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wolfpaclaker
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 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:14 am Post subject: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I don't know if you can say you have patience AND write this post. Ingram has played 40 games? Randle n Russell 1.5 yrs? How can we be "stuck" already?
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I don't know if you can say you have patience AND write this post. Ingram has played 40 games? Randle n Russel 1.5 yrs? How can we be "stuck" already? |
Not stuck. What I'm saying is the road back to being a good team is much much harder than it is made out to be. We all point out to great young picks and their potential, and last year we all blamed Byron. Byron was a poor coach. Luke is much better. However, we also need to see the difference in striking gold in the draft vs drafting good players in the making. That's what I'm saying. I think the teams that really benefit from the draft and being in the lottery 3+ years in a row are the ones that either draft a superstar/franchise player who turns that franchise around pretty fast. Or they trade their picks for someone of that caliber. I think we need those things to happen for us to really get back in there. If we stand pat, I can't see us making the playoffs next season either to be honest. I expect Russ and Randle to keep improving and Ingram to improve a lot. But we may need more.
What I'm saying is that Clippers were much like us until they made that deal for Paul. They traded Eric Gordon at the time a young draft pick and lots of other young assets for CP3. That changed their franchise. Rockets traded for Harden, using their draft pick and some other assets. Essentially I think we may need to make a move like that to get back, because relying on the current core to develop enough to be a top 5-6 team in the West and a playoff lock would be a tall order. And one that may not happen any time soon. |
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lewis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Posts: 58336
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
^
Gets it.
And the debate I'm trying to get going here is that should the Lakers just wait on Russ, Randle, Ingram etc. or try to get in on the Jimmy Butler or whomever (Sometimes players are available that we don't even know about) sweeptakes using some of our young draft picks. I'm certainly not saying we are doomed if we stand pat, but it could be a few years more at earliest and we'd still need to rely on some good free agent signings (which has not been the strong point for us). |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I don't know if you can say you have patience AND write this post. Ingram has played 40 games? Randle n Russel 1.5 yrs? How can we be "stuck" already? |
Not stuck. What I'm saying is the road back to being a good team is much much harder than it is made out to be. We all point out to great young picks and their potential, and last year we all blamed Byron. Byron was a poor coach. Luke is much better. However, we also need to see the difference in striking gold in the draft vs drafting good players in the making. That's what I'm saying. I think the teams that really benefit from the draft and being in the lottery 3+ years in a row are the ones that either draft a superstar/franchise player who turns that franchise around pretty fast. Or they trade their picks for someone of that caliber. I think we need those things to happen for us to really get back in there. If we stand pat, I can't see us making the playoffs next season either to be honest. I expect Russ and Randle to keep improving and Ingram to improve a lot. But we may need more.
What I'm saying is that Clippers were much like us until they made that deal for Paul. They traded Eric Gordon at the time a young draft pick and lots of other young assets for CP3. That changed their franchise. Rockets traded for Harden, using their draft pick and some other assets. Essentially I think we may need to make a move like that to get back, because relying on the current core to develop enough to be a top 5-6 team in the West and a playoff lock would be a tall order. And one that may not happen any time soon. |
You're making it sound like you woke up today w/ this new revelation? Did you not realize this when the rebuild first started?
You're now just realizing this today? |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
^
Gets it.
And the debate I'm trying to get going here is that should the Lakers just wait on Russ, Randle, Ingram etc. or try to get in on the Jimmy Butler or whomever (Sometimes players are available that we don't even know about) sweeptakes using some of our young draft picks. I'm certainly not saying we are doomed if we stand pat, but it could be a few years more at earliest and awe'd still need to rely on some good free agent signings (which has not been the strong point for us). |
If you're asking this question right now, then that is the opposite of "patience."
You only gave Russ, Randle 1.5 yrs and Ingram 40 games. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You?
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I don't know if you can say you have patience AND write this post. Ingram has played 40 games? Randle n Russel 1.5 yrs? How can we be "stuck" already? |
Not stuck. What I'm saying is the road back to being a good team is much much harder than it is made out to be. We all point out to great young picks and their potential, and last year we all blamed Byron. Byron was a poor coach. Luke is much better. However, we also need to see the difference in striking gold in the draft vs drafting good players in the making. That's what I'm saying. I think the teams that really benefit from the draft and being in the lottery 3+ years in a row are the ones that either draft a superstar/franchise player who turns that franchise around pretty fast. Or they trade their picks for someone of that caliber. I think we need those things to happen for us to really get back in there. If we stand pat, I can't see us making the playoffs next season either to be honest. I expect Russ and Randle to keep improving and Ingram to improve a lot. But we may need more.
What I'm saying is that Clippers were much like us until they made that deal for Paul. They traded Eric Gordon at the time a young draft pick and lots of other young assets for CP3. That changed their franchise. Rockets traded for Harden, using their draft pick and some other assets. Essentially I think we may need to make a move like that to get back, because relying on the current core to develop enough to be a top 5-6 team in the West and a playoff lock would be a tall order. And one that may not happen any time soon. |
You're making it sound like you woke up today w/ this new revelation? Did you not realize this when the rebuild first started?
You're now just realizing this today? |
I agree with Wolf, I think his thread was solely made to remind us just how hard it is to get back to winning and even harder when you don't have a proven star on the team. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I don't know if you can say you have patience AND write this post. Ingram has played 40 games? Randle n Russel 1.5 yrs? How can we be "stuck" already? |
Not stuck. What I'm saying is the road back to being a good team is much much harder than it is made out to be. We all point out to great young picks and their potential, and last year we all blamed Byron. Byron was a poor coach. Luke is much better. However, we also need to see the difference in striking gold in the draft vs drafting good players in the making. That's what I'm saying. I think the teams that really benefit from the draft and being in the lottery 3+ years in a row are the ones that either draft a superstar/franchise player who turns that franchise around pretty fast. Or they trade their picks for someone of that caliber. I think we need those things to happen for us to really get back in there. If we stand pat, I can't see us making the playoffs next season either to be honest. I expect Russ and Randle to keep improving and Ingram to improve a lot. But we may need more.
What I'm saying is that Clippers were much like us until they made that deal for Paul. They traded Eric Gordon at the time a young draft pick and lots of other young assets for CP3. That changed their franchise. Rockets traded for Harden, using their draft pick and some other assets. Essentially I think we may need to make a move like that to get back, because relying on the current core to develop enough to be a top 5-6 team in the West and a playoff lock would be a tall order. And one that may not happen any time soon. |
You're making it sound like you woke up today w/ this new revelation? Did you not realize this when the rebuild first started?
You're now just realizing this today? |
I agree with Wolf, I think his thread was solely made to remind us just how hard it is to get back to winning and even harder when you don't have a proven star on the team. |
The only ones that needed reminding are the ones w/ unrealistic expectations... |
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adkindo
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Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Losing is losing, its not like generational poverty where the forces of society make it difficult to escape. Each season there is a new start, and the amount of games that you win will depend on the talent, experience, coaching and effort displayed on the court each night. Right now we have an inexperienced group of players and coaching staff, moderate talent, and provide inconsistent effort. It has very little to do with previous years except the NBA is a carryover league, and we simply did not have the experienced coaching and talent on the roster to be competitive in the league because many teams simply had more on the board when the season started.
There is no real secret, we need time and more talent. I recall a stat I saw after about a quarter of the season had passed, and it compared teams that returned their same coach and at least 4 starters with all other teams.....the winning % difference was significant. There are only two shortcuts, obtain top level talent in FA or trade market, or draft a generational player such as Shaq or Lebron. Beyond that, put your seatbelt on and wear a helmet, because the climb up the mountain is not short and will be bumpy. |
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lewis
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Posts: 1165
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You? |
I did not thought it would be easy or that we had any other choice. I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar and I hate the lack of effort they sometimes show. If the effort would be consistent and we would lose because the shots are not falling or because we are outplayed by opposition because they are more talented, I would be ok. The fact that we lose on effort in a lot of games, it's what makes me think that all that losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the expectation by anyone was that we would get a pick and contend quickly.
I think the expectation many, many people had, was that we would have the type of season that clearly presents a building block, foundational type season. One where, when it is over, pretty much everyone knows they'll be a playoff team next year. One where, gel in to a more cohesive team down the course of the season.
It certainly looked that way early in the season when we were 10-10. No one was really complaining then. But we've gone 5-20 since then, and 5-20 doesn't look like a young team poised to take the next step, they look like they're doing what bad teams do.
I think it's hard for people to truly assess this team. Are we that 10-10 team on the rise? Or that 5-20 team with a ceiling of mediocrity? I think that's why the OP asked the question he asked.
But that's the bottom line and the risk you take when you go young. You will have to bear seasons where you can't really tell if a guy is just young, or bad. A lot of people say "this is what rebuilding looks like" but it is also what bad teams look like. I'm afraid we need to just bite the bullet and give this time to play out. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You? |
I did not thought it would be easy or that we had any other choice. I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar and I hate the lack of effort they sometimes show. If the effort would be consistent and we would lose because the shots are not falling or because we are outplayed by opposition because they are more talented, I would be ok. The fact that we lose on effort in a lot of games, it's what makes me think that all that losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
So you did expect more....
You expected to see more consistent effort from 19-21 year olds after 1.5 years in the league. |
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lewis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: |
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One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
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lewis
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You? |
I did not thought it would be easy or that we had any other choice. I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar and I hate the lack of effort they sometimes show. If the effort would be consistent and we would lose because the shots are not falling or because we are outplayed by opposition because they are more talented, I would be ok. The fact that we lose on effort in a lot of games, it's what makes me think that all that losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
So you did expect more....
You expected to see more consistent effort from 19-21 year olds after 1.5 years in the league. |
Of course, I am an optimist |
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Vesper
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Posts: 387
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
We are the total opposite of the UTah Jazz |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | I don't think the expectation by anyone was that we would get a pick and contend quickly.
I think the expectation many, many people had, was that we would have the type of season that clearly presents a building block, foundational type season. One where, when it is over, pretty much everyone knows they'll be a playoff team next year. One where, gel in to a more cohesive team down the course of the season.
It certainly looked that way early in the season when we were 10-10. No one was really complaining then. But we've gone 5-20 since then, and 5-20 doesn't look like a young team poised to take the next step, they look like they're doing what bad teams do.
I think it's hard for people to truly assess this team. Are we that 10-10 team on the rise? Or that 5-20 team with a ceiling of mediocrity? I think that's why the OP asked the question he asked.
But that's the bottom line and the risk you take when you go young. You will have to bear seasons where you can't really tell if a guy is just young, or bad. A lot of people say "this is what rebuilding looks like" but it is also what bad teams look like. I'm afraid we need to just bite the bullet and give this time to play out. |
Exactly. So why even ask the question. There are no concrete answers when you're dealing w/ 19-21 yr old prospects.
And this is something you know going in already. It's called a lottery for a reason, it really is a crap shoot. |
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Vesper
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Our team doesn't have good synergy imo. A bunch of random pieces given to Luke, so he can find a way to get them playing the vision he wants.
This summer, I really hope they make the correct decisions on our roster moving forward. |
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LongBeachPoly
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Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You? |
I did not thought it would be easy or that we had any other choice. I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar and I hate the lack of effort they sometimes show. If the effort would be consistent and we would lose because the shots are not falling or because we are outplayed by opposition because they are more talented, I would be ok. The fact that we lose on effort in a lot of games, it's what makes me think that all that losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
So you did expect more....
You expected to see more consistent effort from 19-21 year olds after 1.5 years in the league. |
Of course, I am an optimist |
That's not the definition of an optimist. An optimist would look at the future w/ optimism.
You're worried that
| Quote: | | losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
| Quote: | | I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar |
You're actually more glass half empty. |
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lewis
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2013
Posts: 1165
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You? |
I did not thought it would be easy or that we had any other choice. I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar and I hate the lack of effort they sometimes show. If the effort would be consistent and we would lose because the shots are not falling or because we are outplayed by opposition because they are more talented, I would be ok. The fact that we lose on effort in a lot of games, it's what makes me think that all that losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
So you did expect more....
You expected to see more consistent effort from 19-21 year olds after 1.5 years in the league. |
Of course, I am an optimist |
That's not the definition of an optimist. An optimist would look at the future w/ optimism.
You're worried that
| Quote: | | losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
| Quote: | | I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar |
You're actually more glass half empty. |
So expecting more is what a pessimist does..got it....  |
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LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You? |
I did not thought it would be easy or that we had any other choice. I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar and I hate the lack of effort they sometimes show. If the effort would be consistent and we would lose because the shots are not falling or because we are outplayed by opposition because they are more talented, I would be ok. The fact that we lose on effort in a lot of games, it's what makes me think that all that losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
So you did expect more....
You expected to see more consistent effort from 19-21 year olds after 1.5 years in the league. |
Of course, I am an optimist |
That's not the definition of an optimist. An optimist would look at the future w/ optimism.
You're worried that
| Quote: | | losing in the past years has some negative effect in the future. |
| Quote: | | I think we have a nice core drafted, but I don't think we got a superstar |
You're actually more glass half empty. |
So expecting more is what a pessimist does..got it.... |
The most negative people in the world have high expectations of others. Doesn't make them an optimist.
Byron Scott expected alot out of Russell. He was always on his case. Anyone classify Byron Scott as an optimist?
Pessimists see the world as glass half empty, why? Because whatever they have, they expected more...
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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TheBlackMamba
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I don't know if you can say you have patience AND write this post. Ingram has played 40 games? Randle n Russel 1.5 yrs? How can we be "stuck" already? |
Not stuck. What I'm saying is the road back to being a good team is much much harder than it is made out to be. We all point out to great young picks and their potential, and last year we all blamed Byron. Byron was a poor coach. Luke is much better. However, we also need to see the difference in striking gold in the draft vs drafting good players in the making. That's what I'm saying. I think the teams that really benefit from the draft and being in the lottery 3+ years in a row are the ones that either draft a superstar/franchise player who turns that franchise around pretty fast. Or they trade their picks for someone of that caliber. I think we need those things to happen for us to really get back in there. If we stand pat, I can't see us making the playoffs next season either to be honest. I expect Russ and Randle to keep improving and Ingram to improve a lot. But we may need more.
What I'm saying is that Clippers were much like us until they made that deal for Paul. They traded Eric Gordon at the time a young draft pick and lots of other young assets for CP3. That changed their franchise. Rockets traded for Harden, using their draft pick and some other assets. Essentially I think we may need to make a move like that to get back, because relying on the current core to develop enough to be a top 5-6 team in the West and a playoff lock would be a tall order. And one that may not happen any time soon. |
You're making it sound like you woke up today w/ this new revelation? Did you not realize this when the rebuild first started?
You're now just realizing this today? |
I think the message is aimed at fans that are getting upset with the apparent lack of tangible progress that we've made in our rebuild. This didn't just start yesterday - we've been near the bottom of the league for 3.5 seasons now. One would understandably expect some sort of jump in the wins column by now, and I'm not saying we haven't made ANY progress, because this season has most definitely been a step in the right direction. But, a 15-30 record (and 5-20 in the last 25 games) isn't going to earn the FO any pats on the back just yet, and I think wolf is just saying that these are the small steps that a typical rebuilding team can expect to take every year until it either hits on a franchise-defining player in the draft (very rare) or trades its assets for an already established one (more doable, but still extremely tough to pull off).
What makes this rebuild even more painful is that we're a franchise that's used to competing for and winning championships. This isn't a perennial loser like the T-Wolves that can afford to preach patience with its fan base. It's likely going to be four straight seasons without making the playoffs, which is historic for us. That's kind of a double-edged sword, though, in that we know and can expect the FO to always swing for the fences to get us back to contention (and at times make stupid promises and public timelines to do so), but it also increases the chances of making a bad move out of haste that could set us back years.
Hindsight is a (bleep), but the Nash trade was exactly that kind of setback. Going back, I would still make that move 10 out of 10 times - it's just our horrible luck that the worst case scenario unfolded. But wouldn't everyone be much more upbeat around here if we knew for sure that we would be keeping our 1st round pick this year? I know I'd be feeling damn well about our rebuild right now if that was the case. To make matters worse and compound that mistake, the FO tried to cobble together middling teams around post-prime and torn achilles Kobe, culminating in Byron and the KFT. Now that's something we KNOW set us back, because we're currently watching the effects of that this season. Fans are putting 2nd and 3rd year expectations on our young players who aren't really ready for that yet because of how much of a waste last year was in their development. At this point, I don't think we can say with any reasonable certainty what kind of talent we have on hand. Is that future franchise player on our roster? It's not apparent or looking likely right now, but the jury's still out.
Ultimately, it now feels like we're in the 1st or 2nd year of a rebuild that's actually in Year 4. But that makes it even more crucial to not make another move focused on the short term that will cripple us in the long run. We've stuck it out this long, and should at least see this rebuild through for another season and give our players a chance to develop a lot more before assessing whether a major move needs to be made. Obviously, that excludes the possibility of a fairy tale deal coming our way like Pau did, but I'm going to assume that no GM in their right mind is going to be doing the Lakers any favors in the near future. If it takes two seasons to get back to the playoffs, then so be it. I just fear that the FO doesn't see it the same way, especially Jim, which could either result in us trading for the wrong guy again or trading the wrong guy (much worse)... |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| lewis wrote: | One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
It really took Utah longer than that. I think in 2013-14hayward had already been on the team for two or three years. And they also had some other pieces in place for a couple of years. I'd say it took them 5 years to get to this point, not three |
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LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16138
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | lewis wrote: | One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
It really took Utah longer than that. I think in 2013-14hayward had already been on the team for two or three years. And they also had some other pieces in place for a couple of years. I'd say it took them 5 years to get to this point, not three |
Didn't their rebuild start w/ the DWill trade? |
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