Clarkson/filler for Noel. WYD
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Sixers call the Lakers for Clarkson. They'll give us Noel. Do you do this deal?
Yes
61%
 61%  [ 112 ]
No
38%
 38%  [ 69 ]
Total Votes : 181

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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
ocho wrote:
I don't buy this. Why does he need a different jersey to defend? To rebound? To be an efficient offensive player? He doesn't need to start to accomplish these things. These things are on him, not the Sixers.


"Kobe Bryant needs to leave LA because Eddie Jones is in the way."


Unfortunately Oak isn't of the Kobe mindset.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
ocho wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Clearly we value different traits in a player. He incrementally improved in shooting and defense. He went from one of the worst defenders in the NBA, to an inconsistent below average defender. At a position that I believe is one of the most important spots to have good defenders. His shooting has been extremely inconsistent but yes incremental improvements.


You just cannot be credibly knocking a player for his defense while advocating for Jahlil Okafor. You think Clarkson's position is important for defense? Okafor's position is the most important. Clarkson isn't a great defender, but he has clearly improved and adds value with his other skills. Not only is Okafor a worse defender at a more crucial position, not only has he not improved, but he has been deemed unplayable by his 12 win team who just so happened to start winning games when they took him out if the equation.


Yes I can. I value wing defenders a lot and I don't think the 5 is as important defensively as many do. IIRC the Warriors have the #1 defense with Zaza and Dray Green playing a bulk of the minutes at center. Why? Because they have long and talented wing defenders who can guard multiple positions effectively.

The sixers have been tanking for years, who they play and win with doesn't concern me all that much. I think Okafor needs a change of scenery and he would improve. This isn't going anywhere so let's just agree to disagree.


Yeah. 100% Oak needs to get out of there. He's toast with Embiid there and for Oak's sake hope he gets a shot somewhere else.


I don't buy this. Why does he need a different jersey to defend? To rebound? To be an efficient offensive player? He doesn't need to start to accomplish these things. These things are on him, not the Sixers.


It is partially on him. It's also on an organization that is TRYING to lose. And there's two other young lottery pick centers on the team.


Again, unless Okafor is trying to lose (and that might be a compelling new theory) it's entirely irrelevant. If Okafor was playing great he'd be playing, and the team's overall lack of talent has nothing to do with the myriad areas of the game that he sucks at. It's not Sam Hinkie's fault he can't defend anyone, grab a rebound, protect the rim, or score efficiently. The 2 other centers thing is also bogus. Did Okafor stake his claim on the team as a starter getting 30mpg? What about when Noel was out and he could have established himself as a killer backup. Teams have minutes for more than 2 people to get time at C. Okafor isnt playing because he isn't good and the team is better with other people getting his minutes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject:

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Again, unless Okafor is trying to lose


Or more like, the 76ers played Okafor A LOT during his rookie year because they win in two ways:

Fans get to see their lottery pick
76ers get an easier ticket to lose for the draft
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
It is partially on him. It's also on an organization that is TRYING to lose. And there's two other young lottery pick centers on the team.


That's an organization that was trying to lose. That hasn't been the case for about a year now, with different management. They've won 5 of 6 games as we speak.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject:

I think the Sixers knew that Okafor was not in their long term plans last year. Good things are starting to happen to them. Joel is on his way to being a star. Ersan Ilyasova, who looked like he would be a big time player before his career got derailed, is playing great and may win comeback player of the year. Noel is going to fetch them some pieces as they are showcasing his talents. This is even before Simmons steps foot on the court.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:03 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
ocho wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
Clearly we value different traits in a player. He incrementally improved in shooting and defense. He went from one of the worst defenders in the NBA, to an inconsistent below average defender. At a position that I believe is one of the most important spots to have good defenders. His shooting has been extremely inconsistent but yes incremental improvements.


You just cannot be credibly knocking a player for his defense while advocating for Jahlil Okafor. You think Clarkson's position is important for defense? Okafor's position is the most important. Clarkson isn't a great defender, but he has clearly improved and adds value with his other skills. Not only is Okafor a worse defender at a more crucial position, not only has he not improved, but he has been deemed unplayable by his 12 win team who just so happened to start winning games when they took him out if the equation.


Yes I can. I value wing defenders a lot and I don't think the 5 is as important defensively as many do. IIRC the Warriors have the #1 defense with Zaza and Dray Green playing a bulk of the minutes at center. Why? Because they have long and talented wing defenders who can guard multiple positions effectively.

The sixers have been tanking for years, who they play and win with doesn't concern me all that much. I think Okafor needs a change of scenery and he would improve. This isn't going anywhere so let's just agree to disagree.


Yeah. 100% Oak needs to get out of there. He's toast with Embiid there and for Oak's sake hope he gets a shot somewhere else.


I don't buy this. Why does he need a different jersey to defend? To rebound? To be an efficient offensive player? He doesn't need to start to accomplish these things. These things are on him, not the Sixers.


It is partially on him. It's also on an organization that is TRYING to lose. And there's two other young lottery pick centers on the team.


Again, unless Okafor is trying to lose (and that might be a compelling new theory) it's entirely irrelevant. If Okafor was playing great he'd be playing, and the team's overall lack of talent has nothing to do with the myriad areas of the game that he sucks at. It's not Sam Hinkie's fault he can't defend anyone, grab a rebound, protect the rim, or score efficiently. The 2 other centers thing is also bogus. Did Okafor stake his claim on the team as a starter getting 30mpg? What about when Noel was out and he could have established himself as a killer backup. Teams have minutes for more than 2 people to get time at C. Okafor isnt playing because he isn't good and the team is better with other people getting his minutes.


The organization was trying to lose and that was a very bad environment for him to be in. It's on him AND the organization. Having 3 centers who need time is going to be a detriment to at least 1 of 2 of them, you can't deny that.

At this point, you're just exaggerating his weaknesses and stating that over and over while ignoring the good things he does so I'm going to move on.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
It is partially on him. It's also on an organization that is TRYING to lose. And there's two other young lottery pick centers on the team.


That's an organization that was trying to lose. That hasn't been the case for about a year now, with different management. They've won 5 of 6 games as we speak.


But only 12 on the year. Maybe they aren't still trying to lose but it's still a losing culture and is bad for impressionable young players. Okafor is obviously part of the problem since he's being affected by that culture. It's on him and the organization as I've said many times. He needs a new team and I think we would see big improvements, that's been my point.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
It is partially on him. It's also on an organization that is TRYING to lose. And there's two other young lottery pick centers on the team.


That's an organization that was trying to lose. That hasn't been the case for about a year now, with different management. They've won 5 of 6 games as we speak.


But only 12 on the year. Maybe they aren't still trying to lose but it's still a losing culture and is bad for impressionable young players. Okafor is obviously part of the problem since he's being affected by that culture. It's on him and the organization as I've said many times. He needs a new team and I think we would see big improvements, that's been my point.


I agree w/both of your points that it's on him & the team. Where we likely differ is how much it's on him vs. how much it's on the team.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject:

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At this point, you're just exaggerating his weaknesses and stating that over and over while ignoring the good things he does so I'm going to move on.


The problem is that not only am I not exaggerating his weaknesses (and posted the numbers to prove it) but he's not very strong even at the things you think he does well. Offensive numbers (outside the contextless holy grail of "he averaged 17 and 8") are not kind to him. His one calling card is supposed to be his ability to put the ball in the basket, and he doesn't even do that particularly well. It's not personal. I have no desire for him to play poorly. The fact remains as soon as we got that #2 pick and everyone got their heart set on Okafor as the next Tim Duncan this website has been in a fugue state over this guy. It's all based on hopes and prayers because the product on the floor hasn't cut it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject:

Hopefully Okafor can find the right situation & turn it around
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
MJST wrote:
bonkers wrote:
WCS might be an "easier" get than Noel at this point


WCS would be the 'ideal' fit. But I'm not sure the Lakers are chasing him nor how available Sacramento is making him.


I doubt Cauley-Stein could even take minutes from Tarik...actually, I am confident he could not. As always, thats just my opinion. I cannot think of another big in the NBA with less basketball skills than Cauley-Stein. He cant shoot, cant pass, and is not a good rebounder...chases blocks and leaves the rim exposed.


He can shoot, one would have to explore the reasons he doesn't do it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The passionate defenses of Oak just makes me chuckle because I never hear 76ers fans (at least those who are my friends, coworkers, local radio/media) making them. They are ready to move on from him.

I wouldn't mind him at all for a cheaper asset but I don't think we have those for the 76ers.


The passion comes from the guys who hate him (like you). We are simply saying Oak is worth trading for if it's the right price and giving detailed reasons why he can improve in the areas he struggles. Then the response is he sucks on defense and won't be anything more than a scoring big off the bench. Which is unfair to say about a 21 year old who averaged 17 and 8 as a rookie. Not to mention we are advocating for him to be traded for an older scoring guard off the bench who is redundant on our roster. I know there's some crazy Oak fans out there but the people on here who simply think he's still a good young prospect are not the ones out of touch with reality. The ones who think his ceiling is Kanter are. Even if that is where he ends up, that's arguably more valuable than Clarkson anyways so why is everybody acting like that's not a reasonable trade? It's cause people unreasonably hate Okafor.


So we are using the Clarkson/Booker excuse. Young player on a sucky team given carte blanche to do what they want, and no surprise they put up great numbers. Forward one season when they are surrounded by better players and they can't come close to replicating those numbers. That doesn't mean they are bad players, I don't think any of the 3 are. Just that what they did when they were a one-man show isn't who they really are.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject:

Vesper wrote:
Julius Randle is the equivalent of Oaks on defense. So


So we are convinced you have no idea what you are talking about?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Since this is a thoretical Noel thread can we move on from Oak please? This is just not fun to rehash.

Why is it that we need to get bent out of shape (either direction) for a guy who will likely not be a Laker.


Yeah, Noel is a different subject. While his injuries are troubling, he can actually bring something to our team that we lack.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Vesper wrote:
Julius Randle is the equivalent of Oaks on defense. So


So we are convinced you have no idea what you are talking about?


Except it is.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Vesper wrote:
Julius Randle is the equivalent of Oaks on defense. So


Nope. Different physical tools.

You can switch Randle onto perimeter players and rely on him for a stop.
You can have Randle contest shooters.
You can rely on Randle for rebounding.
You can rely on Randle to hedge PnRs (Still doesn't but I know he's capable).

All things that Okafor completely struggles with, and that's just the start. We're not even talking rim protection.


You could say the same thing for Jordan Clarkson on having the ability vs actually doing it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject:

Vesper wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Vesper wrote:
Julius Randle is the equivalent of Oaks on defense. So


Nope. Different physical tools.

You can switch Randle onto perimeter players and rely on him for a stop.
You can have Randle contest shooters.
You can rely on Randle for rebounding.
You can rely on Randle to hedge PnRs (Still doesn't but I know he's capable).

All things that Okafor completely struggles with, and that's just the start. We're not even talking rim protection.


You could say the same thing for Jordan Clarkson on having the ability vs actually doing it.


No. JC does it. Sometimes it's an off/on switch like Randle, but he has the physical tools.

Okafor doesn't.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject:

Vesper wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Vesper wrote:
Julius Randle is the equivalent of Oaks on defense. So


Nope. Different physical tools.

You can switch Randle onto perimeter players and rely on him for a stop.
You can have Randle contest shooters.
You can rely on Randle for rebounding.
You can rely on Randle to hedge PnRs (Still doesn't but I know he's capable).

All things that Okafor completely struggles with, and that's just the start. We're not even talking rim protection.


You could say the same thing for Jordan Clarkson on having the ability vs actually doing it.


No. JC does it. Sometimes it's an off/on switch like Randle, but he has the physical tools.

Okafor doesn't.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
It is partially on him. It's also on an organization that is TRYING to lose. And there's two other young lottery pick centers on the team.


That's an organization that was trying to lose. That hasn't been the case for about a year now, with different management. They've won 5 of 6 games as we speak.


Embiid is legit, I was willing to trade Julius for him while he was recovering just to have a chance to touch this kind of talent despite the high risk.

They should move Okafor really soon because it makes no sense to keep both and a two way player have a nod of an offensive scorer with no defensive presence, even more if the two way player is also a skilled offensive weapon.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Vesper wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Vesper wrote:
Julius Randle is the equivalent of Oaks on defense. So


Nope. Different physical tools.

You can switch Randle onto perimeter players and rely on him for a stop.
You can have Randle contest shooters.
You can rely on Randle for rebounding.
You can rely on Randle to hedge PnRs (Still doesn't but I know he's capable).

All things that Okafor completely struggles with, and that's just the start. We're not even talking rim protection.


You could say the same thing for Jordan Clarkson on having the ability vs actually doing it.


No. JC does it. Sometimes it's an off/on switch like Randle, but he has the physical tools.

Okafor doesn't.


That's what I am saying. They both have the tools. However, actually doing it is another thing. I agree Oaks has limitations on defense because of his lack of physical tools, however, your making it sound like Randle does it well
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
BigGameHames wrote:
It is partially on him. It's also on an organization that is TRYING to lose. And there's two other young lottery pick centers on the team.


That's an organization that was trying to lose. That hasn't been the case for about a year now, with different management. They've won 5 of 6 games as we speak.


Embiid is legit, I was willing to trade Julius for him while he was recovering just to have a chance to touch this kind of talent despite the high risk.

They should move Okafor really soon because it makes no sense to keep both and a two way player have a nod of an offensive scorer with no defensive presence, even more if the two way player is also a skilled offensive weapon.


Yeah embiid is such a fun guy to watch. They will be my eastern conference team once we finally give up our pick to them.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:20 pm    Post subject:

Well if Okafor has limitations because of his physical tools, and he isn't showing good signs of improvement on the court, then doesn't that HURT his overall upside on that end of the floor?

I didn't say Randle or JC do it well. I said, "Sometimes it's an off/on switch..."

What I mean by that is, JC and Randle have shown signs.

Not only has Okafor NOT shown signs, but he doesn't have THOSE physical tools.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:02 pm    Post subject:

No Embiid, 76ers lose.

Oaks scored 26 points on 16 fga and had 9 boards.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject:

I don't know if this is enough for Philly

Clarkson + Black

For

Noel + Bayless

Bayless is out for the year, but he's a better defender than clarkson or lou...so next year he's the backup PG. With clarkson leaving, you'll need more offense in the 2nd unit and Mosgov would look much better next to nance...so you start Noel and bring Moz off the bench.

For the rest of the year

DLO - Calderon
Nick - Lou
Deng - BI
Randle - Nance
Noel - Mosgov

And increase DLOs minutes to around 35 a game. Calderon isn't very good, but he is ok for 10-15 minutes a game as long as he's against a 2nd string PG. Then in 2017 FA you go hard after Hayward. Assuming that fails (which is most certainly will) throw some money at Tyreke Evans. He's a FA after this year and not going back to NOP. He's a better defender at this point than any of our guards and still has 3-5 years of high quality ball left in the tank.

Next Year

PG DLO - Bayless
SG - Evans - Lou
SF - BI - Deng
PF - Randle - Nance
C - Noel - Mosgov

You pay Noel, pay randle, pay DLO max years when you get the chance and then just ride those players until 2020 when Mos and Deng expire. At that point DLO, Randle and Noel should be rolling...BI will be close and THEN you go after the best FA's on the market. We aren't getting anybody of note in between now and then in free agency.

Far fetched, but I'm sure it's more coherent than whatever Mitch has going on...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
I don't know if this is enough for Philly

Clarkson + Black

For

Noel + Bayless

Bayless is out for the year, but he's a better defender than clarkson or lou...so next year he's the backup PG. With clarkson leaving, you'll need more offense in the 2nd unit and Mosgov would look much better next to nance...so you start Noel and bring Moz off the bench.

For the rest of the year

DLO - Calderon
Nick - Lou
Deng - BI
Randle - Nance
Noel - Mosgov

And increase DLOs minutes to around 35 a game. Calderon isn't very good, but he is ok for 10-15 minutes a game as long as he's against a 2nd string PG. Then in 2017 FA you go hard after Hayward. Assuming that fails (which is most certainly will) throw some money at Tyreke Evans. He's a FA after this year and not going back to NOP. He's a better defender at this point than any of our guards and still has 3-5 years of high quality ball left in the tank.

Next Year

PG DLO - Bayless
SG - Evans - Lou
SF - BI - Deng
PF - Randle - Nance
C - Noel - Mosgov

You pay Noel, pay randle, pay DLO max years when you get the chance and then just ride those players until 2020 when Mos and Deng expire. At that point DLO, Randle and Noel should be rolling...BI will be close and THEN you go after the best FA's on the market. We aren't getting anybody of note in between now and then in free agency.

Far fetched, but I'm sure it's more coherent than whatever Mitch has going on...
I could see them doing something like this. Philly gets more bang for their buck with Clarkson, than they do with Bayless.
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