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| Are the Lakers ahead of schedule or not? |
| Yes |
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53% |
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| No |
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40% |
[ 33 ] |
| In a holding Pattern |
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6% |
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| Total Votes : 81 |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
I think you're right, I would even admit that I am focusing on the individual outputs. For me, that's what this season is mainly about. Setting the stage for the emergence of one or more of our young core. Because the reality is, Nick/Lou who have spearheaded our wins, are not going to be here over the coming years.
But let's just take their stats out of the equation then.
My bottom line is that for me, to be ahead of schedule, almost all of our young guys have to be enjoying individual career highs across the board, one or more players emerge, we are pacing to win more games than last year and we're doing it through the young guys.
Also, why does everything have to be minutes reduction for DLO or Thibs? Why does everything have to be failure of a season or 30PPG and 2x DPOY? Why do you and others say those things? I don't want Luke to go full Thibs. But I don't want him to go full Bernie either. A player doesn't need to score 30PPG for me to be happy, how about a few more PPG on better percentages?
I've given the team basically a B- so far this year. Good progress but a lot of improvement that can and should still be made. What grade would you give them? |
I don't agree with the bolded, but as yinona posted, this is all just subjective. I look at team, and how they are performing. It isn't unusual for a player's stats to decrease when team play increases. Champion Kobe in 2010 had worse stats than first round exit Kobe in 2006, and that was because he had to sacrifice to make the team better. I realize that isn't an apples to apples comparison to players in their first through third seasons, but the concept is proven. |
Yeah, that's not a great comparison because we're talking about young players. If the players were in their prime years, I'd buy your argument for sure. Plus, the 2006 Kobe was an outlier. He's taken the same, approximate number of shots every other season.
But even using your argument of Kobe, because he was sharing the ball, he wasn't taking as many forced, bad shots. As a result, his FG% went up relative to the Smush years. In our case, the FG% is trending down. That's why I think something isn't clicking. The efficiency there should be up, and I suspect it will be over the remainder of the season.
JC for instance, has seen FG% declines in every season since he entered the league. You have half the forum wanting to trade him away already. That's not him being ahead of schedule to me. That's him being behind schedule.
But again, as I said above, my expectations for EVERY young 2nd/3rd year player in the league, regardless of whether they are on the Lakers or not, is that they should post better numbers across the board than their previous year because they should be a better NBA player than they were.
If they are not doing that, it may be the system, it may be new players, it may be a number of factors and reasons, but that's not the development arc I want to be seeing for a young player.
Would you be surprised if they posted better numbers in the next 50 games or so? Because I wouldn't. I expect it. |
I expect 30-35 wins and I would consider that on track. I'm not obsessed with box score statistics. I trust what I see and I believe they are right on track if not ahead of schedule.
Also, just because they aren't posting better numbers, doesn't mean they aren't better players. There are more factors at play than just themselves. |
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pio2u
Retired Number
Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54623
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
I think you're right, I would even admit that I am focusing on the individual outputs. For me, that's what this season is mainly about. Setting the stage for the emergence of one or more of our young core. Because the reality is, Nick/Lou who have spearheaded our wins, are not going to be here over the coming years.
But let's just take their stats out of the equation then.
My bottom line is that for me, to be ahead of schedule, almost all of our young guys have to be enjoying individual career highs across the board, one or more players emerge, we are pacing to win more games than last year and we're doing it through the young guys.
Also, why does everything have to be minutes reduction for DLO or Thibs? Why does everything have to be failure of a season or 30PPG and 2x DPOY? Why do you and others say those things? I don't want Luke to go full Thibs. But I don't want him to go full Bernie either. A player doesn't need to score 30PPG for me to be happy, how about a few more PPG on better percentages?
I've given the team basically a B- so far this year. Good progress but a lot of improvement that can and should still be made. What grade would you give them? |
I don't agree with the bolded, but as yinona posted, this is all just subjective. I look at team, and how they are performing. It isn't unusual for a player's stats to decrease when team play increases. Champion Kobe in 2010 had worse stats than first round exit Kobe in 2006, and that was because he had to sacrifice to make the team better. I realize that isn't an apples to apples comparison to players in their first through third seasons, but the concept is proven. |
Yeah, that's not a great comparison because we're talking about young players. If the players were in their prime years, I'd buy your argument for sure. Plus, the 2006 Kobe was an outlier. He's taken the same, approximate number of shots every other season.
But even using your argument of Kobe, because he was sharing the ball, he wasn't taking as many forced, bad shots. As a result, his FG% went up relative to the Smush years. In our case, the FG% is trending down. That's why I think something isn't clicking. The efficiency there should be up, and I suspect it will be over the remainder of the season.
JC for instance, has seen FG% declines in every season since he entered the league. You have half the forum wanting to trade him away already. That's not him being ahead of schedule to me. That's him being behind schedule.
But again, as I said above, my expectations for EVERY young 2nd/3rd year player in the league, regardless of whether they are on the Lakers or not, is that they should post better numbers across the board than their previous year because they should be a better NBA player than they were.
If they are not doing that, it may be the system, it may be new players, it may be a number of factors and reasons, but that's not the development arc I want to be seeing for a young player.
Would you be surprised if they posted better numbers in the next 50 games or so? Because I wouldn't. I expect it. |
I expect 30-35 wins and I would consider that on track. I'm not obsessed with box score statistics. I trust what I see and I believe they are right on track if not ahead of schedule.
Also, just because they aren't posting better numbers, doesn't mean they aren't better players. There are more factors at play than just themselves. |
Bingo  |
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | I expect 30-35 wins and I would consider that on track. I'm not obsessed with box score statistics. I trust what I see and I believe they are right on track if not ahead of schedule.
Also, just because they aren't posting better numbers, doesn't mean they aren't better players. There are more factors at play than just themselves. |
That's fair. So it looks like we simply aren't looking at the same things.
I'm not obsessed with box score stats either. I use the stats in my posts because it helps offer a tangible, measurable mark. If we completely ignore stats then it becomes "I'd like to see DLO shoot better", "Nahh, he's shooting amazing", "No he's not", "Yes he is", "No", "Yes". So the stats help back up the claims. I for one believe there is something systemic that explains why DLO/JC/Ingram are shooting poorly. Something isn't clicking yet. Shooting the ball and putting up points is what young players love to do more than anything else.
As for my schedule ... I'm not looking at it right now personally as if we win this many games we had a successful year. I'm judging our success on how we play. Are we playing the right way? Are we moving the ball? Are we competing on defense? Are we growing individually and as a team?
Do you think this is not the right way to measure the team?
I fully expect this team to do all of these things much, much better over the second half of the season. Maybe you don't, since we're right on schedule and all, but I do. We don't have to agree, it's all good. |
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OCWA
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 3660
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Behind. Last season was thrown away when it should have been used to better develop the young players. If Ingram develops into a star then an argument can be made that the wasted year was worth it. But there is no arguing that signing Kobe to the 2 year deal set our rebuild back. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | I expect 30-35 wins and I would consider that on track. I'm not obsessed with box score statistics. I trust what I see and I believe they are right on track if not ahead of schedule.
Also, just because they aren't posting better numbers, doesn't mean they aren't better players. There are more factors at play than just themselves. |
That's fair. So it looks like we simply aren't looking at the same things.
I'm not obsessed with box score stats either. I use the stats in my posts because it helps offer a tangible, measurable mark. If we completely ignore stats then it becomes "I'd like to see DLO shoot better", "Nahh, he's shooting amazing", "No he's not", "Yes he is", "No", "Yes". So the stats help back up the claims. I for one believe there is something systemic that explains why DLO/JC/Ingram are shooting poorly. Something isn't clicking yet. Shooting the ball and putting up points is what young players love to do more than anything else.
As for my schedule ... I'm not looking at it right now personally as if we win this many games we had a successful year. I'm judging our success on how we play. Are we playing the right way? Are we moving the ball? Are we competing on defense? Are we growing individually and as a team?
Do you think this is not the right way to measure the team?
I fully expect this team to do all of these things much, much better over the second half of the season. Maybe you don't, since we're right on schedule and all, but I do. We don't have to agree, it's all good. |
That's exactly how I'm measuring the team. With all the young guys healthy we look like a playoff team, we move the ball, compete with intensity, and look to get the best shot for the TEAM not individual. Defensively, we have stretches where you can see progress and they are competing but it is very rarely sustained. That's my biggest gripe but I still believe the team looks better than I expected. I'm giving the young guys a lot of credit for that even if their individual stats aren't where we expected. They've bought in and seem to play hard for each other. That's something the Lakers haven't done in years. |
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Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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What's crazy is despite the injuries, how competitive the Lakers have been since the beginning of the season.
Really, how many 5-point differential games have led to losses? Last year we were just blown out every other game.
That 5 point swing is the difference between the edge of lottery and the playoffs.
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Dave20
Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Jun 2013
Posts: 11333
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| We're behind schedule. Not only are they losing but the young players aren't playing enough minutes. |
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pio2u
Retired Number
Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54623
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | We're behind schedule. Not only are they losing but the young players aren't playing enough minutes. |
Lakers Minutes breakdown per NBA.com
Clarkson 28.3 minutes
Ingram 27.2 minutes
Nance 22.4 minutes
Randle 28.8 minutes
Russell 26.4 minutes
Zubac 7.7 minutes
Deng 26.8 minutes
Williams 25.1 minutes
Young 26.1 minutes
Mozgov 21.4 minutes
Black 14.9 minutes
Robinson 11.0 minutes
Huertas 11.9 minutes
MWP 5.5 minutes
Calderon 13.9 minutes |
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justsomelakerfan
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Posts: 10939
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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This game should be really encouraging to anyone who caught it. They looked a lot like the 10-10 team we saw to start the season, but it ended in a really close L.
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Austin Reaves
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Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave20 wrote: | | We're behind schedule. Not only are they losing but the clarkson isn''t playing enough minutes or getting set up for enough shots. |
Fify
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't know the stats but the biggest thing from last yr to this yr is that we went from a team that got blown out most games to a team that is competitive most games... is it on schedule or ahead of schedule? Who cares |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Dave20 wrote: | | We're behind schedule. Not only are they losing but the clarkson isn''t playing enough minutes or getting set up for enough shots. |
Fify |
Lol.
Patience is a virtue.
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Daphanabe
Star Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | What's crazy is despite the injuries, how competitive the Lakers have been since the beginning of the season.
Really, how many 5-point differential games have led to losses? Last year we were just blown out every other game.
That 5 point swing is the difference between the edge of lottery and the playoffs. |
This. I know this isn't a Luke thread, but very plain to see how much more competitive he's gotten the team. I think we're ahead of my own personal expectations -- when I saw the roster to start the year I was half-expecting we'd actually be worse than last year's 17 win team. |
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paolomagma
Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2009
Posts: 2414
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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We're on schedule. Truthfully, there isn't too much to complain about other than the usual brain farts in games from both players and coaches.
Overall though, I love the direction we're headed. Now hopefully one of our young guys becomes a star. It's going to take at least another year but I think it's going to be Ingram. |
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pio2u
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Joined: 26 Dec 2012
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, No, Maybe??  |
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VegasLakerFan
Star Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1835
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:31 am Post subject: |
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I think it's pretty clear they're right on schedule. Not ahead, but certainly not behind.
The hot start they had seemed little too good to be true, but I'm sad it was injuries that made it so rather than the team coming back to earth naturally.
Systems like Luke's are about creating a team that is greater than the sum of its parts, meaning that a positive feedback loop is needed. The more success the team has the more they trust each other and ping the ball around, the more relaxed and confident the shooters are and the whole thing snowballs into avalanche of Laker buckets.
When they struggle they can get out of that positive feedback loop and start playing worse based on recent struggles, which of course makes them tense up, trust less and play worse - which makes them tense up, trust less and play worse - which makes them ten...etc. |
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VegasLakerFan
Star Player
Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1835
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| paolomagma wrote: | We're on schedule. Truthfully, there isn't too much to complain about other than the usual brain farts in games from both players and coaches.
Overall though, I love the direction we're headed. Now hopefully one of our young guys becomes a star. It's going to take at least another year but I think it's going to be Ingram. |
I think Ingram and Russell can be All-NBA type players. I think Randle is good enough that he might be able to sneak in an All-Star appearance or two if he gets a quick start in a given season. |
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aachan
Star Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1863
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| On schedule most likely. I mean, for all the talk about how we didn't get our 11th or 12th win until February(???), we sure are approaching where we were 36 games into the season (if we compare by games played and not timeframe). This season we're at 12-24, last season 8-28. We're 4 games up, but we sure have been trending downwards this entire month of December with little to no signs of life. Honestly hope that changes in the new year otherwise we're just replicating what happened last year with no KFT to blame. |
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greenfrog
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Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| aachan wrote: | | On schedule most likely. I mean, for all the talk about how we didn't get our 11th or 12th win until February(???), we sure are approaching where we were 36 games into the season (if we compare by games played and not timeframe). This season we're at 12-24, last season 8-28. We're 4 games up, but we sure have been trending downwards this entire month of December with little to no signs of life. Honestly hope that changes in the new year otherwise we're just replicating what happened last year with no KFT to blame. |
That's the scary part. The KFT/Byron debacle probably cost us, IMHO, conservatively 5 wins. We're currently on pace for 27, so the improvement is terms of W/L is minimal.
Even getting more specific, the defense has not improved. Offensively there's been an improvement, but not as much as I had hoped ball movement-wise. |
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pio2u
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Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54623
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:46 am Post subject: |
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On schedule or not, we have been horrible of late.  |
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LakerLogic
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 17886
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| I'm having a hard time convincing myself we have a superstar on our roster. |
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pio2u
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Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 54623
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | I'm having a hard time convincing myself we have a superstar on our roster. |
At this point we don't. Only time will tell but don't hold your breath because it may be a while before one emerges. |
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justsomelakerfan
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016
Posts: 10939
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Unfortunately they're slipping. Not "behind" just yet, but there's only a couple games ahead of where they were last season. Four, I think.
But they're definitely behind in terms of not having a lotto pick or even mid 1st this season. 100%.
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Austin Reaves
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Portland with its vaunted guards are 14-20. No one alarmed about them?
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Dr. Funkbot
Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001
Posts: 8188
Location: Eagle Rock
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Not a good time for me to vote after watching the team blow a lead and then get blown out against the worst team in the Western Conference at home.
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