Laker Film Room (Pg. 86: Video - Danny Green's Defense: How He Matches Up vs the Best Scorers in the West)
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject:

TooMuchMajicBuss wrote:
Reading the excellent article on defense has changed my perspective a lot about where our weaknesses on interior defense reside. It's not all on Mozgov, Randle and DLO need to start playing their roles more effectively.

It is interesting that a young kid like Zubac can come in and erase the mistakes in ways that Mozgov can't, but if all of our players were on the same page, with proper reads, communication, understanding of their role in a given situation, and effort, then we wouldn't need to rely on our center as much to erase such a multitude of mistakes in the first place.

edit - not just Randle/DLO falling short here - all of our guards
Very Informative!!!

Zubac has younger legs to wipe out mistakes where Mosgov is more effieicnt in a system where everybody is "playing on a line"
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject:

Yeah, Zu's greater shotblocking prowess should help marginally, but in the near term, he's still at a deficiency in things like getting in the right spot, calling out coverages, and even physically. It's nice that he can hold his own at times, but don't expect him to transform the defense while he's still so young.

Both players will need the other guys to be consistent and focused on defense for their impact to really show through in the team numbers.

It takes a certain kind of freak like Gobert or Embiid to lift a defense all by themselves.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Game Preview: Pacers vs. Lakers, 1/20/17

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Indiana’s defense is respectable, but suffer because they give up the most open threes (6 ft. +) in the league at 14.2 a game. Indiana struggles in contesting threes in both transition and in the half court. It will be imperative for Los Angeles to take advantage of this, despite being one of the worst shooting teams on uncontested 3PA at 35.7%.


http://lakerfilmroom.com/game-preview-pacers-vs-lakers-12017/
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
tox wrote:
@fiendish,
I'm interested in the Hornets comparison you made. Was their sterling defensive performance in '13-'14 really just a matter of hammering down the small details?

I always did wonder how a team with Al Jefferson was such a good defensive team, but I mostly chalked it up to Clifford being a good coach and leaving it up to that.


Pretty much. I used them as an example of what can be achieved if you just cut down on mistakes, not what I think the Lakers will become. Now their scheme was pretty much designed to reduce those mistakes, and then play the percentages - there's a ceiling on how far that approach gets you, even though they finished 5th in efficiency in the regular season. (The environment was a bit different back then too as teams were not as well equipped to handle soft coverages on the PnR.) They did have Biyombo coming off the bench and pretty good size at the wings top to bottom, if not a whole lot of offense.

Luke has been more ambitious in mixing up his coverages, with the switches and different looks for different teams. Sometimes the roster just couldn't handle it. Plus, the team isn't very well equipped to deal with the kind of injuries that they've been having, with the mix of undersized players filling out the bench. The hope is that next year they can fill these holes, have some natural growth, and also have developed some good habits to build on.


Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. I do like how you point out that the starters and the (healthy) bench both have great defensive ratings (relative to the team), but mixed units are horrible. It does suggest that players simply knowing their roles & being familiar with each other will help improve this Swiss cheese defense.

I also see what you're saying about there being a sort of "limit" in how good a "don't make mistakes" scheme will help, and how Luke's increased ambitiousness should help them long term. What would you say the Lakers' biggest defensive need is right now? A mobile 5 (that isn't undersized), or a lockdown defender who takes the most difficult wing on a nightly basis (which you mentioned in your article)?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:19 am    Post subject:

The New Lakers Offense, Part 6: Horns
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:23 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
tox wrote:
@fiendish,
I'm interested in the Hornets comparison you made. Was their sterling defensive performance in '13-'14 really just a matter of hammering down the small details?

I always did wonder how a team with Al Jefferson was such a good defensive team, but I mostly chalked it up to Clifford being a good coach and leaving it up to that.


Pretty much. I used them as an example of what can be achieved if you just cut down on mistakes, not what I think the Lakers will become. Now their scheme was pretty much designed to reduce those mistakes, and then play the percentages - there's a ceiling on how far that approach gets you, even though they finished 5th in efficiency in the regular season. (The environment was a bit different back then too as teams were not as well equipped to handle soft coverages on the PnR.) They did have Biyombo coming off the bench and pretty good size at the wings top to bottom, if not a whole lot of offense.

Luke has been more ambitious in mixing up his coverages, with the switches and different looks for different teams. Sometimes the roster just couldn't handle it. Plus, the team isn't very well equipped to deal with the kind of injuries that they've been having, with the mix of undersized players filling out the bench. The hope is that next year they can fill these holes, have some natural growth, and also have developed some good habits to build on.


Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation. I do like how you point out that the starters and the (healthy) bench both have great defensive ratings (relative to the team), but mixed units are horrible. It does suggest that players simply knowing their roles & being familiar with each other will help improve this Swiss cheese defense.

I also see what you're saying about there being a sort of "limit" in how good a "don't make mistakes" scheme will help, and how Luke's increased ambitiousness should help them long term. What would you say the Lakers' biggest defensive need is right now? A mobile 5 (that isn't undersized), or a lockdown defender who takes the most difficult wing on a nightly basis (which you mentioned in your article)?


Biggest need I think is Randle playing up to his potential at that end and another decent sized wing who gets after it defensively both on and off ball. Ingram probably grows into the guy who draws the tough assignments, but a guy who can ramp the intensity level and be disruptive without making mistakes would help the team a lot.
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bonkers
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:01 pm    Post subject:

Wasn't sure where to post this, but an interesting article that talks about how the Rockets shoot "deeper" 3s in order to stretch the floor even more:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/20/14284896/houston-rockets-three-point-stats-mike-dantoni
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lakeshow03
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject:

The "I" formation that they make when in help, is that solely on pick and rolls, or do they make the same formation if the ball is in the corner for instance?
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject:

bonkers wrote:
Wasn't sure where to post this, but an interesting article that talks about how the Rockets shoot "deeper" 3s in order to stretch the floor even more:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/20/14284896/houston-rockets-three-point-stats-mike-dantoni


Yeah, I reposted this on Twitter as well. I think it could become a trend going forward across the league. Especially with guys like the Ball brothers coming in.

It's very hard to recover to after helping inside.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject:

lakeshow03 wrote:
The "I" formation that they make when in help, is that solely on pick and rolls, or do they make the same formation if the ball is in the corner for instance?


Same outside of pick and rolls depending on the position of the ball, like in your example.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
bonkers wrote:
Wasn't sure where to post this, but an interesting article that talks about how the Rockets shoot "deeper" 3s in order to stretch the floor even more:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/20/14284896/houston-rockets-three-point-stats-mike-dantoni


Yeah, I reposted this on Twitter as well. I think it could become a trend going forward across the league. Especially with guys like the Ball brothers coming in.

It's very hard to recover to after helping inside.


I would not hate them widening the court from 47 to 50 feet.
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P.K.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
bonkers wrote:
Wasn't sure where to post this, but an interesting article that talks about how the Rockets shoot "deeper" 3s in order to stretch the floor even more:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/20/14284896/houston-rockets-three-point-stats-mike-dantoni


Yeah, I reposted this on Twitter as well. I think it could become a trend going forward across the league. Especially with guys like the Ball brothers coming in.

It's very hard to recover to after helping inside.


I would not hate them widening the court from 47 to 50 feet.

I'd say 52 feet at a minimum.
The 3pt line is 23.75ft at the top of the key, but because of the sidelines it's only 22ft along the sidelines. To gain back the distance to make it 23.75 uniformly, they'd need an extra 3.5 feet (1.75 on each side). Plus adding an extra 1.5ft would add a little extra between the 3pt line & sideline to keep long legged guys like Ingram from stepping out of bounds when they're setting up to shoot from the baseline corner. With more and more 6'9" and taller guys shooting the 3, that problem is coming up more often.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
bonkers wrote:
Wasn't sure where to post this, but an interesting article that talks about how the Rockets shoot "deeper" 3s in order to stretch the floor even more:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/20/14284896/houston-rockets-three-point-stats-mike-dantoni


Yeah, I reposted this on Twitter as well. I think it could become a trend going forward across the league. Especially with guys like the Ball brothers coming in.

It's very hard to recover to after helping inside.


I would not hate them widening the court from 47 to 50 feet.

I'd say 52 feet at a minimum.
The 3pt line is 23.75ft at the top of the key, but because of the sidelines it's only 22ft along the sidelines. To gain back the distance to make it 23.75 uniformly, they'd need an extra 3.5 feet (1.75 on each side). Plus adding an extra 1.5ft would add a little extra between the 3pt line & sideline to keep long legged guys like Ingram from stepping out of bounds when they're setting up to shoot from the baseline corner. With more and more 6'9" and taller guys shooting the 3, that problem is coming up more often.


Interesting idea to lengthen the 3pt line too. I like it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject:

Larry Nance, Jr Has Been Sorely Missed

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Since neither Lou Williams nor Jordan Clarkson are prototypical PGs, Luke Walton chose to primarily stick to ball screens in early offensive situations, allowing his guards to attack without the burden of having to set up the offense. It takes a fairly specific skill set for a front court player to execute and thrive in this style of play. Not only must he be capable of setting quality screens, but he needs to be fast enough to get up court and set them before the defense is set. Furthermore, because it is considerably more difficult to get out and run after the opponent scores, he also needs to be a plus defender. Larry Nance, Jr. is the only player on the Lakers who checks off of each of these boxes, making him integral to the bench’s success.

http://lakerfilmroom.com/larry-nance-jr-sorely-missed/
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
bonkers wrote:
Wasn't sure where to post this, but an interesting article that talks about how the Rockets shoot "deeper" 3s in order to stretch the floor even more:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/20/14284896/houston-rockets-three-point-stats-mike-dantoni


Yeah, I reposted this on Twitter as well. I think it could become a trend going forward across the league. Especially with guys like the Ball brothers coming in.

It's very hard to recover to after helping inside.


I would not hate them widening the court from 47 to 50 feet.

I'd say 52 feet at a minimum.
The 3pt line is 23.75ft at the top of the key, but because of the sidelines it's only 22ft along the sidelines. To gain back the distance to make it 23.75 uniformly, they'd need an extra 3.5 feet (1.75 on each side). Plus adding an extra 1.5ft would add a little extra between the 3pt line & sideline to keep long legged guys like Ingram from stepping out of bounds when they're setting up to shoot from the baseline corner. With more and more 6'9" and taller guys shooting the 3, that problem is coming up more often.


A lot of smart points in this one.

Man I just came in here to say that multiple times a week I find myself saying " damn, how in the hell is a top sports franchise in the world in need of my online homie GoldenThroat". Seriously GT makes good points about every lineup while Luke and genius staff headed by BShaw, twiddle their thumbs..
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject:

Ask Lakerfilmroom: Why are we so tragic against the Mavs? Is it something in particular against their offense/players or has it just been coincidence/circumstances in each of these games?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:51 pm    Post subject:

TDRock wrote:
Ask Lakerfilmroom: Why are we so tragic against the Mavs? Is it something in particular against their offense/players or has it just been coincidence/circumstances in each of these games?


I mean, you can't lose by 50 without pretty much everything going wrong, but on the season I think a big part of the problem has been that Dallas does a good job of slowing the game down. I chart every game, and I think the Dallas games are 3 of the 5 lowest possession games of the season.

But, ummm...yeah.
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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject:

I haven't watched this one yet, but in previous contests Carlisle was pinpointing our weaknesses (like Randle's closeouts) and hammering them until we crumbled.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject:

New Podcast: Tank is a Four Letter Word
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awntawn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
New Podcast: Tank is a Four Letter Word

What you're proposing they should do going forward is exactly what they should have done from the beginning of the season. We talk about last year being a wasted season of development. I would argue we've already wasted the first half of this season. Starting the season 10-10 on the backs of Lou Williams and a revitalized Nick Young was literally the worst thing that could have happened to this team and arguably has set us back half a year. Rather than shifting the focus on developing and putting accountability onto the shoulders of our young core, we've been spending the last quarter of a season trying to recapture the magic from the first quarter when it was all just a flash in the pan.
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:13 am    Post subject:

@GT, I thought what you said about defense was interesting in the context of fiendish's article. (fiendish, feel free to chime in as well, especially if I'm misrepresenting your point in any way.)

1) You talk about how the team hasn't really learned any PnR coverages well. But fiendish argues that the Lakers' defense partly is bad because there's no familiarity... the two lineups that played the most (and presumably practiced the most), starters & bench, actually have pretty decent defensive ratings.

Stats aside, does anything look fundamentally different to your eye test when you watch the starters (obviously the full bench has been out of commission)? I mean, one may also argue that the starters and bench mostly played in the beginning of the season before leagues scouted weaknesses in our PnR coverages (those core groups of 5 no longer play as much due to injuries).

I guess what I'm asking is... you were pretty negative on the defensive coaching they're getting especially in terms of miscommunication. But if the starters & bench look good as core units of 5, then doesn't it simply become a matter of not having enough reps together to make it work against NBA offenses when lineups are mixed? Because if that's the case, I don't see that as a cause for concern really... it's just being patient.

2) fiendish touched upon it in this thread, how the Lakers are more ambitious than, say, the Bobcats/ Hornets who were a #5 defense largely by not making mistakes in a conservative defense (the Lakers make tons of mistakes but play different kinds of defenses). It seemed to me that he thought this a good thing (though not necessarily as a rule, e.g. the over-switching in December), as the guys are getting used to all sorts of coverages.

You and Darius were pretty negative about how many coverages we run through, though. Darius even compared this to Byron... I thought the problem with Byron was his understanding of defensive spacing principles and the like were flawed to begin with. Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject:

I actually didn't think it was a good thing that they were throwing so many coverages at them, just trying to state Luke's thinking in doing so (from his interview with Woj).

I agree with what Darius said, that they should learn to walk instead of run. I don't believe that they would come close to the improvement that Charlotte did with that approach because offenses have changed as well, but it would help them not look terrible at that end. It's worth noting that Golden State was already a top defense team under Mark Jackson and Mike Malone before they caught everyone's attention with the switching.

But it's not like Luke NEEDS to do this before they show progress. It just means that progress in certain things may go slower.
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tox
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:34 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
I actually didn't think it was a good thing that they were throwing so many coverages at them, just trying to state Luke's thinking in doing so (from his interview with Woj).

I agree with what Darius said, that they should learn to walk instead of run. I don't believe that they would come close to the improvement that Charlotte did with that approach because offenses have changed as well, but it would help them not look terrible at that end. It's worth noting that Golden State was already a top defense team under Mark Jackson and Mike Malone before they caught everyone's attention with the switching.

But it's not like Luke NEEDS to do this before they show progress. It just means that progress in certain things may go slower.


Ah I gotcha. Thanks for the correction. But this still leaves the question of why the starting unit is so much more effective defensively. Do they run a consistent PnR coverage, while the other units tend to run them haphazardly as you've all criticized? I keep coming back to this lineup because I don't really see why they're so (relatively) effective. On paper, they certainly shouldn't be by the personnel.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject:

tox wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
I actually didn't think it was a good thing that they were throwing so many coverages at them, just trying to state Luke's thinking in doing so (from his interview with Woj).

I agree with what Darius said, that they should learn to walk instead of run. I don't believe that they would come close to the improvement that Charlotte did with that approach because offenses have changed as well, but it would help them not look terrible at that end. It's worth noting that Golden State was already a top defense team under Mark Jackson and Mike Malone before they caught everyone's attention with the switching.

But it's not like Luke NEEDS to do this before they show progress. It just means that progress in certain things may go slower.


Ah I gotcha. Thanks for the correction. But this still leaves the question of why the starting unit is so much more effective defensively. Do they run a consistent PnR coverage, while the other units tend to run them haphazardly as you've all criticized? I keep coming back to this lineup because I don't really see why they're so (relatively) effective. On paper, they certainly shouldn't be by the personnel.


Honestly I haven't watched enough film this season to nail down why it all goes to hell the moment a player gets subbed into the main lineups. My suspicion is that outside of unfamiliarity with changing roles on the defensive end, it's also related to the offensive end, where they were already walking a razor's edge to begin with the spacing. Sub a poor shooter like Brandon was in the beginning of the year and all of the sudden we're hitting a wall in the paint and the other team is breaking in the other direction (with a couple of the young guys just picking up the easiest transition matchup available and hanging teammates out to dry.)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
bonkers wrote:
Wasn't sure where to post this, but an interesting article that talks about how the Rockets shoot "deeper" 3s in order to stretch the floor even more:

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/20/14284896/houston-rockets-three-point-stats-mike-dantoni


Yeah, I reposted this on Twitter as well. I think it could become a trend going forward across the league. Especially with guys like the Ball brothers coming in.

It's very hard to recover to after helping inside.


I would not hate them widening the court from 47 to 50 feet.

I'd say 52 feet at a minimum.
The 3pt line is 23.75ft at the top of the key, but because of the sidelines it's only 22ft along the sidelines. To gain back the distance to make it 23.75 uniformly, they'd need an extra 3.5 feet (1.75 on each side). Plus adding an extra 1.5ft would add a little extra between the 3pt line & sideline to keep long legged guys like Ingram from stepping out of bounds when they're setting up to shoot from the baseline corner. With more and more 6'9" and taller guys shooting the 3, that problem is coming up more often.

No, I don't think that is a good idea if we want to enjoy basketball. Making the court bigger will just make it even worse to defend, so we will have essentially players that can run fast, catch a ball and shoot deep three pointers. Nobody will care about footwork or any other skill anymore. If you get even more space big men don't need to have any skill anymore at all. This will become a chuck festival of SG/SF type players.

I also think having a tight corner and a three point line that is not the same everywhere is very good. If you don't have the skill to shoot from the corner without stepping out of bounds - maybe you don't belong in the NBA.
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