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LakerDYnasty72
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 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Quote: | | Let's throw West out the window for a second. The question everyone should be asking is this: would a "league average" GM have done better than Mitch during the past six years of our rebuild? I don't mean to hop on the hater bandwagon, but I would say that they would perform equally as well, if not slightly better. |
I'll happily go into detail about the mistakes I think he has made, and there are several, but I don't buy this league average GM thing. Most fans don't want to come to grips with the fact that once the Howard/Nash/Kobe experiment blew up the lab there were almost no scanerios that allows us to shortcut being bad for several years. Within that context a GM can make mistakes, and I believe Mitch has, but he has also re-stocked the cupboard with young talent and preserved a decent chunk of financial flexibility. It's always intriguing to imagine what treasures are hidden in the mystery box, but we currently have a GM that has fostered championship rosters and pulled off several blockbuster trades and drafts well. In other words, we have a better than league average GM by almost any measurable metric. What fans really object to is the circumstances. He's partly to blame for those circumstances, so I get it. But the grass isn't always greener. He has shown he can do this job at an elite level. The next guy...who knows? But really there's very little Mitch or anyone else could have done to move the needle in the last few years very far from where we are now. |
Not trying to be critical, and I agree with most of what you stated, but please make it just a bit easier to read by breaking your thoughts into a couple of paragraphs. |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:23 am Post subject: |
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Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
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USCandLakers
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 19955
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
The first 'mortgaging future' move Mitch made was that Nash trade, where he was quite careless with the pick protection. But that's par for the course, isn't it? The hubris. The lack of planning. He was so convinced that that team would contend for a title for years to come, that he only protected the pick from 1-5.
While a defense to that may be that everyone thought we'd contend; possibly win a title, it doesn't change the fact that the pick protection was an unwise move made by a person that wasn't thinking about the various what-if scenarios that good GMs should be taking into account when making moves.
Also, there was nothing wrong acquiring Dwight and Nash themselves. If you can ignore the pick protection, those are good moves...but they were retroactively made bad by the decisions made after the trade. Those decisions landed us here.
It was like investing all your savings in stock in a company on the rise, and then subsequently going out and destroying that company. It was a good move at the time...until you made it a bad move.
It was as if there were warning labels that came along with these moves that listed very specific things that would have to happen for them to go wrong, and both Mitch and Jim, kid-like, did exactly what the labels said not to do.
DANGER DANGER! TEMPTATION WARNING! The Nash trade is fine, the pick protection is lazy, but it's still fine. Nash is a good player. His old coach is without job, and even though his playing style is appealing, your team doesn't fit with that playing style. It may seem tempting to ignore that, but just don't do it. Disaster lies ahead if you do.
DANGER DANGER! FRAGILE WARNING! Excellent move with the Dwight trade. But understand something. Andrew Bynum was your future. Now Dwight Howard is your future. You must act like it. Do not lose him for nothing. This one's fragile, and is in the last year of his contract, handle with extreme caution. If he's telling you he wants one thing, do not do the exact opposite. If an opposing move is made, trade before deadline to insure future. Brooklyn is looking like a particularly good team to fleece. Regardless of what you decide, DO NOT LOSE FOR NOTHING!
DANGER DANGER! FIT WARNING! Steve Nash and Dwight Howard is a good pairing. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Metta World Peace, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are not. Do something about that. Don't just go into the season expecting that lineup to succeed. The lack of foot speed is obvious. And who is Nash going to pass the ball to for the 3? Metta World Peace? Trade absolutely necessary. Note: this situation could be exacerbated if the first warning wasn't heeded.
DANGER DANGER!
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Chances are mitch will retire b/f being fired. I don't see the Lakers doing that to him, for what it's worth.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| I love the fact that we are going to possibly convey the first quality asset in the nash Trade five years later, and the complaint is that the protections suck. No, the problem is that Nash blew out his leg. |
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Vancouver Fan
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Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 17740
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | I love the fact that we are going to possibly convey the first quality asset in the nash Trade five years later, and the complaint is that the protections suck. No, the problem is that Nash blew out his leg. |
End of discussion.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | governator wrote: | Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
The first 'mortgaging future' move Mitch made was that Nash trade, where he was quite careless with the pick protection. But that's par for the course, isn't it? The hubris. The lack of planning. He was so convinced that that team would contend for a title for years to come, that he only protected the pick from 1-5.
While a defense to that may be that everyone thought we'd contend; possibly win a title, it doesn't change the fact that the pick protection was an unwise move made by a person that wasn't thinking about the various what-if scenarios that good GMs should be taking into account when making moves.
Also, there was nothing wrong acquiring Dwight and Nash themselves. If you can ignore the pick protection, those are good moves...but they were retroactively made bad by the decisions made after the trade. Those decisions landed us here.
It was like investing all your savings in stock in a company on the rise, and then subsequently going out and destroying that company. It was a good move at the time...until you made it a bad move.
It was as if there were warning labels that came along with these moves that listed very specific things that would have to happen for them to go wrong, and both Mitch and Jim, kid-like, did exactly what the labels said not to do.
DANGER DANGER! TEMPTATION WARNING! The Nash trade is fine, the pick protection is lazy, but it's still fine. Nash is a good player. His old coach is without job, and even though his playing style is appealing, your team doesn't fit with that playing style. It may seem tempting to ignore that, but just don't do it. Disaster lies ahead if you do.
DANGER DANGER! FRAGILE WARNING! Excellent move with the Dwight trade. But understand something. Andrew Bynum was your future. Now Dwight Howard is your future. You must act like it. Do not lose him for nothing. This one's fragile, and is in the last year of his contract, handle with extreme caution. If he's telling you he wants one thing, do not do the exact opposite. If an opposing move is made, trade before deadline to insure future. Brooklyn is looking like a particularly good team to fleece. Regardless of what you decide, DO NOT LOSE FOR NOTHING!
DANGER DANGER! FIT WARNING! Steve Nash and Dwight Howard is a good pairing. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Metta World Peace, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are not. Do something about that. Don't just go into the season expecting that lineup to succeed. The lack of foot speed is obvious. And who is Nash going to pass the ball to for the 3? Metta World Peace? Trade absolutely necessary. Note: this situation could be exacerbated if the first warning wasn't heeded.
DANGER DANGER! |
Eh.
No one could have predicted the rash of injuries that sunk us -- Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Blake, Jordan Hill. I don't think many people predicted how much Dwight and Kobe would clash.
Show me the post dated before the season began where you mentioned all these "warning labels" and I'll be impressed; 3 years after the fact, not so much.
We're all geniuses in hindsight, after all. |
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Do it Mitch!
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Joined: 04 Oct 2016
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: |
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 blaming Mitch kupchak for Damian Lillard destroying Steve Nash's knee |
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Vancouver Fan
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Joined: 17 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | governator wrote: | Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
The first 'mortgaging future' move Mitch made was that Nash trade, where he was quite careless with the pick protection. But that's par for the course, isn't it? The hubris. The lack of planning. He was so convinced that that team would contend for a title for years to come, that he only protected the pick from 1-5.
While a defense to that may be that everyone thought we'd contend; possibly win a title, it doesn't change the fact that the pick protection was an unwise move made by a person that wasn't thinking about the various what-if scenarios that good GMs should be taking into account when making moves.
Also, there was nothing wrong acquiring Dwight and Nash themselves. If you can ignore the pick protection, those are good moves...but they were retroactively made bad by the decisions made after the trade. Those decisions landed us here.
It was like investing all your savings in stock in a company on the rise, and then subsequently going out and destroying that company. It was a good move at the time...until you made it a bad move.
It was as if there were warning labels that came along with these moves that listed very specific things that would have to happen for them to go wrong, and both Mitch and Jim, kid-like, did exactly what the labels said not to do.
DANGER DANGER! TEMPTATION WARNING! The Nash trade is fine, the pick protection is lazy, but it's still fine. Nash is a good player. His old coach is without job, and even though his playing style is appealing, your team doesn't fit with that playing style. It may seem tempting to ignore that, but just don't do it. Disaster lies ahead if you do.
DANGER DANGER! FRAGILE WARNING! Excellent move with the Dwight trade. But understand something. Andrew Bynum was your future. Now Dwight Howard is your future. You must act like it. Do not lose him for nothing. This one's fragile, and is in the last year of his contract, handle with extreme caution. If he's telling you he wants one thing, do not do the exact opposite. If an opposing move is made, trade before deadline to insure future. Brooklyn is looking like a particularly good team to fleece. Regardless of what you decide, DO NOT LOSE FOR NOTHING!
DANGER DANGER! FIT WARNING! Steve Nash and Dwight Howard is a good pairing. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Metta World Peace, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are not. Do something about that. Don't just go into the season expecting that lineup to succeed. The lack of foot speed is obvious. And who is Nash going to pass the ball to for the 3? Metta World Peace? Trade absolutely necessary. Note: this situation could be exacerbated if the first warning wasn't heeded.
DANGER DANGER! |
Eh.
No one could have predicted the rash of injuries that sunk us -- Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Blake, Jordan Hill. I don't think many people predicted how much Dwight and Kobe would clash.
Show me the post dated before the season began where you mentioned all these "warning labels" and I'll be impressed; 3 years after the fact, not so much.
We're all geniuses in hindsight, after all. |
Exactly.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144461
Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: |
Eh.
No one could have predicted the rash of injuries that sunk us -- Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Blake, Jordan Hill. I don't think many people predicted how much Dwight and Kobe would clash.
Show me the post dated before the season began where you mentioned all these "warning labels" and I'll be impressed; 3 years after the fact, not so much.
We're all geniuses in hindsight, after all. |
The bolded was one of the few things I was right about. The big mistake at that time by Mitch was in not dealing Pau. He and Dwight were never going to fit.
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RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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laker4life
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Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7317
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| nash wrote: | | I have the utmost respect for what Mitch has done for us, but this roster is not well constructed. We have six guards and they are all bad defenders while Julius is a prospect that won't help a lot here too. At this stage of his career Deng is better suited to play the PF spot than he is trying to stay in front of younger and quicker SF while he is not going to beat them on offense. Black and Nance are needed energy guys willing to do the dirty work, but they are complimentary players. We lack balance, most of our players are defensive liabilities and none is a prolific and efficient scorer to compensate a bit for our lack of defense. One could stress defense is a team concept but we have a couple of young players in Julius and Dlo that have too much of a diva mentality and would hustle and play defense just when they want, I mean sporadically. I see a lot of serious problems with our roster construction and I don't believe another coach would really make a lot of difference. |
Our roster is fine.
We lack a "superstar".
If Lebron came to this team with this roster, he alone would make us a playoff contender.
Thereafter, we would probably trade a few of our young players and get a another superstar like Love and immediately we would have a chance to play in the Western conference final.
Our players are talented but they are not a superstar presently. That might change eventually. |
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splashmtn
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | governator wrote: | Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
The first 'mortgaging future' move Mitch made was that Nash trade, where he was quite careless with the pick protection. But that's par for the course, isn't it? The hubris. The lack of planning. He was so convinced that that team would contend for a title for years to come, that he only protected the pick from 1-5.
While a defense to that may be that everyone thought we'd contend; possibly win a title, it doesn't change the fact that the pick protection was an unwise move made by a person that wasn't thinking about the various what-if scenarios that good GMs should be taking into account when making moves.
Also, there was nothing wrong acquiring Dwight and Nash themselves. If you can ignore the pick protection, those are good moves...but they were retroactively made bad by the decisions made after the trade. Those decisions landed us here.
It was like investing all your savings in stock in a company on the rise, and then subsequently going out and destroying that company. It was a good move at the time...until you made it a bad move.
It was as if there were warning labels that came along with these moves that listed very specific things that would have to happen for them to go wrong, and both Mitch and Jim, kid-like, did exactly what the labels said not to do.
DANGER DANGER! TEMPTATION WARNING! The Nash trade is fine, the pick protection is lazy, but it's still fine. Nash is a good player. His old coach is without job, and even though his playing style is appealing, your team doesn't fit with that playing style. It may seem tempting to ignore that, but just don't do it. Disaster lies ahead if you do.
DANGER DANGER! FRAGILE WARNING! Excellent move with the Dwight trade. But understand something. Andrew Bynum was your future. Now Dwight Howard is your future. You must act like it. Do not lose him for nothing. This one's fragile, and is in the last year of his contract, handle with extreme caution. If he's telling you he wants one thing, do not do the exact opposite. If an opposing move is made, trade before deadline to insure future. Brooklyn is looking like a particularly good team to fleece. Regardless of what you decide, DO NOT LOSE FOR NOTHING!
DANGER DANGER! FIT WARNING! Steve Nash and Dwight Howard is a good pairing. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Metta World Peace, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are not. Do something about that. Don't just go into the season expecting that lineup to succeed. The lack of foot speed is obvious. And who is Nash going to pass the ball to for the 3? Metta World Peace? Trade absolutely necessary. Note: this situation could be exacerbated if the first warning wasn't heeded.
DANGER DANGER! |
you know what I would like to see from LG posters that think like this. Show your hand. Tell us what you would've done and remember the nixed deal, LO losing his mind and asking for a trade, gasol being traded but not being traded and sulking about it to some degree and the entire league knowing our entire poker hand.
This is something no one ever speaks on.
So many things happened because of that nixed trade that rarely is talked about or not at all.
The #1 issue was the obvious. we lost on all that savings, we lost out on cp3 and dwight for the future, pairing. that was our future while also going for the NOW move. Mitch and Jim did that. Not many GM's if any could have or have ever pulled something like that off. The lakers did until the anomaly happened...the nixed deal.
The 2nd issue that was not so obvious is that you now have shown the entire league not just how you operate but your current poker hand. how are you supposed to win a game of poker with your entire hand showing? Odds are you can't unless you have the best hand which we did not with our guys aging out after so many trips to the finals and/or bynum having the worse knees on earth. you guys do realize we would've kept bynum if it wasnt for his knees.
His knees made the lakers make a move for dwight. not his attitude.
kobe is aging but still balling at an elite level
gasol is aging and losing his elite status
LO is aging but looks ok so far but who knows maybe he falls all the way off.
mitch and crew were not about to be left holding the bag like the post shaq era where we had all the old guys on a team together and went for that last title and couldnt do it. with aging hurt shaq, aging ring team gp, aging all of a sudden hurt malone, aging hurt fox, and aging horry. all on the same team.
Now our hand is shown. Gasol is trade bait and LO wants out.
What on earth do you think you can get for good aging players that are obviously going to be traded and one that wants out because he's mad but doesnt really want to play for any other team?
Why do you you risk the nash deal with all the picks? Because thats what you have to do to get a 2 time MVP thats still averaging 12ppg and darn near 11 assists per game. i believe nash was an allstar the season before he became a laker.
so you expect to get an allstar legend who's still a double double machine in assists and points without giving up those picks? Not on this planet.
But i would love to hear the mitch doubters other options. I haven't yet heard of any but I'll wait... |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| BTW, if Mitch is a bad GM for "missing" on Porzingis, what does that make almost every GM for missing on Jokic? |
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Krispy Kreme
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Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 12252
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Eh.
No one could have predicted the rash of injuries that sunk us -- Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Blake, Jordan Hill. I don't think many people predicted how much Dwight and Kobe would clash.
Show me the post dated before the season began where you mentioned all these "warning labels" and I'll be impressed; 3 years after the fact, not so much.
We're all geniuses in hindsight, after all. |
The bolded was one of the few things I was right about. The big mistake at that time by Mitch was in not dealing Pau. He and Dwight were never going to fit. |
You keep touting your horn about the Dwight thing. We've gone over it before in other threads. You said that team with Dwight would "at least" make it to the WCF, if not better after we got him.
Come on. Just stop it already. You weren't even close to predicting that Dwight would crash and burn here. Everyone thought we'd have a good season with Dwight... including you. Maybe you didn't predict a finals win, but you knew we'd be good with him. Hence your "atleast WCF" prediction.
Reminds me of a few years ago when you said we'd win X games, and then someone said you were wrong, to which you said "i never made a prediction.. i just stated how many wins i thought we'd get".
Yeah, that really happened. You're hilarious.
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governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25076
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | BTW, if Mitch is a bad GM for "missing" on Porzingis, what does that make almost every GM for missing on Jokic? |
too close to jock itch |
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USCandLakers
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 19955
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | governator wrote: | Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
The first 'mortgaging future' move Mitch made was that Nash trade, where he was quite careless with the pick protection. But that's par for the course, isn't it? The hubris. The lack of planning. He was so convinced that that team would contend for a title for years to come, that he only protected the pick from 1-5.
While a defense to that may be that everyone thought we'd contend; possibly win a title, it doesn't change the fact that the pick protection was an unwise move made by a person that wasn't thinking about the various what-if scenarios that good GMs should be taking into account when making moves.
Also, there was nothing wrong acquiring Dwight and Nash themselves. If you can ignore the pick protection, those are good moves...but they were retroactively made bad by the decisions made after the trade. Those decisions landed us here.
It was like investing all your savings in stock in a company on the rise, and then subsequently going out and destroying that company. It was a good move at the time...until you made it a bad move.
It was as if there were warning labels that came along with these moves that listed very specific things that would have to happen for them to go wrong, and both Mitch and Jim, kid-like, did exactly what the labels said not to do.
DANGER DANGER! TEMPTATION WARNING! The Nash trade is fine, the pick protection is lazy, but it's still fine. Nash is a good player. His old coach is without job, and even though his playing style is appealing, your team doesn't fit with that playing style. It may seem tempting to ignore that, but just don't do it. Disaster lies ahead if you do.
DANGER DANGER! FRAGILE WARNING! Excellent move with the Dwight trade. But understand something. Andrew Bynum was your future. Now Dwight Howard is your future. You must act like it. Do not lose him for nothing. This one's fragile, and is in the last year of his contract, handle with extreme caution. If he's telling you he wants one thing, do not do the exact opposite. If an opposing move is made, trade before deadline to insure future. Brooklyn is looking like a particularly good team to fleece. Regardless of what you decide, DO NOT LOSE FOR NOTHING!
DANGER DANGER! FIT WARNING! Steve Nash and Dwight Howard is a good pairing. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Metta World Peace, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are not. Do something about that. Don't just go into the season expecting that lineup to succeed. The lack of foot speed is obvious. And who is Nash going to pass the ball to for the 3? Metta World Peace? Trade absolutely necessary. Note: this situation could be exacerbated if the first warning wasn't heeded.
DANGER DANGER! |
Eh.
No one could have predicted the rash of injuries that sunk us -- Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Blake, Jordan Hill. I don't think many people predicted how much Dwight and Kobe would clash.
Show me the post dated before the season began where you mentioned all these "warning labels" and I'll be impressed; 3 years after the fact, not so much.
We're all geniuses in hindsight, after all. |
You want to see the posts where I said not to hire MDA, not to lose Dwight for nothing, and to trade Pau Gasol?
Seriously?
The first one is obvious, I'm not even going to bother with that one.
I was on the trade Pau bandwagon for years. There was a time when I doubted whether we should trade him, but that was very short-lived. Wanted to trade him for the Dragic package that Houston would have sent out in the CP3 deal(2011). Wanted to trade him for Josh Smith(2012). Wanted to trade him to the Wolves for a 1st round pick(2011). And these are only the potential deals that were leaked to the public. Who knows what else GMs presented to Mitch behind the scenes. I don't think there was a potential trade that I didn't want. He was washed up and lazy, and his complete lack of care on the defensive end was obvious. He needed to go.
The Dwight one, I will admit that I didn't openly desire for his trade during the season, because I wanted MDA gone instead. But I did say that if the FO knows they aren't going to cater to Dwight's needs, they should trade him. That one was obvious to me. On the most basic level, Dwight did not want to play for MDA. Only Mitch and Jim knew they were going to keep MDA around. No one but them knew this as fact. Yet they kept Dwight anyway. That's hubris.
| Quote: | | "95 percent we'll be able to keep him," said Buss. |
Hubris.
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USCandLakers
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | governator wrote: | Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
The first 'mortgaging future' move Mitch made was that Nash trade, where he was quite careless with the pick protection. But that's par for the course, isn't it? The hubris. The lack of planning. He was so convinced that that team would contend for a title for years to come, that he only protected the pick from 1-5.
While a defense to that may be that everyone thought we'd contend; possibly win a title, it doesn't change the fact that the pick protection was an unwise move made by a person that wasn't thinking about the various what-if scenarios that good GMs should be taking into account when making moves.
Also, there was nothing wrong acquiring Dwight and Nash themselves. If you can ignore the pick protection, those are good moves...but they were retroactively made bad by the decisions made after the trade. Those decisions landed us here.
It was like investing all your savings in stock in a company on the rise, and then subsequently going out and destroying that company. It was a good move at the time...until you made it a bad move.
It was as if there were warning labels that came along with these moves that listed very specific things that would have to happen for them to go wrong, and both Mitch and Jim, kid-like, did exactly what the labels said not to do.
DANGER DANGER! TEMPTATION WARNING! The Nash trade is fine, the pick protection is lazy, but it's still fine. Nash is a good player. His old coach is without job, and even though his playing style is appealing, your team doesn't fit with that playing style. It may seem tempting to ignore that, but just don't do it. Disaster lies ahead if you do.
DANGER DANGER! FRAGILE WARNING! Excellent move with the Dwight trade. But understand something. Andrew Bynum was your future. Now Dwight Howard is your future. You must act like it. Do not lose him for nothing. This one's fragile, and is in the last year of his contract, handle with extreme caution. If he's telling you he wants one thing, do not do the exact opposite. If an opposing move is made, trade before deadline to insure future. Brooklyn is looking like a particularly good team to fleece. Regardless of what you decide, DO NOT LOSE FOR NOTHING!
DANGER DANGER! FIT WARNING! Steve Nash and Dwight Howard is a good pairing. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Metta World Peace, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are not. Do something about that. Don't just go into the season expecting that lineup to succeed. The lack of foot speed is obvious. And who is Nash going to pass the ball to for the 3? Metta World Peace? Trade absolutely necessary. Note: this situation could be exacerbated if the first warning wasn't heeded.
DANGER DANGER! |
you know what I would like to see from LG posters that think like this. Show your hand. Tell us what you would've done and remember the nixed deal, LO losing his mind and asking for a trade, gasol being traded but not being traded and sulking about it to some degree and the entire league knowing our entire poker hand.
This is something no one ever speaks on.
So many things happened because of that nixed trade that rarely is talked about or not at all.
The #1 issue was the obvious. we lost on all that savings, we lost out on cp3 and dwight for the future, pairing. that was our future while also going for the NOW move. Mitch and Jim did that. Not many GM's if any could have or have ever pulled something like that off. The lakers did until the anomaly happened...the nixed deal.
The 2nd issue that was not so obvious is that you now have shown the entire league not just how you operate but your current poker hand. how are you supposed to win a game of poker with your entire hand showing? Odds are you can't unless you have the best hand which we did not with our guys aging out after so many trips to the finals and/or bynum having the worse knees on earth. you guys do realize we would've kept bynum if it wasnt for his knees.
His knees made the lakers make a move for dwight. not his attitude.
kobe is aging but still balling at an elite level
gasol is aging and losing his elite status
LO is aging but looks ok so far but who knows maybe he falls all the way off.
mitch and crew were not about to be left holding the bag like the post shaq era where we had all the old guys on a team together and went for that last title and couldnt do it. with aging hurt shaq, aging ring team gp, aging all of a sudden hurt malone, aging hurt fox, and aging horry. all on the same team.
Now our hand is shown. Gasol is trade bait and LO wants out.
What on earth do you think you can get for good aging players that are obviously going to be traded and one that wants out because he's mad but doesnt really want to play for any other team?
Why do you you risk the nash deal with all the picks? Because thats what you have to do to get a 2 time MVP thats still averaging 12ppg and darn near 11 assists per game. i believe nash was an allstar the season before he became a laker.
so you expect to get an allstar legend who's still a double double machine in assists and points without giving up those picks? Not on this planet.
But i would love to hear the mitch doubters other options. I haven't yet heard of any but I'll wait... |
You haven't searched. We've gone over this topic many times over, even had someone — in the middle of an ongoing discussion — come right out and ask exactly what you just asked. And it was answered.
In regards to Pau, I would have immediately traded him to Houston for the Dragic/Scola/Martin/1st deal.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In regards to Pau, I would have immediately traded him to Houston for the Dragic/Scola/Martin/1st deal. |
This was my stance at the time too, but Dreamshake and other Rox fans swear Morey didn't want to do that deal after the Veto.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | In regards to Pau, I would have immediately traded him to Houston for the Dragic/Scola/Martin/1st deal. |
This was my stance at the time too, but Dreamshake and other Rox fans swear Morey didn't want to do that deal after the Veto. |
Yeah, I think not moving on from Pau was a mistake. That's the thing, there is a broad range between perfect and awful. |
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | In regards to Pau, I would have immediately traded him to Houston for the Dragic/Scola/Martin/1st deal. |
This was my stance at the time too, but Dreamshake and other Rox fans swear Morey didn't want to do that deal after the Veto. |
Yeah, I think not moving on from Pau was a mistake. That's the thing, there is a broad range between perfect and awful. |
So this is the reason to fire Mitch Kupchack now, for not moving Pau to Houston couple years ago? |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | In regards to Pau, I would have immediately traded him to Houston for the Dragic/Scola/Martin/1st deal. |
This was my stance at the time too, but Dreamshake and other Rox fans swear Morey didn't want to do that deal after the Veto. |
Yeah, I think not moving on from Pau was a mistake. That's the thing, there is a broad range between perfect and awful. |
So this is the reason to fire Mitch Kupchack now, for not moving Pau to Houston couple years ago? |
Of course not. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3).
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Warts and all, I was incredibly excited about the Kobe, Nash, Pau, Dwight grouping.
It just didn't work out. We maxed out on our mortgage/credit cards to buy that house and it just went up in flames...but we still owe the payment (which will be painful but nevertheless due).
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense.
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | governator wrote: | Getting Dwight and Nash to pair with Kobe and Pau was a no brainer.
We all thought it was a championship contending team with an under 30 Dwight Howard.
I mean we just flipped Bynum (the 2nd best C at that time) for Dwight (the Best C at that time). Flip D.Fish to a Nash who still looked like Nash.
Which mean we were mortgaging our future for the 'now' window. Then the injuries piled up and the personality clashes begins but who could've predicted that
Would any other GM did the Nash/Dwight trade... I think all of them would. Would any other GM recover the team the way we have? maybe one or two can draft even better than what we have now but we have drafted well.
We still had a max FA $ even with Kobe's last contract... would another GM able to sign better FA... maybe but unlikely in my view (not with the 'future' mortgaged already)
Welcome to rebuilding |
The first 'mortgaging future' move Mitch made was that Nash trade, where he was quite careless with the pick protection. But that's par for the course, isn't it? The hubris. The lack of planning. He was so convinced that that team would contend for a title for years to come, that he only protected the pick from 1-5.
While a defense to that may be that everyone thought we'd contend; possibly win a title, it doesn't change the fact that the pick protection was an unwise move made by a person that wasn't thinking about the various what-if scenarios that good GMs should be taking into account when making moves.
Also, there was nothing wrong acquiring Dwight and Nash themselves. If you can ignore the pick protection, those are good moves...but they were retroactively made bad by the decisions made after the trade. Those decisions landed us here.
It was like investing all your savings in stock in a company on the rise, and then subsequently going out and destroying that company. It was a good move at the time...until you made it a bad move.
It was as if there were warning labels that came along with these moves that listed very specific things that would have to happen for them to go wrong, and both Mitch and Jim, kid-like, did exactly what the labels said not to do.
DANGER DANGER! TEMPTATION WARNING! The Nash trade is fine, the pick protection is lazy, but it's still fine. Nash is a good player. His old coach is without job, and even though his playing style is appealing, your team doesn't fit with that playing style. It may seem tempting to ignore that, but just don't do it. Disaster lies ahead if you do.
DANGER DANGER! FRAGILE WARNING! Excellent move with the Dwight trade. But understand something. Andrew Bynum was your future. Now Dwight Howard is your future. You must act like it. Do not lose him for nothing. This one's fragile, and is in the last year of his contract, handle with extreme caution. If he's telling you he wants one thing, do not do the exact opposite. If an opposing move is made, trade before deadline to insure future. Brooklyn is looking like a particularly good team to fleece. Regardless of what you decide, DO NOT LOSE FOR NOTHING!
DANGER DANGER! FIT WARNING! Steve Nash and Dwight Howard is a good pairing. Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Metta World Peace, Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol are not. Do something about that. Don't just go into the season expecting that lineup to succeed. The lack of foot speed is obvious. And who is Nash going to pass the ball to for the 3? Metta World Peace? Trade absolutely necessary. Note: this situation could be exacerbated if the first warning wasn't heeded.
DANGER DANGER! |
you know what I would like to see from LG posters that think like this. Show your hand. Tell us what you would've done and remember the nixed deal, LO losing his mind and asking for a trade, gasol being traded but not being traded and sulking about it to some degree and the entire league knowing our entire poker hand.
This is something no one ever speaks on.
So many things happened because of that nixed trade that rarely is talked about or not at all.
The #1 issue was the obvious. we lost on all that savings, we lost out on cp3 and dwight for the future, pairing. that was our future while also going for the NOW move. Mitch and Jim did that. Not many GM's if any could have or have ever pulled something like that off. The lakers did until the anomaly happened...the nixed deal.
The 2nd issue that was not so obvious is that you now have shown the entire league not just how you operate but your current poker hand. how are you supposed to win a game of poker with your entire hand showing? Odds are you can't unless you have the best hand which we did not with our guys aging out after so many trips to the finals and/or bynum having the worse knees on earth. you guys do realize we would've kept bynum if it wasnt for his knees.
His knees made the lakers make a move for dwight. not his attitude.
kobe is aging but still balling at an elite level
gasol is aging and losing his elite status
LO is aging but looks ok so far but who knows maybe he falls all the way off.
mitch and crew were not about to be left holding the bag like the post shaq era where we had all the old guys on a team together and went for that last title and couldnt do it. with aging hurt shaq, aging ring team gp, aging all of a sudden hurt malone, aging hurt fox, and aging horry. all on the same team.
Now our hand is shown. Gasol is trade bait and LO wants out.
What on earth do you think you can get for good aging players that are obviously going to be traded and one that wants out because he's mad but doesnt really want to play for any other team?
Why do you you risk the nash deal with all the picks? Because thats what you have to do to get a 2 time MVP thats still averaging 12ppg and darn near 11 assists per game. i believe nash was an allstar the season before he became a laker.
so you expect to get an allstar legend who's still a double double machine in assists and points without giving up those picks? Not on this planet.
But i would love to hear the mitch doubters other options. I haven't yet heard of any but I'll wait... |
You haven't searched. We've gone over this topic many times over, even had someone — in the middle of an ongoing discussion — come right out and ask exactly what you just asked. And it was answered.
In regards to Pau, I would have immediately traded him to Houston for the Dragic/Scola/Martin/1st deal. |
ok and lets travel thru the future with that trade.
then what does our team look like at that time? and what does our team look like today if you would've done that move? |
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