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| Are the Lakers ahead of schedule or not? |
| Yes |
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53% |
[ 43 ] |
| No |
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40% |
[ 33 ] |
| In a holding Pattern |
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6% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 81 |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Fun reading the past few pages. Seems some have completely different expectations and definitions of this arbitrary idea of " being on schedule".
Some great points from both sides of the discussion. Others kind of silly IMO. But it certainly points out or different perceptions of success for the players and Lakers.
I would say the Lakers are ahead of schedule. IMO the Lakers team is better overall this year. I am not separating young and vet players. I am not looking for "a star" to emerge. I am not comparing every stat or HC philosophies.
I am seeing a team being more competitive every night. That is progress. I see a team not consistently down by 20 by the end of the first quarter or having suffering embarrassing 40 pt losses all too often.
Certainly think the Lakers have a lot of improvement before they are truly competitive every night. Especially on the defensive end! But the players are buying in to the system Walton is selling. They are winning some games and staying in others. There is growth, development and a building of team chemistry.
IMO the Lakers are on the right track. They are on or ahead of schedule and I am optimistic they will continue to improve as the season progresses and adjustments are made.
They have 48 games left. I would not be surprised if they can hover near the 24-24 range and surpass 30 wins. At least my hope anyways. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: |
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I think by year's end we will be a team that will be interesting to a prospective FA in 2017. Certainly fewer question marks than this past summer.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dude we didn't win 12 games until what, February last year? What else is needed. |
And we can thank Lou/Nick for that. But we also didn't have a streak of 12 losses in 13 games.
What I don't get is the binary nature of this discussion. Why does it have to be ahead of schedule or a travesty? Why does it have to be, well we didn't win our 12th game until February last year therefore the player development must be ahead of schedule?
It is neither to me. Is it that crazy to have expected slightly better numbers from DLO, better numbers and contribution from JC, and better shooting from Ingram?
I mean, I'm fully expecting their second half shooting to be better than it is. Are you not since we're already "ahead of schedule"? |
We lost 12 out of 13 when our best young player missed extended periods of time. DLO didn't have that kind of affect on the team last year at any point. He has clearly improved whether the stats bear it out or not.
Ingram is a rookie who is struggling to shoot the ball early in his rookie year. That's expected unless you bought into the "he's the next Durant" talk. On top of that he was 1 point 1 assist away from being the youngest player ever with a triple double and has shown an ability to play point as an 18 year old. He's at least on schedule.
Clarkson is averaging 14 a game as part of the best bench in the NBA. Most of LG has been saying for years that he projects to being a good sixth man/scoring punch off the bench. He's fulfilling that role while struggling to make reads which should've been expected.
It's becoming apparent you had too high of expectations for the young guys. They weren't going to turn into all stars over one offseason. |
Apparently I had too high of expectations? Didn't you expect 19 PPG on 32 MPG from Russell? If so, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Didn't you expect Clarkson to score around 16-18 PPG? He's below the bottom end of your range, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Did you expect Ingram to have the worst FG% of all active NBA players with the same or more attempts? No one did.
You guys seem to be making the fundamental error that if one believes the team is slightly behind schedule in its quest to develop the young guys, that there cannot be any improvements at all.
But it sure is funny to me that these young guys can be pacing behind your own published schedule and yet you're the accurate prognosticator that is telling others how their expectations were too high?
FWIW, I don't think your before-the-season schedule/prediction was all that crazy. I probably put similar expectations on the same players. But at least I'm owning it now. They're slightly behind where I, and apparently you, thought they would be. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Expectations are subjective.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | Fun reading the past few pages. Seems some have completely different expectations and definitions of this arbitrary idea of " being on schedule".
Some great points from both sides of the discussion. Others kind of silly IMO. But it certainly points out or different perceptions of success for the players and Lakers.
I would say the Lakers are ahead of schedule. IMO the Lakers team is better overall this year. I am not separating young and vet players. I am not looking for "a star" to emerge. I am not comparing every stat or HC philosophies.
I am seeing a team being more competitive every night. That is progress. I see a team not consistently down by 20 by the end of the first quarter or having suffering embarrassing 40 pt losses all too often.
Certainly think the Lakers have a lot of improvement before they are truly competitive every night. Especially on the defensive end! But the players are buying in to the system Walton is selling. They are winning some games and staying in others. There is growth, development and a building of team chemistry.
IMO the Lakers are on the right track. They are on or ahead of schedule and I am optimistic they will continue to improve as the season progresses and adjustments are made.
They have 48 games left. I would not be surprised if they can hover near the 24-24 range and surpass 30 wins. At least my hope anyways. |
My only issue with using last season as a measuring stick, is that I am taking the position that last year is an inaccurate measuring stick. People had said Byron held us back meaning we weren't as good as we should have been. Yet somehow, it has become the standard by which this season is measured.
It's like using a scale that is overreporting by 5 lbs, you measured yourself and you were 175 lbs. Then you got a new working scale, and you came up 173 lbs. Improvement!
I'm setting the standard at 170 lbs. So taking my analogy back to the Lakers, my schedule is set at where I thought we should have been last year PLUS the natural progression of a young player. Right now, I feel like we're at 171 lbs. =) |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Expectations are subjective. |
Sure. But the guy called me out for having too high expectations, yet his own expectations on DLO's development are 27% short.
Anyway, if being ahead of schedule gets an A, being on schedule gets a B, then I'd give the Lakers a grade of C+/B-.
I want to see more from DLO, JC, and Ingram. I want to see career highs from these young guys, not career lows. Then we move it in to the B/A territory. Well, as in we I mean me =) |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dude we didn't win 12 games until what, February last year? What else is needed. |
And we can thank Lou/Nick for that. But we also didn't have a streak of 12 losses in 13 games.
What I don't get is the binary nature of this discussion. Why does it have to be ahead of schedule or a travesty? Why does it have to be, well we didn't win our 12th game until February last year therefore the player development must be ahead of schedule?
It is neither to me. Is it that crazy to have expected slightly better numbers from DLO, better numbers and contribution from JC, and better shooting from Ingram?
I mean, I'm fully expecting their second half shooting to be better than it is. Are you not since we're already "ahead of schedule"? |
We lost 12 out of 13 when our best young player missed extended periods of time. DLO didn't have that kind of affect on the team last year at any point. He has clearly improved whether the stats bear it out or not.
Ingram is a rookie who is struggling to shoot the ball early in his rookie year. That's expected unless you bought into the "he's the next Durant" talk. On top of that he was 1 point 1 assist away from being the youngest player ever with a triple double and has shown an ability to play point as an 18 year old. He's at least on schedule.
Clarkson is averaging 14 a game as part of the best bench in the NBA. Most of LG has been saying for years that he projects to being a good sixth man/scoring punch off the bench. He's fulfilling that role while struggling to make reads which should've been expected.
It's becoming apparent you had too high of expectations for the young guys. They weren't going to turn into all stars over one offseason. |
Apparently I had too high of expectations? Didn't you expect 19 PPG on 32 MPG from Russell? If so, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Didn't you expect Clarkson to score around 16-18 PPG? He's below the bottom end of your range, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Did you expect Ingram to have the worst FG% of all active NBA players with the same or more attempts? No one did.
You guys seem to be making the fundamental error that if one believes the team is slightly behind schedule in its quest to develop the young guys, that there cannot be any improvements at all.
But it sure is funny to me that these young guys can be pacing behind your own published schedule and yet you're the accurate prognosticator that is telling others how their expectations were too high?
FWIW, I don't think your before-the-season schedule/prediction was all that crazy. I probably put similar expectations on the same players. But at least I'm owning it now. They're slightly behind where I, and apparently you, thought they would be. |
Less minutes than I expected. Better overall team play leading to more spread out statistics. I'm happy with what I'm SEEING from the team and not worrying about arbitrary statistical projections that I threw out pre season. THE TEAM is better than I expected and I'm atttibuting that to more than just Lou and Young exceeding expectations. Either way Russell is right around 19 per 32 min and Clarkson is one basket short of 16 and the season is still young. Pair that with the fact that we look like a playoff team when healthy and idk how they aren't exceeding expectations. If Russell and Young didn't get hurt, they could be a 500 team right now. |
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Four Decade Bandwagon
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Joined: 18 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | Four Decade Bandwagon wrote: | Fun reading the past few pages. Seems some have completely different expectations and definitions of this arbitrary idea of " being on schedule".
Some great points from both sides of the discussion. Others kind of silly IMO. But it certainly points out or different perceptions of success for the players and Lakers.
I would say the Lakers are ahead of schedule. IMO the Lakers team is better overall this year. I am not separating young and vet players. I am not looking for "a star" to emerge. I am not comparing every stat or HC philosophies.
I am seeing a team being more competitive every night. That is progress. I see a team not consistently down by 20 by the end of the first quarter or having suffering embarrassing 40 pt losses all too often.
Certainly think the Lakers have a lot of improvement before they are truly competitive every night. Especially on the defensive end! But the players are buying in to the system Walton is selling. They are winning some games and staying in others. There is growth, development and a building of team chemistry.
IMO the Lakers are on the right track. They are on or ahead of schedule and I am optimistic they will continue to improve as the season progresses and adjustments are made.
They have 48 games left. I would not be surprised if they can hover near the 24-24 range and surpass 30 wins. At least my hope anyways. |
My only issue with using last season as a measuring stick, is that I am taking the position that last year is an inaccurate measuring stick. People had said Byron held us back meaning we weren't as good as we should have been. Yet somehow, it has become the standard by which this season is measured.
It's like using a scale that is overreporting by 5 lbs, you measured yourself and you were 175 lbs. Then you got a new working scale, and you came up 173 lbs. Improvement!
I'm setting the standard at 170 lbs. So taking my analogy back to the Lakers, my schedule is set at where I thought we should have been last year PLUS the natural progression of a young player. Right now, I feel like we're at 171 lbs. =) |
No problem with considering last year a fiasco for comparison purposes. The team makeup and the circus that was the KFT is certainly not the norm.
I am making my judgement based on the overall team results. Or the impact of a new HC and system. I am not separating the individual players as my deciding factor for levels of success or disappointment.
Perhaps I am the oddball. I wanted to see some veteran leadership take over this team. I wanted to let the young players develop this year. I wanted to see the depth of this team instead of a couple of breakout stars.
So far I am happy with what I am seeing. A young team getting better. Not saying I would not like to see a dominating Russell or Ingram performance sometime soon  .... but progress overall.
Lakers are moving in the right direction to become a competitive team. I enjoy watching games again instead of feeling ill by halftime as I did the majority of the time over the last couple of seasons. |
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Expectations are subjective. |
Sure. But the guy called me out for having too high expectations, yet his own expectations on DLO's development are 27% short.
Anyway, if being ahead of schedule gets an A, being on schedule gets a B, then I'd give the Lakers a grade of C+/B-.
I want to see more from DLO, JC, and Ingram. I want to see career highs from these young guys, not career lows. Then we move it in to the B/A territory. Well, as in we I mean me =) |
Coming from someone who graded the Lakers are being where they should be right now, but could be falling behind later due to missing out on a lotto pick, I think you're honing into individual output a bit too much.
Luke's setting this team up to be a team effort. He could be going full Thibs and playing our young guys 35-37 mpg and constructing a team around three players, but that's not teaching them the value of team effort. That's a big part of Golden State's success. He's trying to build good habits early, and that choice is something that we'll discover if it pays off later. He's building a team where everyone's a threat. I can appreciate that, although I realize it impacts gaudy stats that Russ or maybe even Randle could be putting up with larger minutes.
I don't think we're seeing Summer League D'Angelo because he's focusing on sharing the ball more, which is a part of his game I'm glad to see open up. Sure, you can compare his PPG to Lavine and Booker, but remember, they're shooting guards. Russell's a point guard. And those two are getting way larger minutes, and they've been less effective for their teams. Lavine less so, but he's in his third year in the league. There's some subtlety in how good DLO's been.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dude we didn't win 12 games until what, February last year? What else is needed. |
And we can thank Lou/Nick for that. But we also didn't have a streak of 12 losses in 13 games.
What I don't get is the binary nature of this discussion. Why does it have to be ahead of schedule or a travesty? Why does it have to be, well we didn't win our 12th game until February last year therefore the player development must be ahead of schedule?
It is neither to me. Is it that crazy to have expected slightly better numbers from DLO, better numbers and contribution from JC, and better shooting from Ingram?
I mean, I'm fully expecting their second half shooting to be better than it is. Are you not since we're already "ahead of schedule"? |
We lost 12 out of 13 when our best young player missed extended periods of time. DLO didn't have that kind of affect on the team last year at any point. He has clearly improved whether the stats bear it out or not.
Ingram is a rookie who is struggling to shoot the ball early in his rookie year. That's expected unless you bought into the "he's the next Durant" talk. On top of that he was 1 point 1 assist away from being the youngest player ever with a triple double and has shown an ability to play point as an 18 year old. He's at least on schedule.
Clarkson is averaging 14 a game as part of the best bench in the NBA. Most of LG has been saying for years that he projects to being a good sixth man/scoring punch off the bench. He's fulfilling that role while struggling to make reads which should've been expected.
It's becoming apparent you had too high of expectations for the young guys. They weren't going to turn into all stars over one offseason. |
Apparently I had too high of expectations? Didn't you expect 19 PPG on 32 MPG from Russell? If so, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Didn't you expect Clarkson to score around 16-18 PPG? He's below the bottom end of your range, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Did you expect Ingram to have the worst FG% of all active NBA players with the same or more attempts? No one did.
You guys seem to be making the fundamental error that if one believes the team is slightly behind schedule in its quest to develop the young guys, that there cannot be any improvements at all.
But it sure is funny to me that these young guys can be pacing behind your own published schedule and yet you're the accurate prognosticator that is telling others how their expectations were too high?
FWIW, I don't think your before-the-season schedule/prediction was all that crazy. I probably put similar expectations on the same players. But at least I'm owning it now. They're slightly behind where I, and apparently you, thought they would be. |
Less minutes than I expected. Better overall team play leading to more spread out statistics. I'm happy with what I'm SEEING from the team and not worrying about arbitrary statistical projections that I threw out pre season. THE TEAM is better than I expected and I'm atttibuting that to more than just Lou and Young exceeding expectations. Either way Russell is right around 19 per 32 min and Clarkson is one basket short of 16 and the season is still young. Pair that with the fact that we look like a playoff team when healthy and idk how they aren't exceeding expectations. If Russell and Young didn't get hurt, they could be a 500 team right now. |
Haha. I mean, on page 2 of this thread, you were patting yourself on the back about your preseason expectations on Ingram's struggle to shoot were spot on and how "unsurprised" you are by it. So you'll hang your hat on that one but then the ones you got wrong (DLO/JC), are now cast off as arbitrary preseason projections? Must be noice!
Anyway, for some of the reasons you listed, that's why I've said the team is slightly behind schedule. I do think they're playing well in spite of that though. Unlike you however, I attribute that primarily (though not entirely) to Nick, Lou, and Larry Nance all of whom are enjoying career highs in FG% across the board. Nance and Lou are also enjoying career highs in PPG. Lou and Nick are regularly closing out games.
But reality is, we are actually worse defensively than we were with Byron and the KFT if you can believe that and that should NOT be happening. Our young guys should be enjoying career highs across the board. That isn't happening. I really believe there is something with DLO/JC/Ingram and the new system that hasn't clicked yet. When it does, I think you will see them approach the arbitrary preseason predictions you made but no longer want to own. |
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:09 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger, I hate saying it, but we could be worse defensively this season because we added worse defensive personnel this offseason to players who were already bad defenders. I'm trying to look at numbers for Deng and Mozgov's FG% allowed but I did see Deng on a list of worst rim protectors this season along with Nance Jr. Luke relies on switches to a fault with these guys, but that's my extremely unproven theory.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Expectations are subjective. |
Sure. But the guy called me out for having too high expectations, yet his own expectations on DLO's development are 27% short.
Anyway, if being ahead of schedule gets an A, being on schedule gets a B, then I'd give the Lakers a grade of C+/B-.
I want to see more from DLO, JC, and Ingram. I want to see career highs from these young guys, not career lows. Then we move it in to the B/A territory. Well, as in we I mean me =) |
Coming from someone who graded the Lakers are being where they should be right now, but could be falling behind later due to missing out on a lotto pick, I think you're honing into individual output a bit too much.
Luke's setting this team up to be a team effort. He could be going full Thibs and playing our young guys 35-37 mpg and constructing a team around three players, but that's not teaching them the value of team effort. That's a big part of Golden State's success. He's trying to build good habits early, and that choice is something that we'll discover if it pays off later. He's building a team where everyone's a threat. I can appreciate that, although I realize it impacts gaudy stats that Russ or maybe even Randle could be putting up with larger minutes.
I don't think we're seeing Summer League D'Angelo because he's focusing on sharing the ball more, which is a part of his game I'm glad to see open up. Sure, you can compare his PPG to Lavine and Booker, but remember, they're shooting guards. Russell's a point guard. And those two are getting way larger minutes, and they've been less effective for their teams. Lavine less so, but he's in his third year in the league. There's some subtlety in how good DLO's been. |
I think you're right, I would even admit that I am focusing on the individual outputs. For me, that's what this season is mainly about. Setting the stage for the emergence of one or more of our young core. Because the reality is, Nick/Lou who have spearheaded our wins, are not going to be here over the coming years.
But let's just take their stats out of the equation then.
My bottom line is that for me, to be ahead of schedule, almost all of our young guys have to be enjoying individual career highs across the board, one or more players emerge, we are pacing to win more games than last year and we're doing it through the young guys.
Also, why does everything have to be minutes reduction for DLO or Thibs? Why does everything have to be failure of a season or 30PPG and 2x DPOY? Why do you and others say those things? I don't want Luke to go full Thibs. But I don't want him to go full Bernie either. A player doesn't need to score 30PPG for me to be happy, how about a few more PPG on better percentages?
I've given the team basically a B- so far this year. Good progress but a lot of improvement that can and should still be made. What grade would you give them? |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | ringfinger, I hate saying it, but we could be worse defensively this season because we added worse defensive personnel this offseason to players who were already bad defenders. I'm trying to look at numbers for Deng and Mozgov's FG% allowed but I did see Deng on a list of worst rim protectors this season along with Nance Jr. Luke relies on switches to a fault with these guys, but that's my extremely unproven theory. |
I think much of it is coaching, to be honest. We're giving up the highest FG% in the paint of any team in the league at like over 57% or something. IMO, a lot of that is because we're going small. Like, really small. Heck, we ran a 4th quarter lineup out there that featured Brandon Ingram at center. |
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justsomelakerfan
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Joined: 16 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | ringfinger, I hate saying it, but we could be worse defensively this season because we added worse defensive personnel this offseason to players who were already bad defenders. I'm trying to look at numbers for Deng and Mozgov's FG% allowed but I did see Deng on a list of worst rim protectors this season along with Nance Jr. Luke relies on switches to a fault with these guys, but that's my extremely unproven theory. |
I think much of it is coaching, to be honest. We're giving up the highest FG% in the paint of any team in the league at like over 57% or something. IMO, a lot of that is because we're going small. Like, really small. Heck, we ran a 4th quarter lineup out there that featured Brandon Ingram at center. |
I think too much switching is killing us for sure, and I'm putting that on Luke.
BI at center... 
As for going small... again, Mozgov has been the opposite of good this season. I'm OK with Luke going small at times. But I think his "obsession" with it is more of a product of not having a larger backup center to go to... and he really can't keep Mozgov in for long stretches because he's not a good defender. All of our backup centers are smaller. Zubac isn't ready nor is he a good defender.
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justsomelakerfan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Expectations are subjective. |
Sure. But the guy called me out for having too high expectations, yet his own expectations on DLO's development are 27% short.
Anyway, if being ahead of schedule gets an A, being on schedule gets a B, then I'd give the Lakers a grade of C+/B-.
I want to see more from DLO, JC, and Ingram. I want to see career highs from these young guys, not career lows. Then we move it in to the B/A territory. Well, as in we I mean me =) |
Coming from someone who graded the Lakers are being where they should be right now, but could be falling behind later due to missing out on a lotto pick, I think you're honing into individual output a bit too much.
Luke's setting this team up to be a team effort. He could be going full Thibs and playing our young guys 35-37 mpg and constructing a team around three players, but that's not teaching them the value of team effort. That's a big part of Golden State's success. He's trying to build good habits early, and that choice is something that we'll discover if it pays off later. He's building a team where everyone's a threat. I can appreciate that, although I realize it impacts gaudy stats that Russ or maybe even Randle could be putting up with larger minutes.
I don't think we're seeing Summer League D'Angelo because he's focusing on sharing the ball more, which is a part of his game I'm glad to see open up. Sure, you can compare his PPG to Lavine and Booker, but remember, they're shooting guards. Russell's a point guard. And those two are getting way larger minutes, and they've been less effective for their teams. Lavine less so, but he's in his third year in the league. There's some subtlety in how good DLO's been. |
I think you're right, I would even admit that I am focusing on the individual outputs. For me, that's what this season is mainly about. Setting the stage for the emergence of one or more of our young core. Because the reality is, Nick/Lou who have spearheaded our wins, are not going to be here over the coming years.
But let's just take their stats out of the equation then.
My bottom line is that for me, to be ahead of schedule, almost all of our young guys have to be enjoying individual career highs across the board, one or more players emerge, we are pacing to win more games than last year and we're doing it through the young guys.
Also, why does everything have to be minutes reduction for DLO or Thibs? Why does everything have to be failure of a season or 30PPG and 2x DPOY? Why do you and others say those things? I don't want Luke to go full Thibs. But I don't want him to go full Bernie either. A player doesn't need to score 30PPG for me to be happy, how about a few more PPG on better percentages?
I've given the team basically a B- so far this year. Good progress but a lot of improvement that can and should still be made. What grade would you give them? |
I'm grading the team on a different scale in that I'm considering their future outlook after this season and giving them a B. I don't like at all that we're most likely missing out on a lotto pick and set to fall behind every youth movement in the league. But when I compare them this season to last, I do notice large enough improvement for me to say that they're at least where they should be, if not ahead considering they only won 17 games last season.
I disagree that wins have hinged on Nick/Lou. They've been contributing factors for sure, but keep in mind that Lou had his biggest games when everyone was injured, and we lost every game. The team has won by total committee, it just appears that Nick and Lou are saving us because in reality they've been clutch in the 4th. Luke is really aiming for a win-by-committee approach for better or worse.
I'd like to see Luke play Russell and Randle 30 minutes consistently regardless of the implications for us on defense. I know he's trying to build accountability in the young players... but especially with Russell, he needs at least stretches of larger play to build momentum. So, he doesn't have to go full Thibs, but I'd agree that 30 mpg would be ideal for those two. But I disagree with you in needing to see the ppg uptick though, because while I'd like to see the counting stats go up, I don't care about them being empty stats either.
Because if Russ and Randle were really tearing it up though, I think we'd see them play larger minutes. It's not like they're chained to the bench or anything. Both have been better, but also inconsistent.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Dude we didn't win 12 games until what, February last year? What else is needed. |
And we can thank Lou/Nick for that. But we also didn't have a streak of 12 losses in 13 games.
What I don't get is the binary nature of this discussion. Why does it have to be ahead of schedule or a travesty? Why does it have to be, well we didn't win our 12th game until February last year therefore the player development must be ahead of schedule?
It is neither to me. Is it that crazy to have expected slightly better numbers from DLO, better numbers and contribution from JC, and better shooting from Ingram?
I mean, I'm fully expecting their second half shooting to be better than it is. Are you not since we're already "ahead of schedule"? |
We lost 12 out of 13 when our best young player missed extended periods of time. DLO didn't have that kind of affect on the team last year at any point. He has clearly improved whether the stats bear it out or not.
Ingram is a rookie who is struggling to shoot the ball early in his rookie year. That's expected unless you bought into the "he's the next Durant" talk. On top of that he was 1 point 1 assist away from being the youngest player ever with a triple double and has shown an ability to play point as an 18 year old. He's at least on schedule.
Clarkson is averaging 14 a game as part of the best bench in the NBA. Most of LG has been saying for years that he projects to being a good sixth man/scoring punch off the bench. He's fulfilling that role while struggling to make reads which should've been expected.
It's becoming apparent you had too high of expectations for the young guys. They weren't going to turn into all stars over one offseason. |
Apparently I had too high of expectations? Didn't you expect 19 PPG on 32 MPG from Russell? If so, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Didn't you expect Clarkson to score around 16-18 PPG? He's below the bottom end of your range, how is he on or ahead of your schedule?
Did you expect Ingram to have the worst FG% of all active NBA players with the same or more attempts? No one did.
You guys seem to be making the fundamental error that if one believes the team is slightly behind schedule in its quest to develop the young guys, that there cannot be any improvements at all.
But it sure is funny to me that these young guys can be pacing behind your own published schedule and yet you're the accurate prognosticator that is telling others how their expectations were too high?
FWIW, I don't think your before-the-season schedule/prediction was all that crazy. I probably put similar expectations on the same players. But at least I'm owning it now. They're slightly behind where I, and apparently you, thought they would be. |
Less minutes than I expected. Better overall team play leading to more spread out statistics. I'm happy with what I'm SEEING from the team and not worrying about arbitrary statistical projections that I threw out pre season. THE TEAM is better than I expected and I'm atttibuting that to more than just Lou and Young exceeding expectations. Either way Russell is right around 19 per 32 min and Clarkson is one basket short of 16 and the season is still young. Pair that with the fact that we look like a playoff team when healthy and idk how they aren't exceeding expectations. If Russell and Young didn't get hurt, they could be a 500 team right now. |
Haha. I mean, on page 2 of this thread, you were patting yourself on the back about your preseason expectations on Ingram's struggle to shoot were spot on and how "unsurprised" you are by it. So you'll hang your hat on that one but then the ones you got wrong (DLO/JC), are now cast off as arbitrary preseason projections? Must be noice!
Anyway, for some of the reasons you listed, that's why I've said the team is slightly behind schedule. I do think they're playing well in spite of that though. Unlike you however, I attribute that primarily (though not entirely) to Nick, Lou, and Larry Nance all of whom are enjoying career highs in FG% across the board. Nance and Lou are also enjoying career highs in PPG. Lou and Nick are regularly closing out games.
But reality is, we are actually worse defensively than we were with Byron and the KFT if you can believe that and that should NOT be happening. Our young guys should be enjoying career highs across the board. That isn't happening. I really believe there is something with DLO/JC/Ingram and the new system that hasn't clicked yet. When it does, I think you will see them approach the arbitrary preseason predictions you made but no longer want to own. |
Not sure why you feel the need to desperately try and prove me wrong or why it upsets you so much that I think they are exceeding expectations despite falling short of my projected PPG. Saying Ingram's shooting is overrated on here isn't arbitrary. It's a broad claim that I believe has been proven right. Saying a player will score X ppg is much different than that. It's an arbitrary number I threw out as a guess. My guess, was wrong but that doesn't mean they're ahead or behind where they should be. When I watch the Lakers, I see them building something tangible and it was quicker than I expected until injuries started plaguing the team. If Russell and Clarkson were averaging 20 ppg but the team had 5 wins I wouldn't be saying we are ahead of schedule. You can give all the credit to Lou, Young and Nance if you want but that's incredibly unfair. Just look at what happened to the team when Russell went out. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| justsomelakerfan wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | | justsomelakerfan wrote: | | ringfinger, I hate saying it, but we could be worse defensively this season because we added worse defensive personnel this offseason to players who were already bad defenders. I'm trying to look at numbers for Deng and Mozgov's FG% allowed but I did see Deng on a list of worst rim protectors this season along with Nance Jr. Luke relies on switches to a fault with these guys, but that's my extremely unproven theory. |
I think much of it is coaching, to be honest. We're giving up the highest FG% in the paint of any team in the league at like over 57% or something. IMO, a lot of that is because we're going small. Like, really small. Heck, we ran a 4th quarter lineup out there that featured Brandon Ingram at center. |
I think too much switching is killing us for sure, and I'm putting that on Luke.
BI at center...
As for going small... again, Mozgov has been the opposite of good this season. I'm OK with Luke going small at times. But I think his "obsession" with it is more of a product of not having a larger backup center to go to... and he really can't keep Mozgov in for long stretches because he's not a good defender. All of our backup centers are smaller. Zubac isn't ready nor is he a good defender. |
Do you think Mozgov is worse than Hibbert though? I'd say they are probably a wash. We went small last year when Hibbert wasn't in with Brandon Bass and sometimes Tarik Black when he wasn't in the doghouse.
So fast forward now to this year, we are giving up more points at a higher FG% on shots within 5 feet than any other team in the NBA and at a rate slightly worse than last year.
And it's not bigs that are killing us either. It's guards. That to me, says team defense issues that need to be worked on. Where the opposing bigs gets us at times is on rebounds but the scoring is happening from guards. They are now recommending that fantasy managers stream opposing guards against the Lakers because we are so horrendous at it.
Anyway, this area is another reason for my B- and "slightly behind schedule" reasoning. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Not sure why you feel the need to desperately try and prove me wrong or why it upsets you so much that I think they are exceeding expectations despite falling short of my projected PPG. Saying Ingram's shooting is overrated on here isn't arbitrary. It's a broad claim that I believe has been proven right. Saying a player will score X ppg is much different than that. It's an arbitrary number I threw out as a guess. My guess, was wrong but that doesn't mean they're ahead or behind where they should be. When I watch the Lakers, I see them building something tangible and it was quicker than I expected until injuries started plaguing the team. If Russell and Clarkson were averaging 20 ppg but the team had 5 wins I wouldn't be saying we are ahead of schedule. You can give all the credit to Lou, Young and Nance if you want but that's incredibly unfair. Just look at what happened to the team when Russell went out. |
I'm fine debating the merits but you called me out on having too high expectations. All I'm doing, is taking the very similar if not same expectations that you and I both had coming in to the season and seeing where we are now. Based on those, we are behind.
If you want to throw out the predictions you had that were wrong, and just keep the one you got right, that's fine, but don't call me out for having unrealistic expectations when my expectations were right in line with yours!
I do agree though that if DLO and JC were averaging 20 PPG but the team had 5 wins that we would be behind schedule. What I've been saying is that I want to see those guys approaching those numbers AND getting more wins than last year. To me, that is being on schedule and that is very reasonable given the low bar set by Byron last year.
If DLO and Ingram were shooting 20% from the field averaging 5 pts and 2 assists a piece but we were winning 12 games so far, I'd also say we were very behind schedule. You might talk about how mindblowing the season is, but I wouldn't because it wouldn't be for me.
I want more wins than last year and across the board statistical improvements from our young core. That, for me, is being ahead of schedule. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Not sure why you feel the need to desperately try and prove me wrong or why it upsets you so much that I think they are exceeding expectations despite falling short of my projected PPG. Saying Ingram's shooting is overrated on here isn't arbitrary. It's a broad claim that I believe has been proven right. Saying a player will score X ppg is much different than that. It's an arbitrary number I threw out as a guess. My guess, was wrong but that doesn't mean they're ahead or behind where they should be. When I watch the Lakers, I see them building something tangible and it was quicker than I expected until injuries started plaguing the team. If Russell and Clarkson were averaging 20 ppg but the team had 5 wins I wouldn't be saying we are ahead of schedule. You can give all the credit to Lou, Young and Nance if you want but that's incredibly unfair. Just look at what happened to the team when Russell went out. |
I'm fine debating the merits but you called me out on having too high expectations. All I'm doing, is taking the very similar if not same expectations that you and I both had coming in to the season and seeing where we are now. Based on those, we are behind.
If you want to throw out the predictions you had that were wrong, and just keep the one you got right, that's fine, but don't call me out for having unrealistic expectations when my expectations were right in line with yours!
I do agree though that if DLO and JC were averaging 20 PPG but the team had 5 wins that we would be behind schedule. What I've been saying is that I want to see those guys approaching those numbers AND getting more wins than last year. To me, that is being on schedule and that is very reasonable given the low bar set by Byron last year.
If DLO and Ingram were shooting 20% from the field averaging 5 pts and 2 assists a piece but we were winning 12 games so far, I'd also say we were very behind schedule. You might talk about how mindblowing the season is, but I wouldn't because it wouldn't be for me.
I want more wins than last year and across the board statistical improvements from our young core. That, for me, is being ahead of schedule. |
And to me those expectations are too high. Every young player was never going to improve in every statistical category. Especially, 30 games into a season with a new coach and system.
I guessed how many PPG players were going to average. I didn't say they need to average X amount of points to be on schedule. With Ingram, I never guessed a FG% I just said that he won't be the shooter many predict him to be, that's correct.
Just because we had similar predictions on PPG for certain players doesn't mean we had the same expectations. I expected better ball movement, more competitiveness, and a better overall team. I think all those have happened. I expected Russell to be our MVP. I think that happened. I expected Clarkson to be a valuable scorer off the bench. That happened. The fact I didn't guess the exact amount of points Clarkson and Russell will score doesn't mean much to me. Now I'm moving on, I'm done repeating myself because you had unrealistic expectations of the team and can't see the tangible improvements the team has made. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: |
I think you're right, I would even admit that I am focusing on the individual outputs. For me, that's what this season is mainly about. Setting the stage for the emergence of one or more of our young core. Because the reality is, Nick/Lou who have spearheaded our wins, are not going to be here over the coming years.
But let's just take their stats out of the equation then.
My bottom line is that for me, to be ahead of schedule, almost all of our young guys have to be enjoying individual career highs across the board, one or more players emerge, we are pacing to win more games than last year and we're doing it through the young guys.
Also, why does everything have to be minutes reduction for DLO or Thibs? Why does everything have to be failure of a season or 30PPG and 2x DPOY? Why do you and others say those things? I don't want Luke to go full Thibs. But I don't want him to go full Bernie either. A player doesn't need to score 30PPG for me to be happy, how about a few more PPG on better percentages?
I've given the team basically a B- so far this year. Good progress but a lot of improvement that can and should still be made. What grade would you give them? |
I don't agree with the bolded, but as yinona posted, this is all just subjective. I look at team, and how they are performing. It isn't unusual for a player's stats to decrease when team play increases. Champion Kobe in 2010 had worse stats than first round exit Kobe in 2006, and that was because he had to sacrifice to make the team better. I realize that isn't an apples to apples comparison to players in their first through third seasons, but the concept is proven.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | And to me those expectations are too high. Every young player was never going to improve in every statistical category. Especially, 30 games into a season with a new coach and system.
I guessed how many PPG players were going to average. I didn't say they need to average X amount of points to be on schedule. With Ingram, I never guessed a FG% I just said that he won't be the shooter many predict him to be, that's correct.
Just because we had similar predictions on PPG for certain players doesn't mean we had the same expectations. I expected better ball movement, more competitiveness, and a better overall team. I think all those have happened. I expected Russell to be our MVP. I think that happened. I expected Clarkson to be a valuable scorer off the bench. That happened. The fact I didn't guess the exact amount of points Clarkson and Russell will score doesn't mean much to me. Now I'm moving on, I'm done repeating myself because you had unrealistic expectations of the team and can't see the tangible improvements the team has made. |
Fair enough. But I think you have unrealistically low expectations of the team. Any good NBA player will typically post better across the board numbers the second and third seasons of their career. They tend to get more minutes, the game slows down for them, etc. It's rare to predict that a second or third year NBA player will see a reduction in numbers.
I'm shocked that people would say that expecting better numbers from a second or third year player relative to their previous year is unrealistic.
Even if we had Byron Scott I would expect these young guys to be posting better numbers across the board than they did last year.
At any rate, if DLO/JC/Ingram post improved numbers over the remainder of the season, and we win at or better than our current pace, then we can say you were the unrealistic one who had expectations that were too low. For now, I guess I'll be the crazy one who expected 2nd/3rd year players to post numbers that are clearly improved over their previous year. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: |
I think you're right, I would even admit that I am focusing on the individual outputs. For me, that's what this season is mainly about. Setting the stage for the emergence of one or more of our young core. Because the reality is, Nick/Lou who have spearheaded our wins, are not going to be here over the coming years.
But let's just take their stats out of the equation then.
My bottom line is that for me, to be ahead of schedule, almost all of our young guys have to be enjoying individual career highs across the board, one or more players emerge, we are pacing to win more games than last year and we're doing it through the young guys.
Also, why does everything have to be minutes reduction for DLO or Thibs? Why does everything have to be failure of a season or 30PPG and 2x DPOY? Why do you and others say those things? I don't want Luke to go full Thibs. But I don't want him to go full Bernie either. A player doesn't need to score 30PPG for me to be happy, how about a few more PPG on better percentages?
I've given the team basically a B- so far this year. Good progress but a lot of improvement that can and should still be made. What grade would you give them? |
I don't agree with the bolded, but as yinona posted, this is all just subjective. I look at team, and how they are performing. It isn't unusual for a player's stats to decrease when team play increases. Champion Kobe in 2010 had worse stats than first round exit Kobe in 2006, and that was because he had to sacrifice to make the team better. I realize that isn't an apples to apples comparison to players in their first through third seasons, but the concept is proven. |
Yeah, that's not a great comparison because we're talking about young players. If the players were in their prime years, I'd buy your argument for sure. Plus, the 2006 Kobe was an outlier. He's taken the same, approximate number of shots every other season.
But even using your argument of Kobe, because he was sharing the ball, he wasn't taking as many forced, bad shots. As a result, his FG% went up relative to the Smush years. In our case, the FG% is trending down. That's why I think something isn't clicking. The efficiency there should be up, and I suspect it will be over the remainder of the season.
JC for instance, has seen FG% declines in every season since he entered the league. You have half the forum wanting to trade him away already. That's not him being ahead of schedule to me. That's him being behind schedule.
But again, as I said above, my expectations for EVERY young 2nd/3rd year player in the league, regardless of whether they are on the Lakers or not, is that they should post better numbers across the board than their previous year because they should be a better NBA player than they were.
If they are not doing that, it may be the system, it may be new players, it may be a number of factors and reasons, but that's not the development arc I want to be seeing for a young player.
Would you be surprised if they posted better numbers in the next 50 games or so? Because I wouldn't. I expect it. |
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LakersRGolden
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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The team is roughly on expectation. They keep building large leads and then losing them. They manage some quality wins, but let easy ones get away. They can't win with injuries. Spending playing time on youth is costing a few wins. This is what we knew would happen before game #1.
* D-Lo is showing flashes often, but cannot keep it up long enough to take that "leap"
* Ingram is showing a lot of "issues" on offense, but that is expected.
* Randle's game is changing but he's regressing as much as he's improving. He still can't score on the right side of the court. He's increased his range, but his boards have dropped. His D is spotty at best.
* Young blew away everyone's expectations
* Moz is above everyone's expectations of 0 from the start of the year.
* Deng is way below everyone's expectations
* Nance is above everyone's expectations unless being healthy was one of them.
* JC is having problems finding his role. Hopefully it's not the "Just got paid" syndrome.
- Luke. He's definitely revamped the systems. I'm not wildly crazy about some of the rotations, but there are trade-offs. |
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P.K.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | P.K. wrote: | This team is 12-22 right now, for a 35.3% win rate - even after a lot of injuries, one of the toughest schedules in the NBA, and a killer road trip. And they've been competitive in almost every game (almost).
Projected across all 82 games, 35.3% is 29 wins.
That's exactly in the range what was projected by most sports sites, most of the posters here, etc.
Before training camp, I'd expected they'd play better as the season went on, and they gained experience. If they live up to that expectation, they'll probably exceed the projected win totals...
I'd say they're considerably exceeding expectations. |
Iirc most betting sites had us at 22-24 wins |
IIRC ESPN had us at 27, and the majority of LG'rs had us around 30.
so, a projected 29 is more or less inline. (I'd guessed we'd probably be around 32 myself, with a range from 30-35).
however, I also expect they'll get somewhat better as the season goes on, so I think they'll get better than the current 35% win rate.
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Roon
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone is talking about DLO's lack of breakout. Give the kid a break he missed 10 games in the middle of the season learning a new system with a new head coach with 3 new starters at 20 years old.
That applies to the entire team too. 20ish games into a season with their new head coach, new system and 3 new starters, their lead guard, and best shooting guard were injured.
They have the best bench in the league, that sure beats expectations.
I thought the whole idea was the Lakers would suck through this tough strech of games, and pick it up the second half of the year. We did pretty well until the injuries, which really broke our continuity, and now it looks like we're picking it up again afterwards.
This home stretch will be huge. More rest, more practice, less travel, easier schedule. I bet they'll be (re)introducing/drilling some of the more important defensive concepts that we've struggled with on this road stretch. It's one thing to tell a young player what he did wrong, it's another thing to drill and work through the problem. |
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