|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
kikanga
Retired Number
Joined: 15 Sep 2012
Posts: 29286
Location: La La Land
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | lewis wrote: | One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
It really took Utah longer than that. I think in 2013-14hayward had already been on the team for two or three years. And they also had some other pieces in place for a couple of years. I'd say it took them 5 years to get to this point, not three |
Didn't their rebuild start w/ the DWill trade? |
Do you think only posting open ended questions adds anything to this board? Do you think it's appropriate to never argue a point and never really understand the post you're questioning either?
_________________
"Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better” |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16143
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kikanga wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | lewis wrote: | One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
It really took Utah longer than that. I think in 2013-14hayward had already been on the team for two or three years. And they also had some other pieces in place for a couple of years. I'd say it took them 5 years to get to this point, not three |
Didn't their rebuild start w/ the DWill trade? |
Do you think only posting open ended questions adds anything to this board? Do you think it's appropriate to never argue a point and never really understand the post you're questioning either? |
Aren't yes/no questions classified as closed ended questions? I might be wrong though.
Are you getting tangential and off topic? We should stay on topic. But, you can PM me if you want to get off topic...
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Good post wolf. This was the discussion we were having during the tanking, that losing begets losing, and that it is really hard to get out of. It is actually really hard to get out of each tier (bottom of lottery, top of lottery, bottom playoff team, mid playoff team), and there are few shortcuts to do it, but plenty of shortcuts to not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nash
Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
It's never an easy road rebuilding through the draft. OKC was fortunate enough to draft 3 HOF level players and still didn't win it all. In our case we are going to be luck if one of our players turn into this kind of player. I have hope, but at this point it is everything I have. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | lewis wrote: | One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
It really took Utah longer than that. I think in 2013-14hayward had already been on the team for two or three years. And they also had some other pieces in place for a couple of years. I'd say it took them 5 years to get to this point, not three |
Didn't their rebuild start w/ the DWill trade? |
Do you think only posting open ended questions adds anything to this board? Do you think it's appropriate to never argue a point and never really understand the post you're questioning either? |
Aren't yes/no questions classified as closed ended questions? I might be wrong though.
Are you getting tangential and off topic? We should stay on topic. But, you can PM me if you want to get off topic... |
Perhaps you need my help? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out |
.
Stuck was losing seasons and not having the resources (draft picks) to get out of them because of the Steve Nash trade.
Now it's just year 2 of development time.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
adkindo
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | Good post wolf. This was the discussion we were having during the tanking, that losing begets losing, and that it is really hard to get out of. It is actually really hard to get out of each tier (bottom of lottery, top of lottery, bottom playoff team, mid playoff team), and there are few shortcuts to do it, but plenty of shortcuts to not. |
I agree there is a correlation, but do not agree on the causation. Tanking often requires a depletion of talent and experience, and you cannot usually get that back quickly, which causes continued losing...the lack or talent and experience, not the losing itself. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheBlackMamba
Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 9057
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out |
.
Stuck was losing seasons and not having the resources (draft picks) to get out of them because of the Steve Nash trade.
Now it's just year 2 of development time. |
Exactly. I'd even argue that the first THREE years shouldn't even be classified as part of the rebuild. That was hell, and we were lucky that injuries and subpar coaching crippled our mediocre rosters and allowed us to draft Jules and DLo. Last year, of course, was an abomination - thankfully one that led us to Ingram.
So yes, although we started drafting high in 2014 (which is why I don't think the Nash trade, TO DATE, has hamstrung us as much as advertised since we only gave up a low pick in 2013 so far, I believe) the season-ending injury to Jules and Byron/KFT held us back til this year. Makes the whole process feel more painful and draining than it actually should have been. But I'd much rather be "stuck" in this phase than the one we just left... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well said Wolf. That is why I detest tanking, losing begets losing. And some here want to lose some more. And those same posters are complaining that we are losing. Julius Randle has won 50 games in two and a half seasons. In one and a half seasons DLO has won 29 games. What this team hasn't had in the last four seasons is any sense of continuity. Each season, new players, maybe a new coach. That is why the decision to set down some roots with Deng and Mozgov, and long term that was a good decision. Sure I would have preferred we sign two stars long term, but that wasn't in the cards. Because of the losing. Some live with the fantasy that stars will still come, but that is highly unlikely. Because of the losing. We just need to tough it out and allow these young players to develop, because that is our future. I too am patient, I have been a fan for over 40 years, I am going nowhere.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Inspector Gadget
Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46641
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I still hope this team finds a way to win 30 games, that would give us more hope with the Young core rather then settling for aiming for the absolute worst record for a chance at a pick cause these guys need to taste some winning to get to the next level and losing games won't make them any better next year unless we acquire or sign a star player. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out |
.
Stuck was losing seasons and not having the resources (draft picks) to get out of them because of the Steve Nash trade.
Now it's just year 2 of development time. |
And I love Kobe, but we were stuck when we had his massive contract on the books. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Good post wolf. This was the discussion we were having during the tanking, that losing begets losing, and that it is really hard to get out of. It is actually really hard to get out of each tier (bottom of lottery, top of lottery, bottom playoff team, mid playoff team), and there are few shortcuts to do it, but plenty of shortcuts to not. |
I agree there is a correlation, but do not agree on the causation. Tanking often requires a depletion of talent and experience, and you cannot usually get that back quickly, which causes continued losing...the lack or talent and experience, not the losing itself. |
Losing is also a habit, and a mindset. it is much easier to teach a young player to win on a winning team than on a losing team. Winning teams are teams that not only have talent and good coaching/schemes, but they have continuity and the habits of winning. Losing teams have no continuity. And the habits are hard to teach when the key motivator to repeat them (winning) is hard to come by. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | lewis wrote: | One team that did it slowly (and a path similar to what we are expected to follow), but eventually managed to do it, is Utah:
Season Position #Wins
2013–14 15th 25
2014–15 11th 38
2015–16 9th 40
this year they will be 5th or 6th. It took them 3 years from the moment they started to go up. If we follow similar rate we could be in the playoffs in 2019. |
It really took Utah longer than that. I think in 2013-14hayward had already been on the team for two or three years. And they also had some other pieces in place for a couple of years. I'd say it took them 5 years to get to this point, not three |
Didn't their rebuild start w/ the DWill trade? |
"Rebuilds" usually aren't clear events with tidy starting points from scratch. I'd say different people could have a 3 to 4 year range of when they consider the Utah started. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144462
Location: The Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
If a player accepts losing it is tough to change that. I am not sure our young players are there, though. Watch immediately after the game last night, you could see Randle was pissed. What he needs to learn is to channel that into the next game and do what he can to win it. That is where I had hoped Deng might help the young players. He was on some losing teams and on some really good teams, he understands what it takes to make that difference. That is where I miss Bass, he was a great leader for Randle last season. Even Hibbert was great for the young players.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bum2
Starting Rotation
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 809
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is just the harsh reality of development. Its romantic in the off season but the day to day grind is brutal. With no obvious signs of improvement in the moment.
But 2-3 years from now, we'll have a clearly picture. Patience is needed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out |
.
Stuck was losing seasons and not having the resources (draft picks) to get out of them because of the Steve Nash trade.
Now it's just year 2 of development time. |
And I love Kobe, but we were stuck when we had his massive contract on the books. |
Yup. I understood the Lakers had to make a business decision.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mhan00
Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32059
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | lewis wrote: | | I think the point is that is not as easy going back to playoff contention as people thought, which is true. It's not like pure math, if I add that talented pick the team will be better so I must make the playoff next season. Losing has some bad implications that seems to stick for a few seasons. |
I don't know of one realistic person who thought it was going to be easy? You? |
Jim Buss apparently did when he said we'd be WCF or better this season or the next. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Krispy Kreme
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 12252
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Not easy to rise back up after tanking. |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Many of us - myself included - were for tanking. We have reaped the benefits. We have gotten quality lottery picks like Russ, Randle, Ingram. We have some young talent. However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out.
We certainly could benefit with wins when Russ/Randle hit their primes in 2 years. Ingram too. However the downside of being lottery every year and not landing a Lebron, Durant, Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis etc. type of player is what we're going through. We are not the only team but that's how it is.
For all the 6-7 teams that consistently stay in the lottery up high like we were the last few years, only one really strikes gold. Even as good as the Wolves talent is, they've made so many changes and yet still stuck there.
It's a tough hill to climb. I have patience, but I also think this is the downside of being a perennial lottery team. You've got to strike gold with one of your picks, as in the guy being a quick superstar/franchise player. For every team that lands that kind of player, there's teams like us who are filled with players that are good but not great enough to make a change in the franchise's direction.
I'm still hoping Mitch has one last magic wand move. There are some all-stars in their primes on the move. A move like that could speed up the goal of being a playoff team. Right now I feel we are still 2 years away from realistically making the playoffs (meaning I see us as a lottery team next year as well). A trade that can speed that up, would really help. I'm sure Mitch is looking. |
I don't know if you can say you have patience AND write this post. Ingram has played 40 games? Randle n Russel 1.5 yrs? How can we be "stuck" already? |
Not stuck. What I'm saying is the road back to being a good team is much much harder than it is made out to be. We all point out to great young picks and their potential, and last year we all blamed Byron. Byron was a poor coach. Luke is much better. However, we also need to see the difference in striking gold in the draft vs drafting good players in the making. That's what I'm saying. I think the teams that really benefit from the draft and being in the lottery 3+ years in a row are the ones that either draft a superstar/franchise player who turns that franchise around pretty fast. Or they trade their picks for someone of that caliber. I think we need those things to happen for us to really get back in there. If we stand pat, I can't see us making the playoffs next season either to be honest. I expect Russ and Randle to keep improving and Ingram to improve a lot. But we may need more.
What I'm saying is that Clippers were much like us until they made that deal for Paul. They traded Eric Gordon at the time a young draft pick and lots of other young assets for CP3. That changed their franchise. Rockets traded for Harden, using their draft pick and some other assets. Essentially I think we may need to make a move like that to get back, because relying on the current core to develop enough to be a top 5-6 team in the West and a playoff lock would be a tall order. And one that may not happen any time soon. |
of course we need more. a lot of homers here, and let me stress the word HOMERS think randle/ingram/russell will be enough to go deep in the playoffs without a big signing. not happening. we have the ingredients for a run, but we need 1 or 2 more players to help put it all together.
a CP3, Harden, westbrook type player that changes the complexion of the team. and if we do make the playoffs this year, there will be numerous threads and posts about how we'll give the warriors or spurs a competitive 1st round series, and that we might even upset them or take them to a game 6 or 7. False. We need a big time player. Until then, we're like the clippers used to be (During the darius miles, Q-Rich days). Fun to watch, but nothing to show for it.
_________________
Dominating every day. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dcarter4kobe
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 17674
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Omar Little wrote: | | Good post wolf. This was the discussion we were having during the tanking, that losing begets losing, and that it is really hard to get out of. It is actually really hard to get out of each tier (bottom of lottery, top of lottery, bottom playoff team, mid playoff team), and there are few shortcuts to do it, but plenty of shortcuts to not. |
The 10-10 start gave a lot of us hope we could skip a couple phases in the rebuild. From bottom feeder to a bottom playoff contender in one season.
With the right parts and development, I think that can be done next season.
_________________
"He's a Zen master, so he can speak to you, and he doesn't need a microphone; you can hear him in your head, 'Ron, don't shoot, don't shoot.' Whatever, pow, three. I love the Zen, though." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Truck Turner
Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2011
Posts: 3937
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No matter how you slice it this team has exceeded expectations, which is why I don't understand why some people are freaking out. Before the season most people picked the Lakers to be dead last in the league (which was frankly insulting given how terrible the 76ers have been).
As it is now, the team started off really hot and people got a better idea of how talented the Lakers core actually is and how much potential they have. They hit a rough patch due to injuries and a tough schedule, and now they're playing up and down like most young teams do.
People are so focused on the struggles that were expected that they're glossing over the good we've seen this season.
What's funny is the only player on the Lakers that hasn't lived up to the (unfair) expectations placed on him before the season is Ingram but people are actually being patient with him (unlike D'Lo and Randle). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
parsons777
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Posts: 3574
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Time to championship, Example GSW:
2014-15 67 15 Champs Big 3, 14 seasons
2013-14 51 31
2012-13 47 35 Iggy trade 1st, 2014/2017
2011-12 23 43 Green, 35th
2010-11 36 46 Klay, 11th
2009-10 26 56
2008-09 29 53 Curry, 7th
At the end of 2014-15, GSW's Big 3 (Curry, Klay and Green) had 14 Seasons under their belts
Lakers trajectory:
2019-20 Champs? JR, 5 Dlo, 5 Ingram, 4
2018-19 JR, 4 Dlo, 4 Ingram, 3
2017-18 JR, 3 Dlo, 3 Ingram, 2
2016-17 JR, 2 Dlo, 2 Ingram, 1
2015-16 Ingram, 2nd
2014-15 Dlo, 2nd
2013-14 JR, 7th
We got some time to wait.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Omar Little
Moderator
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dcarter4kobe wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Good post wolf. This was the discussion we were having during the tanking, that losing begets losing, and that it is really hard to get out of. It is actually really hard to get out of each tier (bottom of lottery, top of lottery, bottom playoff team, mid playoff team), and there are few shortcuts to do it, but plenty of shortcuts to not. |
The 10-10 start gave a lot of us hope we could skip a couple phases in the rebuild. From bottom feeder to a bottom playoff contender in one season.
With the right parts and development, I think that can be done next season. |
Sure, and if not for a rash of injuries coupled with that disaster of a schedule (I think we could withstand either, not both), I think we probably are sitting right at the 8th/9th slot. I think there was going to be a cool off after the start, but I think it just imploded, and in many ways Luke is having to restart without the belief and enthusiasm. The team has learned to doubt itself a bit, but I feel he will get them back on track. Probably not into the playoffs, but that was always gravy. It is about development, and they are doing very well in that regard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58336
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I give Omar/24 credit in that I distinctly recall him arguing against tanking repeatedly. It's one thing to do it a year, but it's tough to get back up after you've established that losing year after year.
What I'm hoping for is either one of Russ/Randle/Ingram develop into a superstar or we can trade for one. Without a superstar it's real tough to make the playoffs year after year with a young team such as ours. We are simply lacking that consistent engine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
55
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 12092
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I give Omar/24 credit in that I distinctly recall him arguing against tanking repeatedly. It's one thing to do it a year, but it's tough to get back up after you've established that losing year after year.
What I'm hoping for is either one of Russ/Randle/Ingram develop into a superstar or we can trade for one. Without a superstar it's real tough to make the playoffs year after year with a young team such as ours. We are simply lacking that consistent engine. |
The being-okay-with-losing mentality is a big part of the blame for losing big leads and not being able to close out games. They lack a pressured situation of win or die mentality. I was hoping Deng & Mozgov would help with that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
governator
Retired Number
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25086
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | However it seems we are sort of stuck now unable to make that push out |
.
Stuck was losing seasons and not having the resources (draft picks) to get out of them because of the Steve Nash trade.
Now it's just year 2 of development time. |
And I love Kobe, but we were stuck when we had his massive contract on the books. |
Yup. I understood the Lakers had to make a business decision. |
I thought it was a masterful stealth tanking. Still put on a show while not winning |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
