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venturalakersfan
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 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience.
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rogers49
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: We refuse to feed tank and 2017 draft threads Club |
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| nash wrote: | Stop the bleeding, enough is enough.
We shouldn't support the losing culture going forward. |
I completely agree with. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience. |
Especially if the package is for something like Noel or Oak, and possible 5th/6th pick in this year's draft. Ugh.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience. |
few seem to support me when I was screaming this about Anthony Brown....and he only had one season. It never was about AB, it was always about you do not give up on the 32nd pick after a single season, eat a million dollars to sign the worst player in the league. |
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rogers49
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Vesper wrote: | I'm sure Mitch is weighing in on our draft picks more than winning a few more games.
Losing 2 first round picks vs winning a few games should be a very easy decision for the front office |
Just for starters, is not 2 first round picks, but only one.
Because if we keep 2017, we keep 2019 too, but anyway we lose 2018.
If we lose 2017 and 2019, on the contrary, we keep 2018
difference=1 |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience. |
few seem to support me when I was screaming this about Anthony Brown....and he only had one season. It never was about AB, it was always about you do not give up on the 32nd pick after a single season, eat a million dollars to sign the worst player in the league. |
AB didn't show the progress, admittedly, especially for a physically mature SF out of Stanford.
I still want him to work out. He had a chance with the Pelicans. Short stint.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience. |
few seem to support me when I was screaming this about Anthony Brown....and he only had one season. It never was about AB, it was always about you do not give up on the 32nd pick after a single season, eat a million dollars to sign the worst player in the league. |
AB didn't show the progress, admittedly, especially for a physically mature SF out of Stanford.
I still want him to work out. He had a chance with the Pelicans. Short stint. |
I disagree, it was an ignorant move, and displayed the inexperience of Luke as a coach, and the general lack of forward thinking of the organization. |
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dao
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Vesper wrote: | DO YOU know what our record is now?
YOU know we are fighting for worst team in the west right?
You also know that we going to lose our 2017 and 2019 first round picks right?
You also know that Nick Young can opt out right?
THe players won't try to lose, but the FO can definitely try to. TOO much to lose and very little to gain |
Yes to all. Again, it's a lottery, not a guarantee. I've shown you how in the past 5 drafts, 4 teams in the bottom 3 fell out of the top 3 (and again, past performance has nothing to do with how things pan out this year).
This FO will not deliberately TANK, i.e. start Calderon/Huertas/MWP/Robinson/Black and completely bench/shut down youngsters.
If we lose organically, i.e., playing our young core a ton of minutes, then I happily accept whatever the outcome is. |
Of course we shouldn't bench the young players. However, trading guys like Lou and Young is starting to make more and more sense. It would give the young guys more PT, and at the same time increase the likelihood of us retaining our two first round picks. If we somehow lucked out and got the chance to add, say, Lonzo Ball to the young core? That would be an extremely favorable outcome.
It makes sense to not only trade Lou/Young, but also to start giving Zubac some of Mozgov's minutes. These moves give the young guys more floor time and also increase the likelihood of us keeping the pick. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience. |
few seem to support me when I was screaming this about Anthony Brown....and he only had one season. It never was about AB, it was always about you do not give up on the 32nd pick after a single season, eat a million dollars to sign the worst player in the league. |
AB didn't show the progress, admittedly, especially for a physically mature SF out of Stanford.
I still want him to work out. He had a chance with the Pelicans. Short stint. |
I disagree, it was an ignorant move, and displayed the inexperience of Luke as a coach, and the general lack of forward thinking of the organization. |
I disagree. It was obvious that Anthony Brown had a "shot panic" of sorts when facing NBA defenses. You could see it from almost every shot beyond 20'. He so rarely played with shots off the dribble, and that was one of his strengths out of Stanford as well. Just 1 or 2 dribbles on the side and pull up.
AB didn't carry over the confidence from Stanford to the NBA level. Sure, I'd rather have him than MWP, but Brown's development is VERY VERY similar to what happens when mature/older players declare for the NBA.
This is exactly why Malcolm Brogdon slipped to the 2nd round.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| dao wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Vesper wrote: | DO YOU know what our record is now?
YOU know we are fighting for worst team in the west right?
You also know that we going to lose our 2017 and 2019 first round picks right?
You also know that Nick Young can opt out right?
THe players won't try to lose, but the FO can definitely try to. TOO much to lose and very little to gain |
Yes to all. Again, it's a lottery, not a guarantee. I've shown you how in the past 5 drafts, 4 teams in the bottom 3 fell out of the top 3 (and again, past performance has nothing to do with how things pan out this year).
This FO will not deliberately TANK, i.e. start Calderon/Huertas/MWP/Robinson/Black and completely bench/shut down youngsters.
If we lose organically, i.e., playing our young core a ton of minutes, then I happily accept whatever the outcome is. |
Of course we shouldn't bench the young players. However, trading guys like Lou and Young is starting to make more and more sense. It would give the young guys more PT, and at the same time increase the likelihood of us retaining our two first round picks. If we somehow lucked out and got the chance to add, say, Lonzo Ball to the young core? That would be an extremely favorable outcome.
It makes sense to not only trade Lou/Young, but also to start giving Zubac some of Mozgov's minutes. These moves give the young guys more floor time and also increase the likelihood of us keeping the pick. |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience. |
few seem to support me when I was screaming this about Anthony Brown....and he only had one season. It never was about AB, it was always about you do not give up on the 32nd pick after a single season, eat a million dollars to sign the worst player in the league. |
AB didn't show the progress, admittedly, especially for a physically mature SF out of Stanford.
I still want him to work out. He had a chance with the Pelicans. Short stint. |
I disagree, it was an ignorant move, and displayed the inexperience of Luke as a coach, and the general lack of forward thinking of the organization. |
I disagree. It was obvious that Anthony Brown had a "shot panic" of sorts when facing NBA defenses. You could see it from almost every shot beyond 20'. He so rarely played with shots off the dribble, and that was one of his strengths out of Stanford as well. Just 1 or 2 dribbles on the side and pull up.
AB didn't carry over the confidence from Stanford to the NBA level. Sure, I'd rather have him than MWP, but Brown's development is VERY VERY similar to what happens when mature/older players declare for the NBA.
This is exactly why Malcolm Brogdon slipped to the 2nd round. |
then what are you arguing Mike? That AB was not developing as hoped? That is not the topic. You go on to say "I'd rather have him than MWP" which was the original statement that I made  There was possible tangible upside to keeping AB, where there was no tangible upside to cutting him to sign Metta. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, a part of me has kind of thought that the Lakers have been "relatively" tanking all along.
A lot of it as to do with Walton's robotic substitutions, which keeps the players healthy and balanced for PT, but also, it's a far easier way to build up an analysis with specified conditions and build up the data for future sets.
It's also why I think the Lakers have been playing a WIDE variety of sets compared to last year (I swear I think Byron ran like 6 sets).
So, the kids get PT, they develop, they're gathering data, they stay healthy, the team is happy because the PT is balanced, and there's a foundation of execution being built to the future.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
then what are you arguing Mike? That AB was not developing as hoped? That is not the topic. You go on to say "I'd rather have him than MWP" which was the original statement that I made There was possible tangible upside to keeping AB, where there was no tangible upside to cutting him to sign Metta |
.
I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but clearly, Luke sees more value with MWP than he did with AB. That's all that matters.
AB NOT really earning the position to make the team, is on him. Honestly, he didn't show the improvement like the other Laker drafted players, especially for a 2nd round pick. It's generally expected for 2nd rounders to fight harder for their place on the team or at least see changes to make the squad.
I don't think AB did that. Frankly, I'd rather have Ingram get AB's PT at SF and Lou, Clarkson, DLO, Young rotate at guard and get sorted.
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governator
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
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dao
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dao wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Vesper wrote: | DO YOU know what our record is now?
YOU know we are fighting for worst team in the west right?
You also know that we going to lose our 2017 and 2019 first round picks right?
You also know that Nick Young can opt out right?
THe players won't try to lose, but the FO can definitely try to. TOO much to lose and very little to gain |
Yes to all. Again, it's a lottery, not a guarantee. I've shown you how in the past 5 drafts, 4 teams in the bottom 3 fell out of the top 3 (and again, past performance has nothing to do with how things pan out this year).
This FO will not deliberately TANK, i.e. start Calderon/Huertas/MWP/Robinson/Black and completely bench/shut down youngsters.
If we lose organically, i.e., playing our young core a ton of minutes, then I happily accept whatever the outcome is. |
Of course we shouldn't bench the young players. However, trading guys like Lou and Young is starting to make more and more sense. It would give the young guys more PT, and at the same time increase the likelihood of us retaining our two first round picks. If we somehow lucked out and got the chance to add, say, Lonzo Ball to the young core? That would be an extremely favorable outcome.
It makes sense to not only trade Lou/Young, but also to start giving Zubac some of Mozgov's minutes. These moves give the young guys more floor time and also increase the likelihood of us keeping the pick. |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
agreed. The one frustration I've had with Luke is that the young core hasn't shared the court together enough. Clarkson/Ingram are staggered from Russell/Randle. Now that playoffs are out of the question, I'd like to see them play together even if it isn't optimal in terms of team wins. Lou/Young/Deng/Mozgov at this point aren't doing us any favors. They limit floor time for the young core, and at the same time, hurt our chances of keeping the pick.
I want all of the young guys getting 32+ minutes.
Last edited by dao on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
Doesn't matter. Not a promise that we could hold him to. I would operate with the assumption he's opting out, and asking for much more than $5m/year.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
playing the kid out of position  If watching Tobias Harris, a big SF, take him off the dribble at will last game is not enough to end the discussion of Ingram playing the #2, I guess nothing will... |
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DangeRuss
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | governator wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
playing the kid out of position If watching Tobias Harris, a big SF, take him off the dribble at will last game is not enough to end the discussion of Ingram playing the #2, I guess nothing will... |
Disagree. Ingram has everything you need to thrive as a 2. He actually fits better as a 2 than dangelo does imo. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| DangeRuss wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | governator wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
playing the kid out of position If watching Tobias Harris, a big SF, take him off the dribble at will last game is not enough to end the discussion of Ingram playing the #2, I guess nothing will... |
Disagree. Ingram has everything you need to thrive as a 2. He actually fits better as a 2 than dangelo does imo. |
Disagree. Ingram defending 2's takes away quickness advantages defensively and may be even harsher on his body.
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DangeRuss wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | governator wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
playing the kid out of position If watching Tobias Harris, a big SF, take him off the dribble at will last game is not enough to end the discussion of Ingram playing the #2, I guess nothing will... |
Disagree. Ingram has everything you need to thrive as a 2. He actually fits better as a 2 than dangelo does imo. |
DLO does not play the #2? What is your claim of Ingram based on? |
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nash
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Rigged4fun wrote: | | I know this will be unwelcomed here, but I think Russell needs to be traded. IMO as long as he's our starting PG, I don't think the Lakers will ever win a championship let alone playoff beyond the first round. |
It is unwelcomed because giving up on a player in his second season is not a good idea. The very picture of impatience. |
Especially if the package is for something like Noel or Oak, and possible 5th/6th pick in this year's draft. Ugh. |
I'm 101% with you about that.
Everybody knows I was chocked when we picked Dlo over Okafor, but despite the impression that they share the same kind of limitations (lack of elite athleticism and defensive upside) I just can't think about a better guard than Dlo with Booker being the closer while there is at least a handful of bigs I would pick ahead of Okafor.
I would entertain a trade for Dlo because despite the argument about Curry physical limitations we are arguably talking about the best shooter ever with out of the charts ball handling skills, but Dlo has proved he can score a dozen of points in a couple of minutes and if he could find some consistency as he matures there is a risk we are moving an elite scorer, so I wouldn't move him unless we are getting a sure thing in return. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | DangeRuss wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | governator wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
playing the kid out of position If watching Tobias Harris, a big SF, take him off the dribble at will last game is not enough to end the discussion of Ingram playing the #2, I guess nothing will... |
Disagree. Ingram has everything you need to thrive as a 2. He actually fits better as a 2 than dangelo does imo. |
DLO does not play the #2? What is your claim of Ingram based on? |
The idea that bigger players playing SG doesn't always work. It's been tried with Durant, it didn't last long. LeBron began his rookie year playing point guard. Only lasted that year.
Ingram's best benefits are based on length and slightly above average athleticism at SF.
Put him at SG, and it negates the athletic advantages and basically you have a guy that has to deal with fighting screens, instead of potentially playing rover on defense or providing defensive help with light rim protection and rebounding.
DLO plays the 2 on offense and it's not an issue. But, DLO deals with PGs defensively and has the length/feet to cope with SGs. Not, that I'm saying that's ideal.
I don't think you want to see a guy have to burn his wheels just to play defense. I don't see any advantages developmentally at both ends of the floor.
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DangeRuss
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | DangeRuss wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | governator wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
playing the kid out of position If watching Tobias Harris, a big SF, take him off the dribble at will last game is not enough to end the discussion of Ingram playing the #2, I guess nothing will... |
Disagree. Ingram has everything you need to thrive as a 2. He actually fits better as a 2 than dangelo does imo. |
DLO does not play the #2? What is your claim of Ingram based on? |
I know dlo doesn't play the 2, thank god, a lot of people have been begging for him to switch there.. Its based on watching Ingram play. I prefer him as a sf, but he can easily play sg if Luke wanted. Plus 2 & 3 are the most interchangeable positions in basketball. Not sure how someone can say he can play one and not the other. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | DangeRuss wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | governator wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
I'm ok with looking for trade partners for Lou or Swaggy, with the caveat that we then go with something like DLO/JC/Ingram/Randle/Moz (ceremonial starter, but give Zub more minutes) for the rest of the year. |
What is Swaggy indicated he will opt in....would you still look to move him? |
easy, keep him, run him with the bench unit and slide Ingram with the starter unit |
playing the kid out of position If watching Tobias Harris, a big SF, take him off the dribble at will last game is not enough to end the discussion of Ingram playing the #2, I guess nothing will... |
Disagree. Ingram has everything you need to thrive as a 2. He actually fits better as a 2 than dangelo does imo. |
DLO does not play the #2? What is your claim of Ingram based on? |
The idea that bigger players playing SG doesn't always work. It's been tried with Durant, it didn't last long. LeBron began his rookie year playing point guard. Only lasted that year.
Ingram's best benefits are based on length and slightly above average athleticism at SF.
Put him at SG, and it negates the athletic advantages and basically you have a guy that has to deal with fighting screens, instead of potentially playing rover on defense or providing defensive help with light rim protection and rebounding.
DLO plays the 2 on offense and it's not an issue. But, DLO deals with PGs defensively and has the length/feet to cope with SGs. Not, that I'm saying that's ideal.
I don't think you want to see a guy have to burn his wheels just to play defense. I don't see any advantages developmentally at both ends of the floor. |
wait, we agree, right? In general, i think we both think Ingram should continue being developed as a SF. |
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