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| Which is more impressive between two players with the same number of championships? |
| The one with the higher Finals winning percentage (but fewer appearances) |
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8% |
[ 1 ] |
| The one with more Finals appearances (but a lower winning percentage) |
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91% |
[ 11 ] |
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| Total Votes : 12 |
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Message |
activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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 Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Magic unlike MJ didn't quit to take a year or two off....9 finals in 12 years is very impressive. The toll that takes on the body to play until June for so long is something that takes years off your career. |
I've always wondered what would MJ and the Bulls done if he hadn't taken two years.
They 3peated. He took two years off they didn't win the Larry O'Brien. He came back and lo and behold they 3peated.
If he hadn't take 2 off I always wondered would they have matched the Celtics 8 championships in a row? |
Hard to say. For one thing, they always had trouble against Hakeem. Even in years when the Rockets were a crappy team, they gave the Bulls fits.
Bottom line: imaginary championships don't matter. |
I'm chuckling at the responses to my wondering. Never said he would one way or the other, just WONDERED! |
You wondered what might have happened.
I gave an opinion on what might have happened.
Seemed like a pretty commonplace exchange to moi. |
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jodeke
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Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Magic unlike MJ didn't quit to take a year or two off....9 finals in 12 years is very impressive. The toll that takes on the body to play until June for so long is something that takes years off your career. |
I've always wondered what would MJ and the Bulls done if he hadn't taken two years.
They 3peated. He took two years off they didn't win the Larry O'Brien. He came back and lo and behold they 3peated.
If he hadn't take 2 off I always wondered would they have matched the Celtics 8 championships in a row? |
Hard to say. For one thing, they always had trouble against Hakeem. Even in years when the Rockets were a crappy team, they gave the Bulls fits.
Bottom line: imaginary championships don't matter. |
I'm chuckling at the responses to my wondering. Never said he would one way or the other, just WONDERED! |
You wondered what might have happened.
I gave an opinion on what might have happened.
Seemed like a pretty commonplace exchange to moi. |
You think the Rockets would have stopped the Bulls? Did you factor Mikes query | Quote: | | How would the Rockets have stopped MJ and Pippen? |
when asked | Quote: | | How would the Bulls have stopped Olajuwon? |
Of course imaginary championships don't matter, unless you're in a discussion about imaginary suppositions.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| jodeke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Magic unlike MJ didn't quit to take a year or two off....9 finals in 12 years is very impressive. The toll that takes on the body to play until June for so long is something that takes years off your career. |
I've always wondered what would MJ and the Bulls done if he hadn't taken two years.
They 3peated. He took two years off they didn't win the Larry O'Brien. He came back and lo and behold they 3peated.
If he hadn't take 2 off I always wondered would they have matched the Celtics 8 championships in a row? |
Hard to say. For one thing, they always had trouble against Hakeem. Even in years when the Rockets were a crappy team, they gave the Bulls fits.
Bottom line: imaginary championships don't matter. |
I'm chuckling at the responses to my wondering. Never said he would one way or the other, just WONDERED! |
You wondered what might have happened.
I gave an opinion on what might have happened.
Seemed like a pretty commonplace exchange to moi. |
You think the Rockets would have stopped the Bulls? Did you factor Mikes query | Quote: | | How would the Rockets have stopped MJ and Pippen? |
when asked | Quote: | | How would the Bulls have stopped Olajuwon? |
Of course imaginary championships don't matter, unless you're in a discussion about imaginary suppositions. |
1. The Bulls always had trouble with the Rockets, so I can't rubber stamp the notion that they would have beaten them. I think it would have been a fun finals, though I don't have any sense who would have won.
2. I mean imaginary championships have no impact on players actual reputations. But it can be a fun topic to discuss if you're in the mood. |
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jodeke
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Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 67716
Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Magic unlike MJ didn't quit to take a year or two off....9 finals in 12 years is very impressive. The toll that takes on the body to play until June for so long is something that takes years off your career. |
I've always wondered what would MJ and the Bulls done if he hadn't taken two years.
They 3peated. He took two years off they didn't win the Larry O'Brien. He came back and lo and behold they 3peated.
If he hadn't take 2 off I always wondered would they have matched the Celtics 8 championships in a row? |
Hard to say. For one thing, they always had trouble against Hakeem. Even in years when the Rockets were a crappy team, they gave the Bulls fits.
Bottom line: imaginary championships don't matter. |
I'm chuckling at the responses to my wondering. Never said he would one way or the other, just WONDERED! |
You wondered what might have happened.
I gave an opinion on what might have happened.
Seemed like a pretty commonplace exchange to moi. |
You think the Rockets would have stopped the Bulls? Did you factor Mikes query | Quote: | | How would the Rockets have stopped MJ and Pippen? |
when asked | Quote: | | How would the Bulls have stopped Olajuwon? |
Of course imaginary championships don't matter, unless you're in a discussion about imaginary suppositions. |
1. The Bulls always had trouble with the Rockets, so I can't rubber stamp the notion that they would have beaten them. I think it would have been a fun finals, though I don't have any sense who would have won.
2. I mean imaginary championships have no impact on players actual reputations. But it can be a fun topic to discuss if you're in the mood. |
I'm not rubber stamping anything, just wondering.
If I had to do a Nostradamus I'd pick the Bulls to come out on top.
Yeah, when you put it that way I agree.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Horry is going to the hall of fame, just for the finals stuff, nothing else. |
I'd be surprised if he ever gets into the Hall of Fame without a ticket. |
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slavavov
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Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8352
Location: Santa Monica
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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To me, getting to the finals more often but winning the same number of titles is less impressive. I know in some ways it's a accomplishment just to get there, but whether you lose in the finals or in the first round you lost. Simple as that. Many years later no one will really care if you got to the finals only to lose.
That's why I can't put Lebron ahead of Magic, Bird or Kobe. I know Bird won the same number of titles, but he lost only twice in the finals, while Lebron has lost four times (so far). It's not really about how many opportunities you get, it's what you make of them that's one measure (but not a complete) measure of your greatness.
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the association
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Joined: 03 Feb 2015
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | To me, getting to the finals more often but winning the same number of titles is less impressive. I know in some ways it's a accomplishment just to get there, but whether you lose in the finals or in the first round you lost. Simple as that. Many years later no one will really care if you got to the finals only to lose.
That's why I can't put Lebron ahead of Magic, Bird or Kobe. I know Bird won the same number of titles, but he lost only twice in the finals, while Lebron has lost four times (so far). It's not really about how many opportunities you get, it's what you make of them that's one measure (but not a complete) measure of your greatness. |
I don't quite understand the logic ... if that's your view, that it boils down to making the most of opportunity ... how do you justify failing to apply the logic from the first day of the season? I mean, why not apply the "what you make of them" test to the entire season? That way, the player who helps his team qualify for the playoffs made more of the opportunity than any of the guys who failed to do so. They all started the season at the same time, right? And the player who helped his team to the Finals made more of the opportunity than any of the guys who failed to do so, too. Didn't he clearly make more of the opportunity?
It just seems bizarre to hold a player in higher regard for failing to get as far. That's like saying the guy who finishes a race in last place is actually a better performer than the guy who finished in second place. What the what? Even better, consider an Olympic 100M race ... with the logic you espouse, the guy who finishes second to Usain Bolt with a time of 9.79 seconds is actually worse than the guy who failed to progress beyond the preliminaries, eliminated with a 9th place finish in Heat 6 with a time of 11.54 seconds. But he's better than the silver medal winner ... say what?
Anyway, I left you an out to keep the outcome the same ... just invoke the Eastern Conference vs. Western Conference argument to nullify what LeBron's accomplished ... |
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governator
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25092
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | CandyCanes wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | | lakersken80 wrote: | | Magic unlike MJ didn't quit to take a year or two off....9 finals in 12 years is very impressive. The toll that takes on the body to play until June for so long is something that takes years off your career. |
I've always wondered what would MJ and the Bulls done if he hadn't taken two years.
They 3peated. He took two years off they didn't win the Larry O'Brien. He came back and lo and behold they 3peated.
If he hadn't take 2 off I always wondered would they have matched the Celtics 8 championships in a row? |
How would the Bulls have stopped Olajuwon? |
How would the Rockets have stopped MJ and Pippen? |
You don't. Only a Shaq led team beat prime Bulls in a playoff series |
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governator
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| CandyCanes wrote: | | the association wrote: | My vote is for the player who had more NBA Finals appearances, and therefore lost more NBA Finals series, too ... I fail to see how being eliminated sooner in the season (or post-season) is a greater accomplishment, nor do I understand any argument for that position. I also reject conference arguments that some fans use to argue for devaluing a player's achievements in the R/S and postseason.
Jordan's 6/6 is impressive to me because he was Finals MVP each year, as well as the fact that he very likely would have eight rings and eight Finals MVPs right now if he hadn't retired for 1+ seasons in the mid-1990s. But Magic's 5/9 is generally more impressive to me (his opponents were better than Michael's opponents, too) ... |
You would take Magic's 5/9 record over Jordan's 6/6? In this case, not only is Magic's percentage lower, but he also has fewer championships... |
6 > 5 |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | To me, getting to the finals more often but winning the same number of titles is less impressive. I know in some ways it's a accomplishment just to get there, but whether you lose in the finals or in the first round you lost. Simple as that. Many years later no one will really care if you got to the finals only to lose.
That's why I can't put Lebron ahead of Magic, Bird or Kobe. I know Bird won the same number of titles, but he lost only twice in the finals, while Lebron has lost four times (so far). It's not really about how many opportunities you get, it's what you make of them that's one measure (but not a complete) measure of your greatness. |
I could see saying that rings are all that matter, and getting to the finals and losing is no better than not making the playoffs. That is probably the thing that most people think -- only the ring count matters.
But I don't get why someone is penalized for making the finals compared to a guy who doesn't make the playoffs. |
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