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Bol Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 4045
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Byron was bad. The team is also bad. Let's face it, when Lou Williams is your team's leading scorer, you know you have a terrible team. I have faith in Luke, but it's going to take some big acquisitions or some major player development to right this ship. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Plaza234 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: |
No, it isn't the same, this team is more balanced and playing actual NBA systems on offense and defense. |
If that's true, either the system sucks or the players suck. It has to be one or the other to pile up L after L after L.
Pick one. |
The one I would pick would get me banned, so I will pass. But hey, what have you done for me lately? Amirite? A little patience is needed, not being irrational and overreacting. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Scoffs Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Aug 2001 Posts: 874
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Byron's head games with Russell bothered me and starting Sacre and Ryan Kelly bothered me.
Luke, not figuring out that we need more size with Mozzy out and letting JC over dribble and take bad shots, bothers me. |
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55 Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 12092
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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After the hot start, I would've never imagined that things would get so low that now we are debating whether Byron was the problem or not. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Byron has been the problem everywhere he has coached. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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Ujah's Goat Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2016 Posts: 1417 Location: Babylon
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | Byron has been the problem everywhere he has coached. |
I think OP is saying that we were sucking before Byron, during Byron, and now after Byron. Can't really disagree. I mean you can, but that doesn't change the fact that we have been sucking for years now. |
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Daphanabe Star Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Posts: 2768
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | justsomelakerfan wrote: | ringfinger wrote: | I still hate Byron.
I just hate that Luke, in spite of being a more likable guy, is heading in to Byron territory. |
Dude, Luke has made mistakes but he's nowhere near Byron territory. And if he ever trends negative, the Byron direction won't be it.
Luke's problems are his even minutes spread and defensive coaching. Those are his two big problems. He's had some lesser issues, like his subbing for D'Angelo and less minutes he received (which are now trending upward).
To compare the two is kind of nuts. There's a post just before this listing a lot of intangibles this team has improved on, which are also huge. |
Luke is obviously nothing like Byron so I'm not saying they are comparable.
I'm saying Luke better turn this ship around to avoid heading in to Byron territory. |
Luke is so far from Byron territory, this can't be brought up for another decade or so. Luke would have to take multiple teams to deep lottery, and have multiple losing seasons, and have the literal worst winning percentage of any coach before this topic becomes viable. |
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tox Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015 Posts: 17835
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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ORTG/ DRTG: 19/29
Last year: 29/30
It's not Luke's fault you don't understand incremental progress.
Last edited by tox on Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HOF Rookie Star Player
Joined: 09 Jun 2015 Posts: 1717
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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In the couple years that Byron was here, was there a stretch of games where you thought we played good ball? Luke came in and had us playing solid ball early on. Now it's time to make adjustments.
This is a poorly thought out thread |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Ujah's Goat wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Byron has been the problem everywhere he has coached. |
I think OP is saying that we were sucking before Byron, during Byron, and now after Byron. Can't really disagree. I mean you can, but that doesn't change the fact that we have been sucking for years now. |
And if the argument is that if we suck now after firing Byron, then it's a statement on him not being that bad of a coach, then that's an extremely narrow view of how teams operate.
Byron was exclusively bad, separate to the team's inexperience and poor construct. However, he was also a bad coach for that team, and a toxic one at that. So he was a bad coach, and a bad fit for the team who damaged morale and created bad habits.
We now have a much better coach in every facet. But the team is still I experienced and still doesn't have any star players to call it a good construct. So they still suck.
But that does NOT take away how awful Byron was, because he hurt our teams. _________________ Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz |
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cirehawk Star Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 5516
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Hey fellow Israelites I know wandering the desert is tough but let's go back to Egypt and Pharoah. He whipped us but at least we had a roof over our heads so to speak. |
Well if you're going with that reference, better point out the other side. Had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years while waiting for a whole generation of fearful and disobedient people to die off. Uh oh, might be a long time before we enter the promised land again. |
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paolomagma Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2009 Posts: 2395
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Byron was definitely the problem.
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Ujah's Goat Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2016 Posts: 1417 Location: Babylon
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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justsomelakerfan wrote: | Ujah's Goat wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Byron has been the problem everywhere he has coached. |
I think OP is saying that we were sucking before Byron, during Byron, and now after Byron. Can't really disagree. I mean you can, but that doesn't change the fact that we have been sucking for years now. |
And if the argument is that if we suck now after firing Byron, then it's a statement on him not being that bad of a coach, then that's an extremely narrow view of how teams operate.
Byron was exclusively bad, separate to the team's inexperience and poor construct. However, he was also a bad coach for that team, and a toxic one at that. So he was a bad coach, and a bad fit for the team who damaged morale and created bad habits.
We now have a much better coach in every facet. But the team is still I experienced and still doesn't have any star players to call it a good construct. So they still suck.
But that does NOT take away how awful Byron was, because he hurt our teams. |
I won't argue the merits of Byron Scott because they were almost nonexistent. However, if one is looking only at results we have plateaud as a lotto team regardless of the coach. The win/loss column is the facet that matters the most. |
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Don Draper Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28422 Location: LA --> Bay Area
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Byron was a big problem. The main difference between this year and last is that, last year, our guys were never put into a situation where they could succeed. This year, guys are getting good looks and decent opportunities but are blowing open shots and missing defensive assignments.
You could say that they need to man up, but I think what they really need is something to fight for, or someone at least to show them how to fight. And by that I mean QUALITY veteran leadership.
This team would greatly benefit from having one 26-30 year old borderline all-star who's desperate for a ring/wins in general. Guys like Lou, Deng, and Nick are all washed up and/or perennial losers who couldn't care less about winning at this point (IMO). We need a guy in the mold of Batum, Isaiah Thomas, Horford, Hayward, Gasol, Conley, etc. who can show our guys what it means to want to win. But those guys are hard to come by, so our only real course of action is to wait it out and hope one of your young guns matures quickly enough to take that burden upon their own shoulders. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Don Draper wrote: | Byron was a big problem. The main difference between this year and last is that, last year, our guys were never put into a situation where they could succeed. This year, guys are getting good looks and decent opportunities but are blowing open shots and missing defensive assignments.
You could say that they need to man up, but I think what they really need is something to fight for, or someone at least to show them how to fight. And by that I mean QUALITY veteran leadership.
This team would greatly benefit from having one 26-30 year old borderline all-star who's desperate for a ring/wins in general. Guys like Lou, Deng, and Nick are all washed up and/or perennial losers who couldn't care less about winning at this point (IMO). We need a guy in the mold of Batum, Isaiah Thomas, Horford, Hayward, Gasol, Conley, etc. who can show our guys what it means to want to win. But those guys are hard to come by, so our only real course of action is to wait it out and hope one of your young guns matures quickly enough to take that burden upon their own shoulders. |
This is why I wanted Derozen. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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FreakofNature Star Player
Joined: 28 Sep 2007 Posts: 9187 Location: Maui ...
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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BS/Buss kids/and Mitch are the problems....Sell the team, have the kids and Mitch join BS in oblivion.... |
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LakerLanny Retired Number
Joined: 24 Oct 2001 Posts: 47565
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Byron was a bad coach but an easy scapegoat.
He also was getting conflicted messages from management in my opinion.
That said, no coach is winning big with this roster. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38751
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, but a coach is not supposed to demotivate your players....that was what Byron did to the Lakers the past 2 years. Look the Lakers may not be achieving their potential right now, but they are still young and learning a new offensive system.....which Byron didn't really have. |
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Shaber Star Player
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 3731 Location: The other side
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Byron was a huge problem and part of our struggles this year are still caused by him.
I mean the lack of intensity on defense is a mental thing. A habit that was learned over last seasons. And byron had a huge impact on that. If he actually coached for D as he so often talked about, this team would have different habits and we'd see different game results. _________________ .
Lakers depth chart
PG Johnson / Goodrich
SG Bryant / West / Scott
SF Baylor / Worthy / Cooper
PF Mikkelsen / Hairston / McAdoo / Gasol
C Chamberlain / Abdul-Jabbar / O'Neal / Mikan |
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cthroatgtr Star Player
Joined: 21 Aug 2005 Posts: 1375
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Big difference here between the two. Luke knows that Ingram's offense is hurting the team, but he understands that Ingram needs to develop. Byron would have sucked his playing time because of it. Further Byron would have buried Swaggy and started Lou again. Lou is not the future but is the Lakers best offensive player. Swaggy is the second best. Neither is the future though. Luke could have saw Ingram and played both down the stretch for more offense, maybe they win, but that isn't the future.
Luke said it best, winning is the not the primary goal it is the process and developing. The team had a brutal stretch of games coupled with injuries and bad habits formed. Tough to get practice time in with that schedule.
Right now defense is the biggest issue. Second biggest is the shooting has dipped. A lot of that is Lou has struggled of late, probably tired from carrying the team. I think they miss Tarik and definitely miss Nance. The second unit is no longer carrying the team. The first team has generally been better, but Russell seems to struggle once he returns to the game for some reason.
Biggest issue with Byron was playing mind games with the youth of this team and that is not OK. It's not always about wins and losses. Team started hot but even if they made the playoffs, they wouldn't stick around very long. They need to develop the young guys first, win second. They also need to address a few key areas, mostly at guard, where they have no true wing defender and probably need a defensive minded PG to play with Russell. |
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governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Byron was brought in to cover up a tanking process and to let Kobe ride out into the sunset guns blazing.
Maybe i'm in the minority but we've been in all these games we played this season. Far from the blown outs that was the norm last season. Luke has them playing to win even though they haven't win a lot yet |
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ningchi Rookie
Joined: 19 May 2016 Posts: 8
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Biggest difference between Luke and Byron is that Luke is providing a template and framework to succeed. We've seen flashes of how good they can become and tangible things that they can work on to improve. Their offensive and defensive principles look modern, it's just execution is lacking at the moment so you can visibly see that there is a direction and a path for the team to forge through that will lead to growth and wins.
With Byron on the other hand, they would just lose and lose and you had no clue what the hell the coaching staff was actually working on from a bball standpoint to improve. Were they working on implementing new offensive sets setting up different defensive rotations? No none of that it was just a lot of talk about manning up sending the team through counterproductive suicides and wind sprints until they threw up. And after losses as a fan you just have an inevitable feeling that the path forward was just going to be more losses.
With Luke you know he and his coaching staff are doing he right things for the most part. To sit here and say he is like Byron is utterly insulting. |
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greenfrog Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 Posts: 36081 Location: 502 Bad Gateway
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: |
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cthroatgtr wrote: | Big difference here between the two. Luke knows that Ingram's offense is hurting the team, but he understands that Ingram needs to develop. Byron would have sucked his playing time because of it. Further Byron would have buried Swaggy and started Lou again. Lou is not the future but is the Lakers best offensive player. Swaggy is the second best. Neither is the future though. Luke could have saw Ingram and played both down the stretch for more offense, maybe they win, but that isn't the future.
Luke said it best, winning is the not the primary goal it is the process and developing. The team had a brutal stretch of games coupled with injuries and bad habits formed. Tough to get practice time in with that schedule.
Right now defense is the biggest issue. Second biggest is the shooting has dipped. A lot of that is Lou has struggled of late, probably tired from carrying the team. I think they miss Tarik and definitely miss Nance. The second unit is no longer carrying the team. The first team has generally been better, but Russell seems to struggle once he returns to the game for some reason.
Biggest issue with Byron was playing mind games with the youth of this team and that is not OK. It's not always about wins and losses. Team started hot but even if they made the playoffs, they wouldn't stick around very long. They need to develop the young guys first, win second. They also need to address a few key areas, mostly at guard, where they have no true wing defender and probably need a defensive minded PG to play with Russell. |
Wasn't it early in the season? It's almost like after the promising start and ensuing dry spell he just said (bleep) this and went 100% on the development front. I won't call it tanking, but since just keeping it close can now qualify as an achievement having another asset (pick) for next season wouldn't hurt in the process either. |
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Cochese Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Apr 2016 Posts: 957
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Damn, lol. I found last year's brand of Lakers basketball to be nearly unwatchable. Byron didn't know what he was doing out there. Outdated style. I'm amazed how quickly people forget. |
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danzag Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 Posts: 22244 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Byron was easily the worst coach the Lakers ever had. |
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