Wolves Zach LaVine out for season with torn ACL
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 am    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
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I'm not sold that minutes played correlates to knee injuries, in the sense that playing 37 minutes per game poses a dramatically greater risk than playing 34 minutes. I can buy the argument for muscle injuries, but I don't see a logical reason why playing an extra 3-4 minutes per game would make an ACL injury more likely. Otherwise, Wilt should have had a couple ACL injuries per year.


The risk of injury isn't linear, it's exponential with respect to minutes played. An accumulation of 3-4 mpg can make the difference between being tired and being fatigued. When a player is fatigued, the risk of injury skyrockets.


I'm not buying it, at least with respect to ACL injuries. First of all, I don't buy a correlation between fatigue and ACL injuries. Your ligaments do not become weaker when you are tired. Second, I don't buy that the difference between 34 mpg and 37 mpg makes a significant difference with respect to fatigue. These are professional athletes. You're telling me that they can't play basketball for 37 minutes without reaching a dangerous level of fatigue?

This stuff strikes me as nonsense. I think some people read articles about the importance of rest, yada yada yada, and extrapolate it to minutes played in a game.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:28 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I'm not sold that minutes played correlates to knee injuries, in the sense that playing 37 minutes per game poses a dramatically greater risk than playing 34 minutes. I can buy the argument for muscle injuries, but I don't see a logical reason why playing an extra 3-4 minutes per game would make an ACL injury more likely. Otherwise, Wilt should have had a couple ACL injuries per year.


Thibs has been known to overwork his players in practices.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I'm not sold that minutes played correlates to knee injuries, in the sense that playing 37 minutes per game poses a dramatically greater risk than playing 34 minutes. I can buy the argument for muscle injuries, but I don't see a logical reason why playing an extra 3-4 minutes per game would make an ACL injury more likely. Otherwise, Wilt should have had a couple ACL injuries per year.


The risk of injury isn't linear, it's exponential with respect to minutes played. An accumulation of 3-4 mpg can make the difference between being tired and being fatigued. When a player is fatigued, the risk of injury skyrockets.


I'm not buying it, at least with respect to ACL injuries. First of all, I don't buy a correlation between fatigue and ACL injuries. Your ligaments do not become weaker when you are tired. Second, I don't buy that the difference between 34 mpg and 37 mpg makes a significant difference with respect to fatigue. These are professional athletes. You're telling me that they can't play basketball for 37 minutes without reaching a dangerous level of fatigue?

This stuff strikes me as nonsense. I think some people read articles about the importance of rest, yada yada yada, and extrapolate it to minutes played in a game.


Tendons and ligaments are made of collagen. Collagen is made by glands that easily tire and don't work properly if fatigued - pituitary and adrenals. There are reasons why trainers know that overtraining fatigue is a real thing. I'm not sure if the exact details of what is depleted during overtraining has gone mainstream, but - each working organ/gland/hormone in your body does not completely refill it's gas tank when you overwork

Tired muscles causing more work from joints and ligaments - combined with decreased hormone output , glandular activity... These cause the injuries//comprise the common sense occurrence of injury when the body's overworked
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I'm not sold that minutes played correlates to knee injuries, in the sense that playing 37 minutes per game poses a dramatically greater risk than playing 34 minutes. I can buy the argument for muscle injuries, but I don't see a logical reason why playing an extra 3-4 minutes per game would make an ACL injury more likely. Otherwise, Wilt should have had a couple ACL injuries per year.


The risk of injury isn't linear, it's exponential with respect to minutes played. An accumulation of 3-4 mpg can make the difference between being tired and being fatigued. When a player is fatigued, the risk of injury skyrockets.


I'm not buying it, at least with respect to ACL injuries. First of all, I don't buy a correlation between fatigue and ACL injuries. Your ligaments do not become weaker when you are tired. Second, I don't buy that the difference between 34 mpg and 37 mpg makes a significant difference with respect to fatigue. These are professional athletes. You're telling me that they can't play basketball for 37 minutes without reaching a dangerous level of fatigue?

This stuff strikes me as nonsense. I think some people read articles about the importance of rest, yada yada yada, and extrapolate it to minutes played in a game.


Tendons and ligaments are made of collagen. Collagen is made by glands that easily tire and don't work properly if fatigued - pituitary and adrenals. There are reasons why trainers know that overtraining fatigue is a real thing. I'm not sure if the exact details of what is depleted during overtraining has gone mainstream, but - each working organ/gland/hormone in your body does not completely refill it's gas tank when you overwork

Tired muscles causing more work from joints and ligaments - combined with decreased hormone output , glandular activity... These cause the injuries//comprise the common sense occurrence of injury when the body's overworked


From what I've read, intensive athletic training can make people more sustainable to ACL injuries. However, that would apply to the workload of virtually any NBA player. A guy who plays 40 minutes a game wouldn't be more susceptible to an ACL injury than a guy who plays 32 minutes -- at least I know of no evidence to support that idea.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject:

Let's not forget the signs were there early, when LaVine was having to sit out of games early on in the season with those leg and calf pains from being run into the ground in practice and games.

The evidence was there that the overworking was having a negative effect, and then eventually, the worst case scenario happened.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject:

KeepItRealOrElse wrote:
Tendons and ligaments are made of collagen. Collagen is made by glands that easily tire and don't work properly if fatigued - pituitary and adrenals. There are reasons why trainers know that overtraining fatigue is a real thing. I'm not sure if the exact details of what is depleted during overtraining has gone mainstream, but - each working organ/gland/hormone in your body does not completely refill it's gas tank when you overwork

Tired muscles causing more work from joints and ligaments - combined with decreased hormone output , glandular activity... These cause the injuries//comprise the common sense occurrence of injury when the body's overworked


That's interesting, but it doesn't address the real issue: Does playing 37 minutes instead of 34 minutes increase the risk of an ACL injury? I looked at the medical literature in the internet, and I saw nothing that linked playing time to ACL injuries. I did see literature showing that "overtraining" is linked to injuries in general, but (1) playing 37 minutes is not "overtraining," and (2) I didn't see anything that specifically linked overtraining to ACL injuries. If anything, the literature is more relevant to the idea that playing back to back games poses a greater risk of injuries due to the lack of recovery time.

Over the history of the NBA, 37 mpg is nothing. To put this into perspective, here are the top 10 in mpg over the history of the NBA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mp_per_g_top_10.html

I just don't buy the link between 37 mpg and ACL injuries.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject:

3 minutes is a 4th of a quarter

And 246 extra minutes over the course of a season.

Add that up with long practices where you're run into the ground some more in ways that make Byron Scott seem like a saint, and the fact you play longer extra minutes in games that don't matter whether you're ahead or behind, and it all adds up.

There's only 9 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 36 Mins a game.

The Timberwolves have 3 of them.

The other 6 are LeBron James, Kyle Lowry, Jimmy Butler, James Harden, John Wall, and Anthony Davis. Average Age: 27.5 and all are superstars, not 2nd year kids trying to get their footing and still adjusting to the league while being one of the youngest teams in it.

And there's only 4 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 37 Mins a game

The Timberwolves have 2 of them!

That is excessive, no matter how you try to slice it, and Thibs gives no [expletives]s about player safety, as Butler, Deng and Rose will tell you, and Noah's career is near done at 31 because of the toll it took on his body.

So yeah.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
3 minutes is a 4th of a quarter

And 246 extra minutes over the course of a season.

Add that up with long practices where you're run into the ground some more in ways that make Byron Scott seem like a saint, and the fact you play longer extra minutes in games that don't matter whether you're ahead or behind, and it all adds up.

There's only 9 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 36 Mins a game.

The Timberwolves have 3 of them.

The other 6 are LeBron James, Kyle Lowry, Jimmy Butler, James Harden, John Wall, and Anthony Davis. Average Age: 27.5 and all are superstars, not 2nd year kids trying to get their footing and still adjusting to the league while being one of the youngest teams in it.

And there's only 4 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 37 Mins a game

The Timberwolves have 2 of them!

That is excessive, no matter how you try to slice it, and Thibs gives no [expletives]s about player safety, as Butler, Deng and Rose will tell you, and Noah's career is near done at 31 because of the toll it took on his body.

So yeah.


Good points ... what's additionally interesting to me is the fact that the primary desire of most modern day athletes (i.e., to maximize their playing time) is an impulse that plays right into the hands of a coach like Thibs ... and then when you couple it with the projection by many that the Timberwolves were poised to break-out this year with all of their young talent, it has become an almost perfect storm for increased risk of injury.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
MJST wrote:
3 minutes is a 4th of a quarter

And 246 extra minutes over the course of a season.

Add that up with long practices where you're run into the ground some more in ways that make Byron Scott seem like a saint, and the fact you play longer extra minutes in games that don't matter whether you're ahead or behind, and it all adds up.

There's only 9 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 36 Mins a game.

The Timberwolves have 3 of them.

The other 6 are LeBron James, Kyle Lowry, Jimmy Butler, James Harden, John Wall, and Anthony Davis. Average Age: 27.5 and all are superstars, not 2nd year kids trying to get their footing and still adjusting to the league while being one of the youngest teams in it.

And there's only 4 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 37 Mins a game

The Timberwolves have 2 of them!

That is excessive, no matter how you try to slice it, and Thibs gives no [expletives]s about player safety, as Butler, Deng and Rose will tell you, and Noah's career is near done at 31 because of the toll it took on his body.

So yeah.


Good points ... what's additionally interesting to me is the fact that the primary desire of most modern day athletes (i.e., to maximize their playing time) is an impulse that plays right into the hands of a coach like Thibs ... and then when you couple it with the projection by many that the Timberwolves were poised to break-out this year with all of their young talent, it has become an almost perfect storm for increased risk of injury.


In all honesty, they've got it reversed.

Hoiberg shouldn't be coaching Chicago, he should be coaching Minnesota,and Thibs should be an assistant somewhere.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
3 minutes is a 4th of a quarter

And 246 extra minutes over the course of a season.


Wow. Four hours of playing basketball over the course of six months. That just screams out "ACL injury" to me.
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MJST
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
MJST wrote:
3 minutes is a 4th of a quarter

And 246 extra minutes over the course of a season.


Wow. Four hours of playing basketball over the course of six months. That just screams out "ACL injury" to me.


Obviously you ignored "Add that up with long practices where you're run into the ground some more in ways that make Byron Scott seem like a saint, and the fact you play longer extra minutes in games that don't matter whether you're ahead or behind, and it all adds up. " right afterwards.

Followed by

There's only 9 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 36 Mins a game.

The Timberwolves have 3 of them.

The other 6 are LeBron James, Kyle Lowry, Jimmy Butler, James Harden, John Wall, and Anthony Davis. Average Age: 27.5 and all are superstars, not 2nd year kids trying to get their footing and still adjusting to the league while being one of the youngest teams in it.

And there's only 4 PLAYERS in all of the NBA that play over 37 Mins a game

The Timberwolves have 2 of them!

That is excessive, no matter how you try to slice it, and Thibs gives no [expletives]s about player safety, as Butler, Deng and Rose will tell you, and Noah's career is near done at 31 because of the toll it took on his body.




Understandable why you did, but it wasn't like it wasn't in plain sight, so you had to in order to try to push your point. Which is why you tried to turn KiRoE explaining why fatigue plays a factor in injuries "Does playing 37 minutes instead of 34 minutes increase the risk of an ACL injury?" instead. And when I wrote out what I did I also included the practices as well as the minutes distribution among the league and how much at the top of the list the T'Wolves are. But again you avoided that all in an attempt to make a smart alec comment that wouldn't have to address it.

So I'm wondering if you're trolling atp or just don't see/address what others have said because it dents your argument.

It ain't just a correlation between 37 Mins = ACL injuries

It's the correlation between running your players into the ground and how it increases the chance of injuries, it doesn't have to be ACL, that's just one of the worst case scenarios. And considering LaVine already had to sit out games earlier in the season due to calf and leg problems due to how hard Thibs was running him among them in practice, this was the kind of worst case scenario when you have a coach constantly pushing it and not caring about player safety.

Again, this is the kind of thing Thibs is known for, and it just got another kid hurt.

And now you have evidence of a direct correlation between injuries and fatigue, which happens when you're run into the ground, and MORE evidence at how ridiculous the young kid's minutes are when I showed you the list of minutes and how many Timberwolves are up there in that list.

Again, it's in plain sight. What Thibs is and has been doing is excessive, no matter how you slice it.

Keep on defending him if you want.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject:

You are also choosing to ignore the portions of the argument that you don't like. For most of the history of the NBA, 37 mpg represented fairly normal minutes for a starter. In the last few years, top end minutes have dropped. Is this because of concerns for player safety? Hardly. The league is just a lot deeper now, and coaches would rather have fresher players on the court.

Do you think that players didn't practice for the first 60+ years of the NBA? I'm pretty sure they did. Ask anyone who played for, say, Pat Riley.

It's okay for veterans like Lebron, but not okay for younger players? What? Do your ligaments get stronger with age?

These arguments are make no sense. It's just an attempt to blame a coach for an injury. I'm open to some sort of evidence that playing three extra minutes per game poses a greater risk of ACL injuries. If any such evidence existed, we'd have heard all about it.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject:

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2297
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