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Krispy Kreme
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Joined: 30 Mar 2003
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 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | the first key is to have the players continue to grow. we also need a big time FA. whether it's this year, or in 3 years or whatever. A durant, a westbrook, etc to take us to the next level.
but Jim buss thinks we'll contend this year?
"My brother assured me that by the summer of 2017 that we would be back in contention," Buss said, and repeated what Jim told her at the family meeting when he told his siblings about his self-imposed deadline. "'If I can't do that then I'm not the right person for the job.' So he even acknowledged that a change would need to be made."
Maybe Jim was assuming we were going to get Durant or Westbrook this year. Either way, that clown is wrong again. And I'm sure he won't honor his "promise" at the end of this season either. I don't think he should have made that promise to begin with. It was stupid in every way. But considering the source, it's not surprising.
GS is in their prime. Clippers have 2-3 more years left IMO. Houston is a question mark. Spurs never seem to die, but they have 2 great all-stars in their prime, with great coaching. We are probably looking at a 6-8 seed for the next 2-3 seasons (Starting with next year).
I believe in Luke, but it's going to be 5-7 years before we are true contenders in the WCF. Obviously a big time FA can change that. |
The Jeanie Buss quote that you're mentioning is more than a year old. I haven't heard anyone talk that way for a long time or mention the deadline in a long time. So I don't think that quote is relevant anymore |
Jeanie has even backtracked on it, but why bother with reality. |
Jeanie wasn't the one who first said it. She realizes that promise Jim made isn't going to come to fruition. So she's doing damage control, so the media isn't asking her in the off-season, "wait, Jim is going to step down, right?"
Now she's trying to save him, from a media standpoint.
He shouldn't have made that promise to begin with. This team is 3-4 years away at best in terms of contending. Looks like Jim was wrong. Again. But why bother with pointing that out.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: |
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That isn't going to happen, the Buss kids own the Lakers, one of them will have the final say.
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Krispy Kreme
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | That isn't going to happen, the Buss kids own the Lakers, one of them will have the final say. |
You're probably right
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Krispy Kreme wrote: |
Jeanie wasn't the one who first said it. She realizes that promise Jim made isn't going to come to fruition. So she's doing damage control, so the media isn't asking her in the off-season, "wait, Jim is going to step down, right?"
Now she's trying to save him, from a media standpoint.
He shouldn't have made that promise to begin with. This team is 3-4 years away at best in terms of contending. Looks like Jim was wrong. Again. But why bother with pointing that out. |
Right, so it is now a non-story.
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laker4life
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Joined: 26 Nov 2001
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: | | tox wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
why do we have to replace Jim Buss with another Buss kid?
Jim Buss will still be an owner.
If the team does not reach the Western conference Finals, he should resign as he previously promised. |
There is always an owner that has final say. In the current iteration it's Jim. But even if Jim is gone, someone in the ownership (read: a Buss) has ultimate say. Which is VLF's point. |
Every owner is sports has the final say. That is not an excuse to continue having Jim Buss as the head of bball operations. We need to put into place a better basketball mind to run basketball operations and a new GM that is not on the downside of his career. Owners are always there in every sports franchise but the smart ones allow others more qualified to manage the team's personnel moves while only giving a veto if they strongly are against the move(s) trying to be made. |
So I will repeat the question, which Buss kid do you want having final say on deals? The one person who can quash a deal that a better basketball mind might propose? Or change it at their whim? |
Personally, since I do not know the Buss kids personally or the dynamic of the Buss families, I really do not care who makes the final decision.
If Jim does resigns or leaves, I will worry about it at that time.
there are too many variables.
First, Jim has to leave. Second, who will replace Jim.
I think that some of the fans enjoyed the way the Lakers were operated with Dr. Buss who basically was the owner and generally deferred to people like Jerry West and Kupchak during that time.
If the organization operates in a similar manner, people would be happy. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:09 am Post subject: |
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And Jim defers to Mitch and lately Ryan West. I don't know what people think goes on in the Laker FO, but it seems fictional based on how things really work.
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laker4life
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | the first key is to have the players continue to grow. we also need a big time FA. whether it's this year, or in 3 years or whatever. A durant, a westbrook, etc to take us to the next level.
but Jim buss thinks we'll contend this year?
"My brother assured me that by the summer of 2017 that we would be back in contention," Buss said, and repeated what Jim told her at the family meeting when he told his siblings about his self-imposed deadline. "'If I can't do that then I'm not the right person for the job.' So he even acknowledged that a change would need to be made."
Maybe Jim was assuming we were going to get Durant or Westbrook this year. Either way, that clown is wrong again. And I'm sure he won't honor his "promise" at the end of this season either. I don't think he should have made that promise to begin with. It was stupid in every way. But considering the source, it's not surprising.
GS is in their prime. Clippers have 2-3 more years left IMO. Houston is a question mark. Spurs never seem to die, but they have 2 great all-stars in their prime, with great coaching. We are probably looking at a 6-8 seed for the next 2-3 seasons (Starting with next year).
I believe in Luke, but it's going to be 5-7 years before we are true contenders in the WCF. Obviously a big time FA can change that. |
The Jeanie Buss quote that you're mentioning is more than a year old. I haven't heard anyone talk that way for a long time or mention the deadline in a long time. So I don't think that quote is relevant anymore |
Jeanie has even backtracked on it, but why bother with reality. |
Jeanie wasn't the one who first said it. She realizes that promise Jim made isn't going to come to fruition. So she's doing damage control, so the media isn't asking her in the off-season, "wait, Jim is going to step down, right?"
Now she's trying to save him, from a media standpoint.
He shouldn't have made that promise to begin with. This team is 3-4 years away at best in terms of contending. Looks like Jim was wrong. Again. But why bother with pointing that out. |
How can you conclude that this team is 3 to 4 years from contending.
These players are still growing up.
I hope that you are right but I believe no one can predict with any such confidence that one of these four players will become a true superstar or even an all star in this league.
Presently, I believe that we have the right coach. We just need to have the right players. |
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LakersRGolden
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Jerry didn't really defer that much. West had to threaten to quit a few times to keep Jerry from doing some stupid moves. It's a spectrum and will change as Jim works with Mitch. Should that happen. |
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USCandLakers
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Joined: 13 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
None. Jeanie is too emotional and Jim is too dumb.
I'd rather a 3rd party come in and run the show. Who? No idea. We'll see candidates when/if the time comes.
But that's not how Jerry wanted it. But hey, at the end of the day, it's what is best for this organization. It would have been ideal for Jim/Jeanie to work well together and to be successful POST Jerry Buss. |
If Jeanie were too emotional Jim would've been gone already, Phil in his place.
She's either this machiavellian some on this forum imagines she is, or she's emotional(or she's neither). I haven't seen her make any emotional decisions in her power position. In fact I haven't seen her make any decisions at all. Jim and Mitch have been making all the decisions, and they're the ones that need to be expunged for this franchise to be successful moving forward.
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
None. Jeanie is too emotional and Jim is too dumb.
I'd rather a 3rd party come in and run the show. Who? No idea. We'll see candidates when/if the time comes.
But that's not how Jerry wanted it. But hey, at the end of the day, it's what is best for this organization. It would have been ideal for Jim/Jeanie to work well together and to be successful POST Jerry Buss. |
If Jeanie were too emotional Jim would've been gone already, Phil in his place.
She's either this machiavellian some on this forum imagines she is, or she's emotional(or she's neither). I haven't seen her make any emotional decisions in her power position. In fact I haven't seen her make any decisions at all. Jim and Mitch have been making all the decisions, and they're the ones that need to be expunged for this franchise to be successful moving forward. |
Jeanie didn't have the family votes.
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | I explained how you just keep doing mental gymnastics. It's simple replace Jim and Mitch in their current roles. It's been done before many times. Are you trying to tell me that Jim will be in charge no matter how poorly he performs?  Jeanie even explicitly states she can fire Jim. It's time for another buss to have the final say on bball. Johnny and Joey all competent more professional people than Jimmy has been. |
No, your reading comprehension is just poor. Only at this current post did you answer the question. Apparently your conclusion working with the D-Fenders or the Sparks should give you final say over someone who worked with Dr. Buss & Jerry West & Phil (which is your opinion, fair enough).
That's what I was asking for. |
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tox
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
None. Jeanie is too emotional and Jim is too dumb.
I'd rather a 3rd party come in and run the show. Who? No idea. We'll see candidates when/if the time comes.
But that's not how Jerry wanted it. But hey, at the end of the day, it's what is best for this organization. It would have been ideal for Jim/Jeanie to work well together and to be successful POST Jerry Buss. |
If Jeanie were too emotional Jim would've been gone already, Phil in his place.
She's either this machiavellian some on this forum imagines she is, or she's emotional(or she's neither). I haven't seen her make any emotional decisions in her power position. In fact I haven't seen her make any decisions at all. Jim and Mitch have been making all the decisions, and they're the ones that need to be expunged for this franchise to be successful moving forward. |
This emotional thing comes off to me as blatant sexism, personally. Like she's a woman and therefore she's emotional... Garbage argument. |
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Deathstroke
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: | | tox wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
why do we have to replace Jim Buss with another Buss kid?
Jim Buss will still be an owner.
If the team does not reach the Western conference Finals, he should resign as he previously promised. |
There is always an owner that has final say. In the current iteration it's Jim. But even if Jim is gone, someone in the ownership (read: a Buss) has ultimate say. Which is VLF's point. |
Every owner is sports has the final say. That is not an excuse to continue having Jim Buss as the head of bball operations. We need to put into place a better basketball mind to run basketball operations and a new GM that is not on the downside of his career. Owners are always there in every sports franchise but the smart ones allow others more qualified to manage the team's personnel moves while only giving a veto if they strongly are against the move(s) trying to be made. |
Ok but you still haven't answered the question, say Jim steps down and they replace him with somebody from San Antonio or another uncontroversial choice. You still need someone with ultimate say if the new bball ops guy makes a controversial decision. Who is it? |
It won't matter as long as they let the gm/bball ops people do their job. You guys act like other teams don't have owners with final say |
????
Other teams do have owners with final say, so I could tell you who they are. Who is LA's Mark Cuban/ Dan Gilbert/ Leslie Alexander etc ?? |
Each Buss has an equal vote. They could put any of them in the "Cuban" position. Johnny or Joey most likely. Like I said tho it doesn't matter because the actual work and decision making is done by the gm. The owner can veto any move but good owners trust and let their bball people make moves. This final say excuse is a new straw the Jimmy defenders are grasping at now that Phil and Jeanie broke up |
Reading comprehension is key 
Answer this how long do you give Jim before it's time to move on? |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: |
Reading comprehension is key
Answer this how long do you give Jim before it's time to move on? |
Not really, your answer was basically "no one has final say, but depending on the votes, various people might end up as final say, most likely Johnny or Joey." That's different than saying "Johnny would be the final vote in case of a 3-3 split opinion" which is what I was asking about. Re-read your post again. Even if that's not what you meant, it's what you wrote.
As far as how many years: I'll let this rebuild play out. Randle & Russell are 2nd year players and Ingram is a 1st year player... this is our core and I'd wait at least 2 years and see what they become and how they grow together (they comprise an excellent fit). We saw yesterday a glimpse of what they can be as they basically demolished an excellent defensive team. |
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Deathstroke
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: |
Reading comprehension is key
Answer this how long do you give Jim before it's time to move on? |
Not really, your answer was basically "no one has final say, but depending on the votes, various people might end up as final say, most likely Johnny or Joey." That's different than saying "Johnny would be the final vote in case of a 3-3 split opinion" which is what I was asking about. Re-read your post again. Even if that's not what you meant, it's what you wrote.
As far as how many years: I'll let this rebuild play out. Randle & Russell are 2nd year players and Ingram is a 1st year player... this is our core and I'd wait at least 2 years and see what they become and how they grow together (they comprise an excellent fit). We saw yesterday a glimpse of what they can be as they basically demolished an excellent defensive team. |
Wrong that's not what I said you need to re-read my post maybe you'll see my point.
Let's say it doesn't pan out in 2 years, what then? What would you want to happen? By asking who replaces Jim so vehemently, are you trying to say it's Jim in charge til death do us part? |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Deathstroke wrote: | | tox wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: |
Reading comprehension is key
Answer this how long do you give Jim before it's time to move on? |
Not really, your answer was basically "no one has final say, but depending on the votes, various people might end up as final say, most likely Johnny or Joey." That's different than saying "Johnny would be the final vote in case of a 3-3 split opinion" which is what I was asking about. Re-read your post again. Even if that's not what you meant, it's what you wrote.
As far as how many years: I'll let this rebuild play out. Randle & Russell are 2nd year players and Ingram is a 1st year player... this is our core and I'd wait at least 2 years and see what they become and how they grow together (they comprise an excellent fit). We saw yesterday a glimpse of what they can be as they basically demolished an excellent defensive team. |
Wrong that's not what I said you need to re-read my post maybe you'll see my point.
Let's say it doesn't pan out in 2 years, what then? What would you want to happen? By asking who replaces Jim so vehemently, are you trying to say it's Jim in charge til death do us part? |
I did re-read your post. You didn't say what you think you said... but that's neither here nor there.
Anyways, I'm saying before you get so gung ho about replacing Jim, you should have a feasible answer in mind for both his replacement and who fills in the "Gilbert" or "Cuban" role in the case of a 3/3 split among the Buss children. If RC Buford became available, I'd remove Jim ASAP. I'd still want him as a mostly hands off owner who has ultimate say, because no one else has nearly the amount of experience he does.
If the rebuild fails in 2 years, then sure look for a replacement for Jim as head of bball ops (especially if the Moz/ Deng contracts crippled us... not really a fan of judging people on hindsight bias, but those two were bad moves to begin with)... but I won't be screaming for his replacement until there's someone better available. And even then, I'd have him be the equivalent of Cuban or Gilbert or Holt... but more hands off like Holt is at this point.
Of course, since everything is done via the trust of Buss children, it'd be more like the collective 6 fill the roll of Cuban or whoever, but Jim would still get the final say in case of a 3/3 split. |
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Lakers2015
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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2030.
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fontana3d
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
None. Jeanie is too emotional and Jim is too dumb.
I'd rather a 3rd party come in and run the show. Who? No idea. We'll see candidates when/if the time comes.
But that's not how Jerry wanted it. But hey, at the end of the day, it's what is best for this organization. It would have been ideal for Jim/Jeanie to work well together and to be successful POST Jerry Buss. |
If Jeanie were too emotional Jim would've been gone already, Phil in his place.
She's either this machiavellian some on this forum imagines she is, or she's emotional(or she's neither). I haven't seen her make any emotional decisions in her power position. In fact I haven't seen her make any decisions at all. Jim and Mitch have been making all the decisions, and they're the ones that need to be expunged for this franchise to be successful moving forward. |
If you say Phil one more time then this board needs to be expunged of you. |
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Daphanabe
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Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2768
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| USCandLakers wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
None. Jeanie is too emotional and Jim is too dumb.
I'd rather a 3rd party come in and run the show. Who? No idea. We'll see candidates when/if the time comes.
But that's not how Jerry wanted it. But hey, at the end of the day, it's what is best for this organization. It would have been ideal for Jim/Jeanie to work well together and to be successful POST Jerry Buss. |
If Jeanie were too emotional Jim would've been gone already, Phil in his place.
She's either this machiavellian some on this forum imagines she is, or she's emotional(or she's neither). I haven't seen her make any emotional decisions in her power position. In fact I haven't seen her make any decisions at all. Jim and Mitch have been making all the decisions, and they're the ones that need to be expunged for this franchise to be successful moving forward. |
Stay billboards? |
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Baron Von Humongous
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Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
None. Jeanie is too emotional and Jim is too dumb.
I'd rather a 3rd party come in and run the show. Who? No idea. We'll see candidates when/if the time comes.
But that's not how Jerry wanted it. But hey, at the end of the day, it's what is best for this organization. It would have been ideal for Jim/Jeanie to work well together and to be successful POST Jerry Buss. |
It's like Nov. 8th all over again. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Title contenders? About 3 years, give or take a year. |
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chekmatex4
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Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Deathstroke wrote: | | tox wrote: | | laker4life wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
why do we have to replace Jim Buss with another Buss kid?
Jim Buss will still be an owner.
If the team does not reach the Western conference Finals, he should resign as he previously promised. |
There is always an owner that has final say. In the current iteration it's Jim. But even if Jim is gone, someone in the ownership (read: a Buss) has ultimate say. Which is VLF's point. |
Every owner is sports has the final say. That is not an excuse to continue having Jim Buss as the head of bball operations. We need to put into place a better basketball mind to run basketball operations and a new GM that is not on the downside of his career. Owners are always there in every sports franchise but the smart ones allow others more qualified to manage the team's personnel moves while only giving a veto if they strongly are against the move(s) trying to be made. |
Ok but you still haven't answered the question, say Jim steps down and they replace him with somebody from San Antonio or another uncontroversial choice. You still need someone with ultimate say if the new bball ops guy makes a controversial decision. Who is it? |
I really like Neil Olshey but he's with the Blazers now. Someone from the Spurs working under Buford is an obvious choice, possibly Brian Pauga. Jerry West has a knack to evaluate talent so maybe his son Ryan West or someone who he has worked with during his stint with the Warriors, Travis Schlenk. Colangelo's are already in Philly but you never know what might happen there.
Not a fan of Danny Ainge's style to take advantage of everyone in a trade and I heard some teams won't deal with him. If he's representing your team that might be a good thing. I'm also not a fan of Daryl Morey and his reliance on analytics. Analytics should be a consideration but not the lead driver. |
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laker4life
Star Player
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7320
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Daphanabe wrote: | | USCandLakers wrote: | | Krispy Kreme wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | chekmatex4 wrote: | | 3 years after Jim Buss resigns or is fired. |
So which Buss kid do you want to replace him? |
None. Jeanie is too emotional and Jim is too dumb.
I'd rather a 3rd party come in and run the show. Who? No idea. We'll see candidates when/if the time comes.
But that's not how Jerry wanted it. But hey, at the end of the day, it's what is best for this organization. It would have been ideal for Jim/Jeanie to work well together and to be successful POST Jerry Buss. |
If Jeanie were too emotional Jim would've been gone already, Phil in his place.
She's either this machiavellian some on this forum imagines she is, or she's emotional(or she's neither). I haven't seen her make any emotional decisions in her power position. In fact I haven't seen her make any decisions at all. Jim and Mitch have been making all the decisions, and they're the ones that need to be expunged for this franchise to be successful moving forward. |
Stay billboards? |
Other organizations had billboards from OKC, Cleveland, San Antonio, etc.
LA was simply doing what others were doing.
No biggie. |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| chekmatex4 wrote: | I really like Neil Olshey but he's with the Blazers now. Someone from the Spurs working under Buford is an obvious choice, possibly Brian Pauga. Jerry West has a knack to evaluate talent so maybe his son Ryan West or someone who he has worked with during his stint with the Warriors, Travis Schlenk. Colangelo's are already in Philly but you never know what might happen there.
Not a fan of Danny Ainge's style to take advantage of everyone in a trade and I heard some teams won't deal with him. If he's representing your team that might be a good thing. I'm also not a fan of Daryl Morey and his reliance on analytics. Analytics should be a consideration but not the lead driver. |
Here's the thing with Olshey (and I like him as well). People criticize Mitch for what? Coaching? Maybe before Luke. Drafting? Not anymore, unless you're delusional (aka a closet Okaforian). Free agency? Now we have criticism.
What did Olshey do in 2016 free agency? Mitch's strategy on steroids. Sure you can argue guys like Turner & Crabbe have more upside than Deng & Moz, but on the flip side, they're collectively worse than the two Laker free agents. Turner will never be a good contract (he's been overrated ever since he was "rejuvenated" in Boston), and while Crabbe may be a good 3&D guy, he likely will never outperform his contract. And unlike Mitch, he didn't leave any future flexibility, whereas the Lakers can create maxes down the line.
I do see an argument that the Lakers need someone more charismatic to sell their basketball vision... but ideally that's what Luke grows into. |
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LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16156
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | And unlike Mitch, he didn't leave any future flexibility, whereas the Lakers can create maxes down the line. |
The Blazers also have McCollum (4 yrs $106 mil) and Lillard (5 yrs max) on their roster.
Remember, we tried to give our flexibility away to Melo. |
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