Lakers Have the 5th Best Young Core (25 or Under)
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Lakers Have the 5th Best Young Core (25 or Under)

Sina wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I made a post about a year ago concerning young emerging cores (I couldnít find it in the archives). So, now that we have a bit of more information, letís compare some young cores (age 25 or under). Hereís how Iíve rated them:

1. Minny: KAT, Dunn, Wiggins, Jones, Lavine, Muhammad
2. 76ers: Embiid, Simmons, Saric, Noel, Okafor, TLC, Stauskas
3. Bucks: Giannis, Brogdon, Thon, Middleton, Parker, Snell
4. Jazz: Exum, Favors, Gobert, Hood, Lyles
5. Lakers: DLO, Ingram, Jules, JC, Nance, Zubac
6. Nuggets: Harris, Jokic, Nurkic, Mudiay, Murray
7. Suns: Bender, Booker, Chriss, Knight, Len, Warren
8. OKC: Adams, Abrines, Grant, Oladipo, Payne, Sabonis
9. Knicks: Hernangomez, Porky
10. Magic: Biyombo, Fournier, Gordon, Hezonja, Payton

Top 3 IMO are certainly any combination of Minny, 76ers, and Bucks. Bucks have the all-star, Minny has 2 ROY winners, and the 76ers have the likely current ROY (plus several lottery picks this year). The Jazz have some excellent player too. Lakers/Nuggets are probably close together, with Jokic currently being the best player out of the two teams.

Lakers have the 5th best young core under 25. Is that good enough to build on?


Do you still think Minny/76ers/Bucks have superior young players than us, as a team?

Russell
Clarkson
Ingram
Randle, Nance
Zubac, Black

What's a balance team full of potential! Russell, Ingram, Randle and maybe Zubac maybe all star someday


I think they do, but it's fluid. With the injuries, it's hard to say as Lavine/Embiid/Simmons/Parker all out this season.

I actually would move up the Nuggets past the Lakers as Jokic is reaching star potential.
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-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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justsomelakerfan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject:

I've got Minny, Bucks, Nuggets, and 76ers if they can stay healthy above the Lakers. I have us kind of tied with the Suns after that (Chriss is a project but I like him), but ahead of Orlando still.

Kind of why I'm a little more open to making a trade for a star these days, if it involves trading the right guys. There's a point with young players where you decide whether to sell high while they have value, or go all-in on them to the point where the rest of the league figures them out, and they have less trade value. I don't think we're there yet, but we're a whole lot closer after this 2nd half of the season.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject:

Utah is an illustrative middle ground between OKC and Orlando. Even if the Lakers may not have a future top-10 player among their young core, wisely sticking with the best of their young players, moving the ones who don't fit as well, and savvy drafting with late-round picks can yield a strong playoff core. Obviously the Lakers then have the advantage of being a destination franchise over Utah, and the ability to spend well above the cap to retain a talented winner, which increases their chances of building a championship roster.

Overall, I'm a lot more optimistic about the trajectories of Ingram and Russell, projecting them both to be top-15 players, which elevates the overall upside of the Lakers young core. I don't see that same reasonable peak potential yet on the Denver roster (Jokic has top-10 potential) or the Suns (Bender is a dark horse) while Milwaukee and Philly's rosters are significant question marks outside of the Greek Freak (top-5 potential) due to multiple injuries to key players and diminished value of key assets (Noel trade; Ojafor).
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject:

I think Giannis/Brogdon favorably push Bucks up (especially Giannis b/c he will be an all-NBA player this year). I'm less sanguine about Jabari going forward, especially b/c he is due for an extension soon.

76ers, too difficult to say at this point. Embiid/Simmons injuries surely are negatives at this point but they are really great talented pieces.

Minny is finally but slowly on the right path. They have an all-NBA level talent in KAT, and some borderline-all star in Wiggins. Lavine is putting up some numbers and Dunn has been a disappointment.

Jokic may vie for all-NBA status next year. So that elevates Denver IMO.

I do like our young core and it's TBD with a top 3 pick looming in the horizon. But I don't see an all-NBA level player in our stable yet. I think of the group DLO has the best chance, but he's years away from even hitting that mark. Ingram will need years too. Jules is improving, but I don't have him on the same tier as DLO/Ingram.
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2 Max Scenarios:

-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject:

In regards to this thread, if we keep our pick and the young players take that next step next year by getting wins, and the pick comes in and contributes right away, we can have a real bright future...
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BynumForThree
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
In regards to this thread, if we keep our pick and the young players take that next step next year by getting wins, and the pick comes in and contributes right away, we can have a real bright future...

The lottery this year is going to change the landscape of the league. Give us Fultz and Russell/Fultz/Ingram is right there with Philly, Milwaukee and Minnesota. If Philly gets super lucky they'll have the East on lockdown for the next decade.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I think Giannis/Brogdon favorably push Bucks up (especially Giannis b/c he will be an all-NBA player this year). I'm less sanguine about Jabari going forward, especially b/c he is due for an extension soon.

76ers, too difficult to say at this point. Embiid/Simmons injuries surely are negatives at this point but they are really great talented pieces.

Minny is finally but slowly on the right path. They have an all-NBA level talent in KAT, and some borderline-all star in Wiggins. Lavine is putting up some numbers and Dunn has been a disappointment.

Jokic may vie for all-NBA status next year. So that elevates Denver IMO.

I do like our young core and it's TBD with a top 3 pick looming in the horizon. But I don't see an all-NBA level player in our stable yet. I think of the group DLO has the best chance, but he's years away from even hitting that mark. Ingram will need years too. Jules is improving, but I don't have him on the same tier as DLO/Ingram.

Yeah I'd rank it as the following:
Minnesota
Bucks
76ers
Denver
Utah
Lakers

76ers have the potential to be the best "young core" should Embiid and Simmons be healthy enough to become the talented players they can be, but as of now I'd rank Minnesota and Milwaukee over both because of KAT and Giannis, both being superstar caliber players without any injury concerns.

Denver elevated significantly for me because of Jokic proving how much potential he has. Their next best player with the best potential is probably Murray, don't think much of Mudiay and think that Harris will be a spot-starter/good role player on a playoff team.

Utah is more of a mix of vets and youth, with Hill and Hayward along with Gobert, probably the most underrated center in the league, but Favors has regressed and Exum hasn't shown much. I like Hood and Lyles though.

Lakers don't have anyone who have clearly defined themselves as an All NBA caliber talent (KAT, Giannis, Embiid, Jokic) or proved to have as big of an impact as someone like Gobert. For me Russell has proven the most so far and he has the most potential to be an All NBA caliber talent out of everyone of the core, but he isn't a sure fire thing, yet.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject:

#1 is clearly Minnesota... #2 is clearly Philly. #3, IMO, up for grabs between Milwaukee, the Lakers and Denver. ATM, you have to favor the Bucks as they have an established star in Giannis. But when evaluating pure potential, I think we're right there.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:56 am    Post subject:

We are not in good position right now. After years tanking one must be a homer to tell we have a single player to build around that is going to be an all star for sure. I don't have our scouting department is such a high regard as most forummates. They are doing a fine job finding serviceable NBA players with late pick, but if they somewhat found a gem it is going to take a few seasons of huge development to really know.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:59 pm    Post subject:

Where are the Pelicans? One 23 year old Anthony Davis is better than almost all the "young cores".
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject:

The Grind wrote:
#1 is clearly Minnesota... #2 is clearly Philly. #3, IMO, up for grabs between Milwaukee, the Lakers and Denver. ATM, you have to favor the Bucks as they have an established star in Giannis. But when evaluating pure potential, I think we're right there.


Clearly? Clearly debatable...

Philly has to get over their injuries as well as management mistakes past and present first to be "clearly" second.

I would say Minny is 1A to Milwaukee's 1B... Giannis is the real deal and will be a nightmare for many teams in the league for years to come...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject:

It's the teams with a franchise player and the teams without one.

Embiid health is too much of a question mark but Simmons can fit the bill.

T-Wolves with KAT

Bucks with Giannis.

Denver with Jokic.

Jazz have Gobert and Hayward (yeah he's 26 but just entering his prime)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject:

Does the trade for Fultz move Philly to #1? I think I would take Philly and the Bucks before the T-Wolves.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject:

30 wrote:
Does the trade for Fultz move Philly to #1? I think I would take Philly and the Bucks before the T-Wolves.


I have to see two things before I do that:
1) Simmons play in NBA games
2) Embiid and Simmons are reliably healthy to start the season

If everything health-wise pans out for them, I prefer their core to every other team's, including Minny. They need to surround themselves with good shooters to make sure this works. Embiid is reliable, Fultz should be good in time (maybe not right away), and Simmons can't shoot.

If those three guys are healthy, it's insane to think that their third option amongst their core is likely a better prospect than anyone the Lakers have.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject:

30 wrote:
Does the trade for Fultz move Philly to #1? I think I would take Philly and the Bucks before the T-Wolves.


Yes. Though obviously health depending. If healthy best young core. I'm actually sanguine about ours too. Still have them top 5.
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2 Max Scenarios:

-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
30 wrote:
Does the trade for Fultz move Philly to #1? I think I would take Philly and the Bucks before the T-Wolves.


Yes. Though obviously health depending. If healthy best young core. I'm actually sanguine about ours too. Still have them top 5.


I think we're #3 behind Philly and Minny now, and honestly not too far off overall from the latter. We don't have a prospect on the level of a KAT or Giannis, but if you're looking at entire cores (because no one player is going to win on their own), we're deeper than Milwaukee for sure and catching up to Minny. Utah doesn't even compare anymore.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:57 am    Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:
30 wrote:
Does the trade for Fultz move Philly to #1? I think I would take Philly and the Bucks before the T-Wolves.


I have to see two things before I do that:
1) Simmons play in NBA games
2) Embiid and Simmons are reliably healthy to start the season

If everything health-wise pans out for them, I prefer their core to every other team's, including Minny. They need to surround themselves with good shooters to make sure this works. Embiid is reliable, Fultz should be good in time (maybe not right away), and Simmons can't shoot.

If those three guys are healthy, it's insane to think that their third option amongst their core is likely a better prospect than anyone the Lakers have.


Yep. It's also just a bit insane to realize that we came within one pick of having at least one of those transcendent talents. Just one of either KAT, Simmons, and now Fultz, would significantly change that whole dynamic.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject:

Assuming we draft Zo, I like the way our young core compliments each other better than the other groups.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
Assuming we draft Zo, I like the way our young core compliments each other better than the other groups.


I'm very sanguine about our group. Smart and selfless players. Maybe not as much "superstar" power as Philly but I can't hate them for their luck.
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2 Max Scenarios:

-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Assuming we draft Zo, I like the way our young core compliments each other better than the other groups.


I'm very sanguine about our group. Smart and selfless players. Maybe not as much "superstar" power as Philly but I can't hate them for their luck.


I think a core needs a superstar potential player to be in the same conversation at Philly-Minny-Bucks-Denver (even if the parts of the Lakers >>> Denver's core minus Jokic). The Lakers don't really have anyone on the same planet as KAT, Embiid, Jokic, or Giannis.

I think the world of Russell's future in the league but we can't say that about him.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject:

If Sacramento does well at 5 and 10 then they could enter this conversation.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject:

For me it goes:

1. 76ers (3 stars if everyone is healthy + Saric and trade bait in Okafor)
2. Minny (2 potential stars)

Pretty big gap.
3. Phx (Booker, Chriss, Bender + Tatum or Jackson)
4. Lakers (Ingram, Dlo, Ball, Randle) - If Ingram develops into a star, then they go above the Suns.
5. Denver
6. Sacramento
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Laker's Fan wrote:
Assuming we draft Zo, I like the way our young core compliments each other better than the other groups.


I'm very sanguine about our group. Smart and selfless players. Maybe not as much "superstar" power as Philly but I can't hate them for their luck.


I think a core needs a superstar potential player to be in the same conversation at Philly-Minny-Bucks-Denver (even if the parts of the Lakers >>> Denver's core minus Jokic). The Lakers don't really have anyone on the same planet as KAT, Embiid, Jokic, or Giannis.

I think the world of Russell's future in the league but we can't say that about him.


This is true but they're also teams that historically don't have any impact in FA. I think we easily have #2-4 options now with our young core with a few with some luck being possible 1st options down the road.
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2 Max Scenarios:

-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
Assuming we draft Zo, I like the way our young core compliments each other better than the other groups.


If I had to bet on the first of these teams winning a championship, I would go with the Lakers.

First, our young core is very broad, and includes not only Ingram, Russell, and Randle, but also Clarkson, Zubac, Nance, and number two (presumably Lonzo).

Second, it is also exceptionally young, with special talent in the 21 and under group. Ingram, Russell, Zubac, and Ball all have the potential to become all-stars, and I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of them become Hall of Famers.

Third, they complement each other well. We have every position covered, and for the most part complementary strengths (except for defense, where we need some improvement.)

Fourth, due to our depth and good health, we are less likely to be brought down by injuries than some of the other teams (especially Philadelphia).

Finally, it is the Lakers, so I think we will have an easier time attracting free agents than some of these other teams.

I am really excited about these young guys. I expect to see improvements of +10 additional wins every year for the next few years, hitting our peak just when Golden State starts their decline.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject:

I think we will be a MAJOR FA player in 2018, something that the better young core teams won't be (76ers are an interesting possibility though).
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2 Max Scenarios:

-JC out for $0/Deng stretched = 57.6m in 2018 cap space
-Same as above and Jules renounced/traded for $0 = 69.9m in 2018 cap space

2 out of these players will be a Laker in 2018 (LBJ/PG13/Boogie)
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