box score is junk, but it's not a feeling, it's demonstrably junk.
People can hate Lebron all they like, he wins a lot, that's what matters, people can hate Kobe all they like, he won a lot, and that too was all that mattered.
If you have two players, player A has lower box score stats than player B, but when switched into the exact same situation as player B the team performs better, who is the better player? This happens quite often tbh, they often call it "intangibles" because it's due to non box score stuff (how did kobe keep winning, the actual goal of basketball, despite his composite metrics never being flattering? he may not have been the center of gravity with opposing defenses when shaq was in la, but he was certainly that guy in '08-'10, even if Pau had more flattering "advanced stats" in the playoffs lol, there were certainly players who didn't win (bleep) and ), but things don't run on magic, there are actual reasons why things happen in the universe.
Im not even a Kobe fan, but look at Kobe on that, you have stats telling you the guy who was the best player on the best team, and won the championship, he just cracks the top 20 on PER and isn't even in the top 40 on WS. You have to really hate the guy to not see there are flaws in a methodology that produces that.
Marc Gasol is that guy, his team continued to win with a bunch of scrubs (what do people chalk this up to? mystic coaching?) but when he goes out injured his team plummets, his value to wins is pretty obvious. Was i surprised that he led rpm? nope, first time i looked at this year but it is what i expected since it's a stat that's trying to measure impact to winning.
Dwight is a weird guy, he doesn't value winning in his behaviour, if he cared about winning, he'd have given up his post ups when he was in LA, or at the very latest after his knees started acting up in Houston (and they went from mediocre to horrendous). What was most frustrating was his unwillingness to commit to his strengths and minimise his weaknesses when he was capable of making a real difference, and while he does seem to have gotten a dose reality (and admittedly, rpm's weakness is it includes fit so new teams and rotating rosters tend to deflate your result), he's wildly inconsistent with his effort levels which makes it hard on his team.
From the perspective of advanced statistics, to remove the noise and improve the sampling. BR can call it whatever they want, they're trying to make money from public demand, not from selling a resource to the market that has a meaningful use for it. Those composite stats increase the noise, not reduce them, they actually do the opposite of what they're supposed to do and that's why i call them junk.
I totally agree with your take on this. _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
I'm unsure what you mean by unexceptional advanced stats? the only advanced stat in public discourse is rpm, and while it's pretty mediocre compared to reports of internal stat quality, he's at the top amongst centres.
He's pretty low on composite stats like ws, per etc, but there's nothing advanced about adding box score stats and assigning an arbitrary value to them. An advanced stat is really something trying to filter the junk, aka the box score, not doubling down on it.
If you're going to hop up on the soapbox, take it up with sites like Basketball Reference that include those very metrics (i.e., PER, WS, etc.) under the section titled "Advanced". And RPM is also not without significant flaws, for the record ... let's not act like that (bleep) is above reproach.
Bottom line, if you don't agree with the nomenclature, that doesn't trump sources that are probably taken more seriously in the "public discourse" than either you or me. But when you adopt a stance that box scores are "junk", we're not going to see eye-to-eye anyway. As you may know, the rabid fans of EXACTLY one player in NBA history are obsessed with undermining any perceived value in the box score. Regardless, I'll maintain my position: Marc Gasol is overrated here, and Dwight is underrated, IMO.
It doesn't really matter what the rabid fans think, there is one valuable stat on the box score, the two numbers at the bottom, 1 for each team, and they tend to dismiss that part too.
It's your value to that, that matters, and yes the box score is junk, but it's not a feeling, it's demonstrably junk.
People can hate Lebron all they like, he wins a lot, that's what matters, people can hate Kobe all they like, he won a lot, and that too was all that mattered.
If you have two players, player A has lower box score stats than player B, but when switched into the exact same situation as player B the team performs better, who is the better player? This happens quite often tbh, they often call it "intangibles" because it's due to non box score stuff (how did kobe keep winning, the actual goal of basketball, despite his composite metrics never being flattering? he may not have been the center of gravity with opposing defenses when shaq was in la, but he was certainly that guy in '08-'10, even if Pau had more flattering "advanced stats" in the playoffs lol, there were certainly players who didn't win (bleep) and ), but things don't run on magic, there are actual reasons why things happen in the universe.
Im not even a Kobe fan, but look at Kobe on that, you have stats telling you the guy who was the best player on the best team, and won the championship, he just cracks the top 20 on PER and isn't even in the top 40 on WS. You have to really hate the guy to not see there are flaws in a methodology that produces that.
Marc Gasol is that guy, his team continued to win with a bunch of scrubs (what do people chalk this up to? mystic coaching?) but when he goes out injured his team plummets, his value to wins is pretty obvious. Was i surprised that he led rpm? nope, first time i looked at this year but it is what i expected since it's a stat that's trying to measure impact to winning.
Dwight is a weird guy, he doesn't value winning in his behaviour, if he cared about winning, he'd have given up his post ups when he was in LA, or at the very latest after his knees started acting up in Houston (and they went from mediocre to horrendous). What was most frustrating was his unwillingness to commit to his strengths and minimise his weaknesses when he was capable of making a real difference, and while he does seem to have gotten a dose reality (and admittedly, rpm's weakness is it includes fit so new teams and rotating rosters tend to deflate your result), he's wildly inconsistent with his effort levels which makes it hard on his team.
From the perspective of advanced statistics, to remove the noise and improve the sampling. BR can call it whatever they want, they're trying to make money from public demand, not from selling a resource to the market that has a meaningful use for it. Those composite stats increase the noise, not reduce them, they actually do the opposite of what they're supposed to do and that's why i call them junk.
I think I understand where you're coming from, and I recognize that your perspectives add great value here. But suggesting that NBA.com and basketball-reference.com, among other trusted sites (bearing in mind that one of these is operated by the NBA itself!), label certain stats "Advanced" to make money is pretty far fetched to me. I think you're off the mark on this point.
I also just don't think as highly of Marc as many seem to, and I'm not as down on Dwight as many seem to be, as well. Furthermore, I think associating team outcomes with the presence and/or contributions of one player is a complicated task, especially if there are insignificant longitudinal results to consider. And more recently in this thread, when I see "stats are garbage", along with a combination of downplaying Dwight and overrating Marc Gasol, the signal comes through pretty clear for me.
A lot of people are invested in this particular Death Star trench run. I think it's transparent. It may be pure coincidence on your part, and I trust it is. But again, exactly one player's legacy rests in large part on that particular argument cocktail.
Anyway, Dwight's certainly no saint and I readily concede that point ...
I know the type of person Dwight is. A close friend of mine is this way. The guy has genetically inherited high LDL and 3 of his brothers have had strokes or heart attacks. Anyways this idiot works out a lot and is jacked. The problem is he is a low IQ individual who is allergic to reasoning. Even though he is muscle-y and bigger than me, he recently showed up at my place with his high cholesterol blood screens (bleep) about how hard his life is and how easy I have it. I told him to (bleep) with his bs recently because I have known him for YEARS and told him the difference between getting jacked and a healthy lifestyle. Told him to run and play sports to build up that cardio to keep the heart strong and sauna to give it some exercise. Told him to drop the red meat and pick up some herbs and diversify his diet. It was wasted energy. Recently I took up a friend's offer to take up surfing and learn from a semi pro. I invite my friend and tell him it will be good for his cholesterol if he gets out of the gym and does some real sh.t. A activity to get that heart some burn. He told me he doesn't have time for learning that and its a waste of time. Dude cant even swim a lap properly....decides he knows enough to not need to try it even ..once. Dwight reminds me of my friend. A idiot who smiles to hide the fact that he has no personality. A guy who does not have the capacity to connect to anyone or any concept. You can just tell by the number of kids this guy produced with women (mostly) who are in the game for the sole purpose of getting knocked up by dumb horny rich athletes. I mean this guy is literally pi.sing money away when he nuts up his next baby mama. Except even after the 5th time...he does it again. People like Dwight need a big show to distract from the real sh.t show that is their personality. In his time in the NBA, he has improved NOTHING. His natural physical capacity took him to the finals where he met kobe and that's as far as it will get for him. Dwight considers NBA a chore and getting in the way of his fun time.
Bizi gettn NUmbaz yo.
I know the type of person Dwight is. A close friend of mine is this way. The guy has genetically inherited high LDL and 3 of his brothers have had strokes or heart attacks. Anyways this idiot works out a lot and is jacked. The problem is he is a low IQ individual who is allergic to reasoning. Even though he is muscle-y and bigger than me, he recently showed up at my place with his high cholesterol blood screens (bleep) about how hard his life is and how easy I have it. I told him to (bleep) with his bs recently because I have known him for YEARS and told him the difference between getting jacked and a healthy lifestyle. Told him to run and play sports to build up that cardio to keep the heart strong and sauna to give it some exercise. Told him to drop the red meat and pick up some herbs and diversify his diet. It was wasted energy. Recently I took up a friend's offer to take up surfing and learn from a semi pro. I invite my friend and tell him it will be good for his cholesterol if he gets out of the gym and does some real sh.t. A activity to get that heart some burn. He told me he doesn't have time for learning that and its a waste of time. Dude cant even swim a lap properly....decides he knows enough to not need to try it even ..once. Dwight reminds me of my friend. A idiot who smiles to hide the fact that he has no personality. A guy who does not have the capacity to connect to anyone or any concept. You can just tell by the number of kids this guy produced with women (mostly) who are in the game for the sole purpose of getting knocked up by dumb horny rich athletes. I mean this guy is literally pi.sing money away when he nuts up his next baby mama. Except even after the 5th time...he does it again. People like Dwight need a big show to distract from the real sh.t show that is their personality. In his time in the NBA, he has improved NOTHING. His natural physical capacity took him to the finals where he met kobe and that's as far as it will get for him. Dwight considers NBA a chore and getting in the way of his fun time.
Bizi gettn NUmbaz yo.
oh man, OG droppin a truth bomb here.
hit me like a brick after reading the other stuff here lol.
yes, i think there is more truth here than in the other posts.
dwight certainly is not trying to win more than he is trying to be great. and he is not. and thats the problem.
with notable exceptions, ANY NBA player who can't shoot 80% free throws has some kind of mental/emotional issue. even shaq. dwight is in IDGAF territory with his free throws, and its clear by now in the way he plays and what the teams go through.
all these big men who have poor FT% do NOT deserve any max deals if it were judged on effort and winning attitudes.
I know the type of person Dwight is. A close friend of mine is this way. The guy has genetically inherited high LDL and 3 of his brothers have had strokes or heart attacks. Anyways this idiot works out a lot and is jacked. The problem is he is a low IQ individual who is allergic to reasoning. Even though he is muscle-y and bigger than me, he recently showed up at my place with his high cholesterol blood screens (bleep) about how hard his life is and how easy I have it. I told him to (bleep) with his bs recently because I have known him for YEARS and told him the difference between getting jacked and a healthy lifestyle. Told him to run and play sports to build up that cardio to keep the heart strong and sauna to give it some exercise. Told him to drop the red meat and pick up some herbs and diversify his diet. It was wasted energy. Recently I took up a friend's offer to take up surfing and learn from a semi pro. I invite my friend and tell him it will be good for his cholesterol if he gets out of the gym and does some real sh.t. A activity to get that heart some burn. He told me he doesn't have time for learning that and its a waste of time. Dude cant even swim a lap properly....decides he knows enough to not need to try it even ..once. Dwight reminds me of my friend. A idiot who smiles to hide the fact that he has no personality. A guy who does not have the capacity to connect to anyone or any concept. You can just tell by the number of kids this guy produced with women (mostly) who are in the game for the sole purpose of getting knocked up by dumb horny rich athletes. I mean this guy is literally pi.sing money away when he nuts up his next baby mama. Except even after the 5th time...he does it again. People like Dwight need a big show to distract from the real sh.t show that is their personality. In his time in the NBA, he has improved NOTHING. His natural physical capacity took him to the finals where he met kobe and that's as far as it will get for him. Dwight considers NBA a chore and getting in the way of his fun time.
Bizi gettn NUmbaz yo.
oh man, OG droppin a truth bomb here.
hit me like a brick after reading the other stuff here lol.
yes, i think there is more truth here than in the other posts.
dwight certainly is not trying to win more than he is trying to be great. and he is not. and thats the problem.
with notable exceptions, ANY NBA player who can't shoot 80% free throws has some kind of mental/emotional issue. even shaq. dwight is in IDGAF territory with his free throws, and its clear by now in the way he plays and what the teams go through.
all these big men who have poor FT% do NOT deserve any max deals if it were judged on effort and winning attitudes.
I dont know man. Ive been playing b-ball for a long time and I dont shoot 80%. Its not that easy and on top of that being a 7ft giant like shaq or dwight has to make it harder.
I think I understand where you're coming from, and I recognize that your perspectives add great value here. But suggesting that NBA.com and basketball-reference.com, among other trusted sites (bearing in mind that one of these is operated by the NBA itself!), label certain stats "Advanced" to make money is pretty far fetched to me. I think you're off the mark on this point.
Box score based stats are "advanced" compared to just reading the box score. Back in the darks ages of basketball stats, box score stats were all that guys like John Hollinger had to work with. This was a big improvement.
In 2016, those stats are obsolete. The fact that are still listed on web sites means nothing. Basketball-reference and the NBA site just have the algorithms plugged into their system, so the old school stats are generated automatically from the box score stats.
We've had discussions of these stats in this forum over the years. The worst of the stats, in my opinion, is individual d-rating. Box score stats are just awful when it comes to measuring defense.
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
I'm unsure what you mean by unexceptional advanced stats? the only advanced stat in public discourse is rpm, and while it's pretty mediocre compared to reports of internal stat quality, he's at the top amongst centres.
He's pretty low on composite stats like ws, per etc, but there's nothing advanced about adding box score stats and assigning an arbitrary value to them. An advanced stat is really something trying to filter the junk, aka the box score, not doubling down on it.
If you're going to hop up on the soapbox, take it up with sites like Basketball Reference that include those very metrics (i.e., PER, WS, etc.) under the section titled "Advanced". And RPM is also not without significant flaws, for the record ... let's not act like that (bleep) is above reproach.
Bottom line, if you don't agree with the nomenclature, that doesn't trump sources that are probably taken more seriously in the "public discourse" than either you or me. But when you adopt a stance that box scores are "junk", we're not going to see eye-to-eye anyway. As you may know, the rabid fans of EXACTLY one player in NBA history are obsessed with undermining any perceived value in the box score. Regardless, I'll maintain my position: Marc Gasol is overrated here, and Dwight is underrated, IMO.
I've watched 5 grizz games this season. Gasol isn't overrated at all. He is a good rebounder but not a great one. This is true. But it's not as bad as the raw stats would imply. He operates in the high post because his team values his playmaking more than his rebounding. Plus he's slow so like KG on the Celtics his job is to get back on D before his man beats him down rather than gun for O boards.
His man defense is excellent on bigs. He is also smart when dealing with pick and rolls. However he is not much of a weak side defender since he has trouble covering ground but if you go right at him he will block your shot as he has excellent timing and hands.
His offense has become more jump shot oriented this season and his jumper is very streaky but when it's on, he is virtually unstoppable and that has happened about a few times this season (check out the Detroit game-The Pistons commentators along with Drummond were dumbfounded as to what to do vs Marc).
Now when his jumper isn't on however, he struggles to volume score. And I'm not sure I blame him as much as the modern rules. See most bigs who put up big time points have an excellent face up game, Marc doesn't. In today's game I don't think a pure back to the basket big can put up big points. Marc is amazing with his back to the basket tho and he can hit jumpers from any distance but the transition between the two, the in-between face up game that Cousins or AD or Towns have where they can utilize quickness, Marc lacks.
All this being said Marc is a top 5, at worst, C in the league and so far this season has performed like a top 3 C.
Oh and my opinion on Whiteside is that he's...unreliable. He plays like a bench player. One day he's focused and ready next game he's making mistake after mistake and disappearing. Has tremendous potential but his age is catching up to him and that potential will never be realized it seems. He is what he is now and that is an undisciplined player on both ends. He is a more talented DeAndre but less disciplined and doesn't have Chris Paul to help him. I don't know where to rank him but he's certainly not a franchise player. I think Rudy Gobert surpasses him as early as next season.
Conclusion: Surveying the Center landscape, I'm more perplexed by Gasol warranting a pass for 6.8 rebounds, 44.5% shooting, and unexceptional advanced stats than anything else ... I honestly don't care that he tends to take shots further from the basket. His efficiency is straight (bleep) garbage and he can't board to save his (bleep) life ...
I'm unsure what you mean by unexceptional advanced stats? the only advanced stat in public discourse is rpm, and while it's pretty mediocre compared to reports of internal stat quality, he's at the top amongst centres.
He's pretty low on composite stats like ws, per etc, but there's nothing advanced about adding box score stats and assigning an arbitrary value to them. An advanced stat is really something trying to filter the junk, aka the box score, not doubling down on it.
If you're going to hop up on the soapbox, take it up with sites like Basketball Reference that include those very metrics (i.e., PER, WS, etc.) under the section titled "Advanced". And RPM is also not without significant flaws, for the record ... let's not act like that (bleep) is above reproach.
Bottom line, if you don't agree with the nomenclature, that doesn't trump sources that are probably taken more seriously in the "public discourse" than either you or me. But when you adopt a stance that box scores are "junk", we're not going to see eye-to-eye anyway. As you may know, the rabid fans of EXACTLY one player in NBA history are obsessed with undermining any perceived value in the box score. Regardless, I'll maintain my position: Marc Gasol is overrated here, and Dwight is underrated, IMO.
I've watched 5 grizz games this season. Gasol isn't overrated at all. He is a good rebounder but not a great one. This is true. But it's not as bad as the raw stats would imply. He operates in the high post because his team values his playmaking more than his rebounding. Plus he's slow so like KG on the Celtics his job is to get back on D before his man beats him down rather than gun for O boards.
His man defense is excellent on bigs. He is also smart when dealing with pick and rolls. However he is not much of a weak side defender since he has trouble covering ground but if you go right at him he will block your shot as he has excellent timing and hands.
His offense has become more jump shot oriented this season and his jumper is very streaky but when it's on, he is virtually unstoppable and that has happened about a few times this season (check out the Detroit game-The Pistons commentators along with Drummond were dumbfounded as to what to do vs Marc).
Now when his jumper isn't on however, he struggles to volume score. And I'm not sure I blame him as much as the modern rules. See most bigs who put up big time points have an excellent face up game, Marc doesn't. In today's game I don't think a pure back to the basket big can put up big points. Marc is amazing with his back to the basket tho and he can hit jumpers from any distance but the transition between the two, the in-between face up game that Cousins or AD or Towns have where they can utilize quickness, Marc lacks.
All this being said Marc is a top 5, at worst, C in the league and so far this season has performed like a top 3 C.
Yeah, I don't disagree with anything you've pointed out. Actually, I think it's great analysis. And in the end, I agree with the assessment re: Marc Gasol as a Top 5 center over the past few years, probably Top 3 this season.
The area I've been addressing is the one where I believe he's been intentionally overrated to be a Top 1 center in this community, while Dwight's been intentionally underrated to be a Bottom 1 center (since 2013). Setting that aside, yeah, I agree with you re: Marc Gasol ...
Oh and my opinion on Whiteside is that he's...unreliable. He plays like a bench player. One day he's focused and ready next game he's making mistake after mistake and disappearing. Has tremendous potential but his age is catching up to him and that potential will never be realized it seems. He is what he is now and that is an undisciplined player on both ends. He is a more talented DeAndre but less disciplined and doesn't have Chris Paul to help him. I don't know where to rank him but he's certainly not a franchise player. I think Rudy Gobert surpasses him as early as next season.
i don't understand the thread title. i read the article and it does mention dwight being a team killer with orlando/LA, but that he's played well with atlanta this year. he hasn't said or done anything negative in the media to be the "same old dwight" again. that dwight will pop up after they miss the playoffs or keep losing, but for now, the hawks sucking isn't his fault.
confusing thread title. i assumed reading it, that he's back to complaining about not getting the ball, or trying to get his coach fired. _________________ Dominating every day.
If they can't get anyone to support him (although even if they did let's be honest they wouldn't go anywhere significant), he's gonna be pretty upset lol
If they can't get anyone to support him (although even if they did let's be honest they wouldn't go anywhere significant), he's gonna be pretty upset lol
I don't necessarily believe its just D12 thats the cause of this....maybe the Hawks organization realizes they won't win anything as long as the Cavs are stacked and in their primes. Face it in 2016-2017 season, its pretty much the Warriors, Cavs and everyone else. Why not accelerate a rebuild so your organization will be in a much better position after the Cavs lose their grip over the eastern conference?
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