Joined: 16 Apr 2014 Posts: 1526 Location: Vancouver BC
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:05 am Post subject: Westbrook/Harden of today vs prime Kobe
Despite their unbelieveable stats they still dont quite evoke the same type of impact and ability to carry the team by themselves like Kobe did. Only LeBron does.
While they are putting up some historic stats, even better than LeBron who is generally known for his stats, I still dont think theyre a Kobe or LeBron level for that matter.
2nd tier superstars still in my book if we consider it from a historic standpoint.
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Westbrook/Harden of today vs prime Kobe
LakersNewEra wrote:
Despite their unbelieveable stats they still dont quite evoke the same type of impact and ability to carry the team by themselves like Kobe did. Only LeBron does.
While they are putting up some historic stats, even better than LeBron who is generally known for his stats, I still dont think theyre a Kobe or LeBron level for that matter.
2nd tier superstars still in my book if we consider it from a historic standpoint.
It really comes down to winning. You either win ring(s) or you don't. And when you do, then people start arguing about how good your supporting cast was.
But no one really gets worked up over a superstar who takes a crappy supporting cast to the first or second round of the playoffs, except the fans of that particular player.
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Westbrook/Harden of today vs prime Kobe
activeverb wrote:
LakersNewEra wrote:
Despite their unbelieveable stats they still dont quite evoke the same type of impact and ability to carry the team by themselves like Kobe did. Only LeBron does.
While they are putting up some historic stats, even better than LeBron who is generally known for his stats, I still dont think theyre a Kobe or LeBron level for that matter.
2nd tier superstars still in my book if we consider it from a historic standpoint.
It really comes down to winning. You either win ring(s) or you don't. And when you do, then people start arguing about how good your supporting cast was.
But no one really gets worked up over a superstar who takes a crappy supporting cast to the first or second round of the playoffs, except the fans of that particular player.
I don't think Harden is on Kobe's level, but he's been very good carrying teams. This is his 5th year in Houston. In season 1 he got a poor supporting cast to the playoffs. He had a star C the next 3 seasons, made the playoffs each one (last year was a massive failure) and got to one WCF's. No star support this season and the team is 4th in the West.
As far as carrying teams by himself, he's had just as much success as Kobe had in the limited seasons he wasn't playing alongside HOF talent. There really aren't many players under 30 that have had as much success as Harden carrying a team.
Westbrook 2016 reminds me of Kobe 2006. He wants to show the world what he can do now that he doesn't have Durant (like Snaq) on the team. He is putting up some remarkable stats, but really accomplishing less than Kobe did. He has a better supporting cast than Kobe did, but the team is on pace to win only 45ish games in a weaker conference.
I'm a little more impressed with Harden, if only because he shows a willingness to change his game to produce wins.
They both lack the work ethic of Kobe. And the will win. Westbrook more or less relies on his insane athleticism, Kobe worked with Hakeem on his footwork...
Harden? I think he is more a product of the way the game is played and officiated right now. Not on anybodies level. Oh and there is this thing called defense. I guess there could be a couple of players like him with similar stats if they only focused on offense.
Kobe gets them. He had all the tricks, but I love Russ.
I'm not surprised by his production. We saw glimpses of it when Durant was injured at OKC. He now has to try to make up the lost production that would've been filled by Durant....very hard to do and probably a vain attempt in the end when they probably won't make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs. I still think he will win the regular season league MVP.
They both lack the work ethic of Kobe. And the will win. Westbrook more or less relies on his insane athleticism, Kobe worked with Hakeem on his footwork...
Is this based on actual fact? I don't know about Harden, but by all accounts Westbrook puts in the work. Given Harden's improvement, I would say he certainly has put in work as well. Do they work as much as Kobe did? Probably not, but Kobe had a special sort of obsessiveness which may actually be counterproductive. Maybe those guys actually get eight hours of sleep because they know it is key to recovery and performance on the court.
At the end of the day you simply don't walk onto an NBA court and average 30/10/10 just on natural talent. Jordan couldn't do it. Lebron couldn't do it. Kobe couldn't do it. Magic couldn't do it. Most everyone in the NBA is a freak and you don't succeed without putting in work. We can certainly be awed by Kobe's insane work ethic, but this doesn't necessarily mean that no other players work hard.
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8363 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:17 pm Post subject:
There have been plenty of guys, past or present, who have put up numbers as good as or better than Kobe. But only a couple of them (Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc.) have had the same mental qualities as Kobe. Not just the work ethic, but the insane ambition and the insane desire to accomplish his ambition.
Remember when Phil made up that rumor that Kobe "sabotaged" his high school games? I think it was complete BS, but I've always felt like Kobe almost secretly wished that his team would be behind in crunch time just because he relished that challenge. Westbrook has some of that, but probably not that much. In that same respect, even Lebron is not on Kobe's level in some ways. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers
Joined: 16 Apr 2014 Posts: 1526 Location: Vancouver BC
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:18 pm Post subject:
Harden just had one of the best indovidual performances in NBA history. 53-17-16.
And Westbrook also had another triple double in 20 minutes.
Just ridiculous.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29369 Location: La La Land
Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:01 pm Post subject:
How many Chips would a Prime Kobe AND a Prime Westbrook win together?
Tune in to my twitch channel and find out! Jk _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
How many Chips would a Prime Kobe AND a Prime Westbrook win together?
Tune in to my twitch channel and find out! Jk
Before they killed each other? Neither would have any willingness to sacrifice their game, they both comes across as loners with ocd, it would be glorious, haha. _________________ I believe everything the media tells me except for anything for which I have direct personal knowledge, which they always get wrong
They both lack the work ethic of Kobe. And the will win. Westbrook more or less relies on his insane athleticism, Kobe worked with Hakeem on his footwork...
Is this based on actual fact? I don't know about Harden, but by all accounts Westbrook puts in the work. Given Harden's improvement, I would say he certainly has put in work as well. Do they work as much as Kobe did? Probably not, but Kobe had a special sort of obsessiveness which may actually be counterproductive. Maybe those guys actually get eight hours of sleep because they know it is key to recovery and performance on the court.
At the end of the day you simply don't walk onto an NBA court and average 30/10/10 just on natural talent. Jordan couldn't do it. Lebron couldn't do it. Kobe couldn't do it. Magic couldn't do it. Most everyone in the NBA is a freak and you don't succeed without putting in work. We can certainly be awed by Kobe's insane work ethic, but this doesn't necessarily mean that no other players work hard.
Sure, there are a lot of players that work hard. And put up great performances. But they still lack the determination of a Kobe, Bird, MJ....That is also the beef I have with LeBron being called "the best", it's also the issue that Luke Walton has with his players right now. Westbrook probably is the one that shows most of this determination, of greatness.
Sure, there are a lot of players that work hard. And put up great performances. But they still lack the determination of a Kobe, Bird, MJ....That is also the beef I have with LeBron being called "the best", it's also the issue that Luke Walton has with his players right now. Westbrook probably is the one that shows most of this determination, of greatness.
Maybe. But is that real, or is it the halo effect that comes from winning championships and/or popularity? Both fans and the media (and especially ex-players in the media) want a narrative -- a sort of morality play in which greatness is all about character. As the years have gone by, I've become more and more skeptical of the narrative. Are you saying that Lebron lacks "determination"? Or Westbrook has more "determination" than Curry?
I don't mean to single you out. There are lots of people who believe in this narrative. Some of it is real, for sure. Hello, Dwight Howard. But I think a lot of it is just the halo effect.
Sure, there are a lot of players that work hard. And put up great performances. But they still lack the determination of a Kobe, Bird, MJ....That is also the beef I have with LeBron being called "the best", it's also the issue that Luke Walton has with his players right now. Westbrook probably is the one that shows most of this determination, of greatness.
Maybe. But is that real, or is it the halo effect that comes from winning championships and/or popularity? Both fans and the media (and especially ex-players in the media) want a narrative -- a sort of morality play in which greatness is all about character. As the years have gone by, I've become more and more skeptical of the narrative. Are you saying that Lebron lacks "determination"? Or Westbrook has more "determination" than Curry?
I don't mean to single you out. There are lots of people who believe in this narrative. Some of it is real, for sure. Hello, Dwight Howard. But I think a lot of it is just the halo effect.
This. How do you even measure determination? Indeed, there are players that are mailing it in and you can tell. But at the end of the day championships are as much about will as talent. You will never see two teams in the finals that lack both. The NBA season is simply too long of a grind for guys who don't want it desperately to make it to the finals. And just because a guy does not have a 100% usage rate does not make him less determined than Kobe (although Lebron does have a higher career usage rate in the playoffs than Kobe, so he does "want" the ball in his hands, so by this logic he is determined).
Combine best of Harden and best of Westbrook and you have prime Kobe. He was a different animal. Rings, points, carrying teams and hitting the most ridiculous shots known to mankind.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35857 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject:
Snipes wrote:
Combine best of Harden and best of Westbrook and you have prime Kobe. He was a different animal. Rings, points, carrying teams and hitting the most ridiculous shots known to mankind.
Kobe wasn't nearly the passer these two are. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:58 pm Post subject:
RG73 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
cathy78 wrote:
Sure, there are a lot of players that work hard. And put up great performances. But they still lack the determination of a Kobe, Bird, MJ....That is also the beef I have with LeBron being called "the best", it's also the issue that Luke Walton has with his players right now. Westbrook probably is the one that shows most of this determination, of greatness.
Maybe. But is that real, or is it the halo effect that comes from winning championships and/or popularity? Both fans and the media (and especially ex-players in the media) want a narrative -- a sort of morality play in which greatness is all about character. As the years have gone by, I've become more and more skeptical of the narrative. Are you saying that Lebron lacks "determination"? Or Westbrook has more "determination" than Curry?
I don't mean to single you out. There are lots of people who believe in this narrative. Some of it is real, for sure. Hello, Dwight Howard. But I think a lot of it is just the halo effect.
This. How do you even measure determination? Indeed, there are players that are mailing it in and you can tell. But at the end of the day championships are as much about will as talent. You will never see two teams in the finals that lack both. The NBA season is simply too long of a grind for guys who don't want it desperately to make it to the finals. And just because a guy does not have a 100% usage rate does not make him less determined than Kobe (although Lebron does have a higher career usage rate in the playoffs than Kobe, so he does "want" the ball in his hands, so by this logic he is determined).
I don't think it is hard to distinguish between the handful of guys like the Kobes and Birds of the world in regards to determination. Those guys had legendary tenaciousness and dedication. You may not be able to measure levels of determination across an entire range of players, but it's pretty damn obvious when certain players elevate themselves to the top of the heap in regards to their commitment to winning on a day to day basis or dedicating their time to prepare for doing so.
I mean seriously, Kobe's been criticized for his focus on winning and putting the effort and challenging others to do the same.
So yeah, you can tell between players who are truly focused on the prize and those that may be hard working and talented, but aren't bringing that extra level. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
So yeah, you can tell between players who are truly focused on the prize and those that may be hard working and talented, but aren't bringing that extra level.
Sure, but that isn't the question. I agree 100% that we can pick out the Dwight Howards, the Joe Barry Carrolls, and the like. But can you say that Kobe, MJ, and Bird were more "determined" than Karl Malone, Tracy McGrady, Derrick Rose, or whoever else you want to add to the mix? Maybe it's true, but maybe it's just a narrative spawned by the halo effect that comes from winning championships. As the years have gone by, I've become more and more skeptical.
This is not to say that Kobe wasn't fanatical. In fact, he was so determined that it was often a detriment. However, I don't think anyone gets to an elite level in the NBA if they aren't a little crazy.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144474 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:25 pm Post subject:
Would one say that Duncan belonged in that "determined" group? I definitely think Lebron does, that should be evident after last season's Finals. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
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