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activeverb
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 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | Nothing would have happened if we didn't reach the floor except players on our roster would have got paid extra. Worst case that happens and you stockpile 2nd round draft picks from teams looking to dump salary. |
Fans would have gone berserked, screaming that the front office should have signed veteran free agents to create a culture and allow the young guys to develop.
I wasn't a fan of either the Mosgov or Deng contract but you're kidding yourself if you think there wouldn't be massive fallout from staying $30 million under cap and using those roster spots on a couple of d leaguers. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: |
Eh.
No one could have predicted the rash of injuries that sunk us -- Nash, Gasol, Kobe, Blake, Jordan Hill. I don't think many people predicted how much Dwight and Kobe would clash.
Show me the post dated before the season began where you mentioned all these "warning labels" and I'll be impressed; 3 years after the fact, not so much.
We're all geniuses in hindsight, after all. |
The bolded was one of the few things I was right about. The big mistake at that time by Mitch was in not dealing Pau. He and Dwight were never going to fit. |
Dude, you put up 500 posts a day. The law of averages say you have to get some of them right. Like they say, a broken clock is right twice a day. |
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clutchkobe
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
THIS IS BS!!! at least get something for d12, at least get something for gasol.....at least look at your team and dont hire mda....d12 told you he didnt want mda but you hired him anyway.....yeah really smart moves. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
In fairness to MDA, he couldn't command respect because of the two guys listed above him, who, like the fans, wanted Phil (ironically each thinking he'd prioritize them over the other guy), and the fact that neither Nash nor Blake was available to run the offense.
Try running MDA ball through Chris Duhon and a bickering set of twin towers who just got done submarining your predecessor some time |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
In fairness to MDA, he couldn't command respect because of the two guys listed above him, who, like the fans, wanted Phil (ironically each thinking he'd prioritize them over the other guy), and the fact that neither Nash nor Blake was available to run the offense.
Try running MDA ball through Chris Duhon and a bickering set of twin towers who just got done submarining your predecessor some time |
That's the thing. Despite Pau and Dwight putting up stats since leaving (Pau made an ASG as well) and MDA's success in Houston. You can still argue we're better off without 1 or 2 of them.
But all 3?! That's a tough sell.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
I need to see more wins out of this rebuild before I can agree with that. But I'm keeping my mind open in the meantime. It's why I don't believe Jim and Mitch should be fired right now. We've already gone this far, might as well see what their vision has in store for the next year or two.
I can't stand halfway doing a plan, then backing out, then in, then out. It's part of the reason why we lost Dwight, Pau, and MDA sequentially, for nothing.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
In fairness to MDA, he couldn't command respect because of the two guys listed above him, who, like the fans, wanted Phil (ironically each thinking he'd prioritize them over the other guy), and the fact that neither Nash nor Blake was available to run the offense.
Try running MDA ball through Chris Duhon and a bickering set of twin towers who just got done submarining your predecessor some time |
That's the thing. Despite Pau and Dwight putting up stats since leaving (Pau made an ASG as well) and MDA's success in Houston. You can still argue we're better off without 1 or 2 of them.
But all 3?! That's a tough sell. |
I think the manner of their leaving is more important than not having them. I don't think we were going to build a title team around them. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
In fairness to MDA, he couldn't command respect because of the two guys listed above him, who, like the fans, wanted Phil (ironically each thinking he'd prioritize them over the other guy), and the fact that neither Nash nor Blake was available to run the offense.
Try running MDA ball through Chris Duhon and a bickering set of twin towers who just got done submarining your predecessor some time |
That is absolutely fair. I've always said that MDA totally overachieved with the roster that he was given. It REALLY didn't help that Nash was severely injured during his last years in the league.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
I need to see more wins out of this rebuild before I can agree with that. But I'm keeping my mind open in the meantime. It's why I don't believe Jim and Mitch should be fired right now. We've already gone this far, might as well see what their vision has in store for the next year or two.
I can't stand halfway doing a plan, then backing out, then in, then out. It's part of the reason why we lost Dwight, Pau, and MDA sequentially, for nothing. |
Well, D12 didn't want to execute the offense. Pau, didn't fit in that offense (still kind of struggles in SAS). MDA, was not loved by the fans. But, the vision was clearly "high octane, entertaining offense" which made sense with an MDA hire. Byron was respected by the Laker fans and I don't think that helped any one, including the lottery picks under his tenure.
Now, there's finally a system change plus BPA talent that actually fits within the system.
I think the Laker organization was trying to go 2 steps ahead when they first hired MDA. Now that I'm looking in hindsight, this is a total contrast in styles, and Kobe Bryant wasn't a natural fit for a PnR offense.
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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We offered Pau much more than he ended up taking from Chicago, so there was an effort made. Pau stays if Kobe had been healthy.
Dwight is finally finding some success with 13/13 on a playoff fodder team. He was a negative for the 2015 Rockets on the offensive end, at least from a chemistry standpoint.
MDA knows what he's doing, he wouldn't have found success here though. No ball dominant star to build around, and he's not the guy to lead a rebuild project at this stage of his career and our team's development.
Their trade value increased after both left LA. Dwight could have been traded between Thanksgiving and February 2013, but who wanted to trade for a player working his way back from an injury, and unsure of where he wanted to play? |
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USCandLakers
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | We offered Pau much more than he ended up taking from Chicago, so there was an effort made. Pau stays if Kobe had been healthy.
Dwight is finally finding some success with 13/13 on a playoff fodder team. He was a negative for the 2015 Rockets on the offensive end, at least from a chemistry standpoint.
MDA knows what he's doing, he wouldn't have found success here though. No ball dominant star to build around, and he's not the guy to lead a rebuild project at this stage of his career and our team's development.
Their trade value increased after both left LA. Dwight could have been traded between Thanksgiving and February 2013, but who wanted to trade for a player working his way back from an injury, and unsure of where he wanted to play? |
Brooklyn.
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Dwight could have been traded between Thanksgiving and February 2013, but who wanted to trade for a player working his way back from an injury, and unsure of where he wanted to play? |
Brooklyn. |
Thought the Nets only wanted him in the summer of 2012? I meant after his first two months with the Lakers, trying to figure what sort of offers were on the table for Dwight circa December 2012-February 2013. Just playing Captain Hindsight here, I know it's not reasonable for the Lakers to have traded Dwight just because he wouldn't sign the extension. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | BTW, if Mitch is a bad GM for "missing" on Porzingis, what does that make almost every GM for missing on Jokic? |
Nervous for missing out and one step closer to being unemployed. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | BTW, if Mitch is a bad GM for "missing" on Porzingis, what does that make almost every GM for missing on Jokic? |
Nervous for missing out and one step closer to being unemployed. |
Nah, I can make a long list of guys like that, as well as the guys in mid and late lottery who were better than the guys ahead of them, or guys at 3 who were better than guys at 2 the same year, etc. Drafting is an inexact science and art, and the better drafters tend to show out more than most, but also miss a ton of great catches along with everyone else. Give me a guy you think is a great GM, and I will give you a list of his misses. The fun part is when fans who wanted someone else completely (or commonly, a bunch of somebodies) find a player who is better than a guy drafted ahead of him (or they merely think so), and use that against their GM. |
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | Nothing would have happened if we didn't reach the floor except players on our roster would have got paid extra. Worst case that happens and you stockpile 2nd round draft picks from teams looking to dump salary. |
Fans would have gone berserked, screaming that the front office should have signed veteran free agents to create a culture and allow the young guys to develop.
I wasn't a fan of either the Mosgov or Deng contract but you're kidding yourself if you think there wouldn't be massive fallout from staying $30 million under cap and using those roster spots on a couple of d leaguers. |
Moves like this is why it's not nessecary to reach the salary floor in the summer. Especially if you're just spending to burn money.
https://twitter.com/hpbasketball/status/821612516748984320
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vicman
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mitch has pulled 6 rotation players out of the last 3 drafts. I don't think there is another gm that can say that. I mean he has his bad moments but to be right all 6 times is insane |
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dcarter4kobe
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| vicman wrote: | | Mitch has pulled 6 rotation players out of the last 3 drafts. I don't think there is another gm that can say that. I mean he has his bad moments but to be right all 6 times is insane |
Yeah which is why people complaining about the Lakers drafting is pretty crazy.
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"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | Nothing would have happened if we didn't reach the floor except players on our roster would have got paid extra. Worst case that happens and you stockpile 2nd round draft picks from teams looking to dump salary. |
Fans would have gone berserked, screaming that the front office should have signed veteran free agents to create a culture and allow the young guys to develop.
I wasn't a fan of either the Mosgov or Deng contract but you're kidding yourself if you think there wouldn't be massive fallout from staying $30 million under cap and using those roster spots on a couple of d leaguers. |
Moves like this is why it's not nessecary to reach the salary floor in the summer. Especially if you're just spending to burn money.
https://twitter.com/hpbasketball/status/821612516748984320 |
Nick Young was on his way to being cut, or at least buried on the bench. By not signing Deng, Brandon Ingram would have been projected to be leaned upon heavily in his rookie season, not a sound strategy for bringing him along. By not signing Mozgov, Zubac is thrust into the spotlight too soon. |
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laker4life
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | It's difficult for me to talk about the Dwight, Pau, and MDA situation without getting upset.
We had all 3 and all 3 left.
It's like having 3 women fight over you, but you still manage to go home alone. Mind boggling. We prioritized MDA against Dwight and Pau's wishes. Then didn't give MDA what he wanted. So he left too.
And all 3 people have found success since leaving. So we can't even argue we dodged a bullet (or 3). |
I think we dodged 3 bullets. Is this why I don't feel so bad?
D12 is nowhere near his DPOY, Offensive All-Star self.
Gasol, as at the tail end of career and was ridiculed by Laker fans because of the "what have you don't for me lately?" attitude.
MDA couldn't command respect from his team and players. That team never really ran his offense. |
In fairness to MDA, he couldn't command respect because of the two guys listed above him, who, like the fans, wanted Phil (ironically each thinking he'd prioritize them over the other guy), and the fact that neither Nash nor Blake was available to run the offense.
Try running MDA ball through Chris Duhon and a bickering set of twin towers who just got done submarining your predecessor some time |
You are right. MDA did not have a chance.
It was a bad hire by our FO to bring in MDA instead of Phil.
Bad hire and we continue to pay the price. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | Nothing would have happened if we didn't reach the floor except players on our roster would have got paid extra. Worst case that happens and you stockpile 2nd round draft picks from teams looking to dump salary. |
Fans would have gone berserked, screaming that the front office should have signed veteran free agents to create a culture and allow the young guys to develop.
I wasn't a fan of either the Mosgov or Deng contract but you're kidding yourself if you think there wouldn't be massive fallout from staying $30 million under cap and using those roster spots on a couple of d leaguers. |
Moves like this is why it's not nessecary to reach the salary floor in the summer. Especially if you're just spending to burn money.
https://twitter.com/hpbasketball/status/821612516748984320 |
Nick Young was on his way to being cut, or at least buried on the bench. By not signing Deng, Brandon Ingram would have been projected to be leaned upon heavily in his rookie season, not a sound strategy for bringing him along. By not signing Mozgov, Zubac is thrust into the spotlight too soon. |
You do realize Mozgov/Deng weren't the only free agents available? Other guys might not have had the known name as a Mozgov or Deng but they were other options there.
Dedmon, Aldrich, Nene, Monroe (was available in trade), Hibbert (!)
Joe Johnson, J.Green, J.Ennis, Mbah a Moute, BRush
Not the ideal players of course but Keep in mind MozDeng is combinded playing negative replacement level basketball
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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Joined: 06 Jun 2001
Posts: 1703
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | Nothing would have happened if we didn't reach the floor except players on our roster would have got paid extra. Worst case that happens and you stockpile 2nd round draft picks from teams looking to dump salary. |
Fans would have gone berserked, screaming that the front office should have signed veteran free agents to create a culture and allow the young guys to develop.
I wasn't a fan of either the Mosgov or Deng contract but you're kidding yourself if you think there wouldn't be massive fallout from staying $30 million under cap and using those roster spots on a couple of d leaguers. |
Moves like this is why it's not nessecary to reach the salary floor in the summer. Especially if you're just spending to burn money.
https://twitter.com/hpbasketball/status/821612516748984320 |
Nick Young was on his way to being cut, or at least buried on the bench. By not signing Deng, Brandon Ingram would have been projected to be leaned upon heavily in his rookie season, not a sound strategy for bringing him along. By not signing Mozgov, Zubac is thrust into the spotlight too soon. |
You do realize Mozgov/Deng weren't the only free agents available? Other guys might not have had the known name as a Mozgov or Deng but they were other options there.
Dedmon, Aldrich, Nene, Monroe (was available in trade), Hibbert (!)
Joe Johnson, J.Green, J.Ennis, Mbah a Moute, BRush
Not the ideal players of course but Keep in mind MozDeng is combinded playing negative replacement level basketball |
Deng had a better 2016 season than any FA on that list, and wasn't expected to be this bad. His main problem is the lack of a playmaking teammate that can draw a help defender and get the offense started. Dedmon is atrocious outside of a system like San Antonio's, with all that experience around him. Paying an experienced player like Moz seemed like a better option, although the lack of an amnesty provision now makes the move more financially painful.
"Replacement level" is misleading, as players of that status as measured by metrics are not as easy to come by as the name would lead you to believe. Some guys who are outperforming MozDeng wouldn't do so on the Lakers, who lack any kind of dribble penetration and distribution. |
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nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:52 am Post subject: |
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We lack playmaking and perimeter defense, no big man is going to look good in this kind of situation.
Deng produced well at the PF spot last season, he had bellow average advanced stats at SF. |
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Don Draper
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| vicman wrote: | | Mitch has pulled 6 rotation players out of the last 3 drafts. I don't think there is another gm that can say that. I mean he has his bad moments but to be right all 6 times is insane |
I've seen this bandied about, but I don't think it's all that insane given that we need to play SOMEBODY night in and night out.
For sure we've drafted some decent players in the 2nd round. But just look around the league and you'll find a handful of guys putting up the same numbers as say Jordan Clarkson, but were I to name them here I bet they'd be unrecognizable to most.
As fans we overvalue our own guys by quite a bit. We can't let that cloud our judgement of Mitch. From what I've seen, Mitch is a guy skilled at trading picks for role players (pre Nash at least) and drafting guys with useful skills later in the draft. But I don't really think we've hit any home runs in the draft to the extent that we should consider Mitch extraordinary compared to other GMs. |
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fiendishoc
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 2:36 am Post subject: |
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OK, assume that what some of you are saying is true- that DLO, Young, Deng, Mozgov and Randle are different variations of garbage.
Then how come when they are all on the court at the same time, they outscore opponents (often the other team's best players) by +7.6 per 100 possessions?? |
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nash
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
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| Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| vicman wrote: | | Mitch has pulled 6 rotation players out of the last 3 drafts. I don't think there is another gm that can say that. I mean he has his bad moments but to be right all 6 times is insane |
OKC general manager found three HOF in as many drafts, but we are finding some gems with late picks. |
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