|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
2019
Franchise Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2014
Posts: 10799
|
 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| lakerjoshua wrote: | | I think Moz and Deng are not a good fit for our system. However, I don't think they are completely useless if they were playing in a slower more methodical half court offense, hence have some trade value. |
Nah, Deng is a good fit... maybe great fit...but at PF. Problem is that we have Ju and Larry who deserve the 48 mins worth of mins there unles we want to put them at C which means less for Zu or Black or even Moz.
I have less problem with the Deng contract than the Mozzy deal. Deng, a former all star, has been through the ringer of the NBA and seen it all. He seems to clearly be in the ear of DLO and Ingram. At the very least, he could be a Livingston type player at the 3/4 like Shaun is for GS at the 1/2. If that makes sense...
Mozzy needs to go though. Zu will be ready for big mins next year and Black has a solid place as a backup. Not to mention, Noel is a FA if we were able to free up Mozzy's money.
That Moz deal is looking worse and worse. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ziggy
Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 12712
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 2019 wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | I think Moz and Deng are not a good fit for our system. However, I don't think they are completely useless if they were playing in a slower more methodical half court offense, hence have some trade value. |
Nah, Deng is a good fit... maybe great fit...but at PF. Problem is that we have Ju and Larry who deserve the 48 mins worth of mins there unles we want to put them at C which means less for Zu or Black or even Moz.
I have less problem with the Deng contract than the Mozzy deal. Deng, a former all star, has been through the ringer of the NBA and seen it all. He seems to clearly be in the ear of DLO and Ingram. At the very least, he could be a Livingston type player at the 3/4 like Shaun is for GS at the 1/2. If that makes sense...
Mozzy needs to go though. Zu will be ready for big mins next year and Black has a solid place as a backup. Not to mention, Noel is a FA if we were able to free up Mozzy's money.
That Moz deal is looking worse and worse. |
Agree with you about Deng, but we'd have to trade one of Nance or Randle to really get the most out of him. I don't think the FO is going to give up either of those players unless it's a trade for a star.
The irony of this move is that it actually ends the tank  . Zub is outplaying Moz and it's not even close. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26288
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | This will be Luke's first big test. How to manage Moz (more so than Deng IMO) and his possible DNP-CDs.
Will the Lakers move Black so that Zub/Moz takes the minutes (and Nance/Randle take small ball minute)? That way Moz could get 10 mpg. But yeah, pretty disappointing that we dropped this much on Moz. |
Not disappointing at all, because it was done because we needed a better center (and his PnR numbers spoke for themselves) but also that we weren't gonna count on Zubac to be ready so early. Smart approach.
But Zubac surprised everyone with how good he's been so soon, and that is a great sign. Hey if zubac became our starter near the beginning of next season because he made such a leap it's a great thing. I won't be thinking about "oh wow but we paid Moz for 3 more seasons" I'll be thinking "Wow, we drafted a kid that's ready faster than most bigs that aren't 'special' ... what if he's 'special.' instead.
Mozgov was the safe bet to start while Zubac came into his own till he surpassed him as the starter, if Zubac does that 2 years sooner than anyone expected, great for him AND for us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| MJST wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | This will be Luke's first big test. How to manage Moz (more so than Deng IMO) and his possible DNP-CDs.
Will the Lakers move Black so that Zub/Moz takes the minutes (and Nance/Randle take small ball minute)? That way Moz could get 10 mpg. But yeah, pretty disappointing that we dropped this much on Moz. |
Not disappointing at all, because it was done because we needed a better center (and his PnR numbers spoke for themselves) but also that we weren't gonna count on Zubac to be ready so early. Smart approach.
But Zubac surprised everyone with how good he's been so soon, and that is a great sign. Hey if zubac became our starter near the beginning of next season because he made such a leap it's a great thing. I won't be thinking about "oh wow but we paid Moz for 3 more seasons" I'll be thinking "Wow, we drafted a kid that's ready faster than most bigs that aren't 'special' ... what if he's 'special.' instead.
Mozgov was the safe bet to start while Zubac came into his own till he surpassed him as the starter, if Zubac does that 2 years sooner than anyone expected, great for him AND for us. |
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the facts (and current benching DNP-CD in year 1/4) belies that. I agree we needed a veteran center, but as of the 50+ game mark, not good.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Treble Clef
Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23881
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Laker7 wrote: | Lakers definitely showed more energy especially on the defensive end with Moz and Deng on the bench. I hope that continues in games going forward.
We have need to give Zubac minutes for a while and he is definitely contributing off the bench. Good place for him to start rather that throwing him to wolves in the starting line up. |
I think the energy was more about how bad the Knicks are. They've had some games that looked like that this season with Deng and Mozgov playing.
The Lakers only look good when the other team lays an egg. If it happened more consistently or frequently, I'd think they forced the opponent to lay an egg but with how little it happens, it seems a lot more like luck of catching a bad team on a bad night.
The danger of letting Deng and Mozgov fall out of the rotation is that it makes it even harder to move them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LakersRGolden
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 7916
Location: Lake Forest
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Treble Clef wrote: | | Laker7 wrote: | Lakers definitely showed more energy especially on the defensive end with Moz and Deng on the bench. I hope that continues in games going forward.
We have need to give Zubac minutes for a while and he is definitely contributing off the bench. Good place for him to start rather that throwing him to wolves in the starting line up. |
I think the energy was more about how bad the Knicks are. They've had some games that looked like that this season with Deng and Mozgov playing.
The Lakers only look good when the other team lays an egg. If it happened more consistently or frequently, I'd think they forced the opponent to lay an egg but with how little it happens, it seems a lot more like luck of catching a bad team on a bad night.
The danger of letting Deng and Mozgov fall out of the rotation is that it makes it even harder to move them. |
Any time you shake-up a team, they come out with more energy. Just like the first game after firing the coach. I'll reserve judgement for 5 or 6 games. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Baron Von Humongous
Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 32979
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | MJST wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | This will be Luke's first big test. How to manage Moz (more so than Deng IMO) and his possible DNP-CDs.
Will the Lakers move Black so that Zub/Moz takes the minutes (and Nance/Randle take small ball minute)? That way Moz could get 10 mpg. But yeah, pretty disappointing that we dropped this much on Moz. |
Not disappointing at all, because it was done because we needed a better center (and his PnR numbers spoke for themselves) but also that we weren't gonna count on Zubac to be ready so early. Smart approach.
But Zubac surprised everyone with how good he's been so soon, and that is a great sign. Hey if zubac became our starter near the beginning of next season because he made such a leap it's a great thing. I won't be thinking about "oh wow but we paid Moz for 3 more seasons" I'll be thinking "Wow, we drafted a kid that's ready faster than most bigs that aren't 'special' ... what if he's 'special.' instead.
Mozgov was the safe bet to start while Zubac came into his own till he surpassed him as the starter, if Zubac does that 2 years sooner than anyone expected, great for him AND for us. |
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the facts (and current benching DNP-CD in year 1/4) belies that. I agree we needed a veteran center, but as of the 50+ game mark, not good. |
Players even in their 30s can have years where their performances fluctuate, so while it may be unlikely we see improvement from Moz next season, it wouldn't be unprecedented if he does come back better in his second year in the system. That's where continuity can be a real benefit, even if it makes no sense to pay $16M/per for continuity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Lebrons
Star Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 4778
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | dcarter4kobe wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | governator wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | This will be Luke's first big test. How to manage Moz (more so than Deng IMO) and his possible DNP-CDs.
Will the Lakers move Black so that Zub/Moz takes the minutes (and Nance/Randle take small ball minute)? That way Moz could get 10 mpg. But yeah, pretty disappointing that we dropped this much on Moz. |
Big contract smooths the DNP-CDs, who knows, maybe it was discussed during contract negotiation that this might happen and that's why the price was high |
With Deng I'm pretty sure he knew that Ingram would take over one day. Moz? Pretty sure he thought he'd be manning the starting spot for a few years. |
Probably what went into that brief convo he had with Luke before signing. Moz didn't want a repeat of what happened last year with the Cavs again.
But reality is the NBA is passing the Mozgov types by and his production has fallen off. At least he was able to get paid from his POV. He would be lucky to get the MLE if he was a FA after this season. |
You know I wasn't happy about it, but it's beating a dead horse. I'm more interested looking forward, what Luke will do with this situation. |
Deng and Mozgov we're brought in for leadership, if I got one whiff of bad attitude from either (which I feel like Deng gave off in his comments), I'd be pissed. Take your 64 and 72 million, shut up, and be the biggest cheerleader for the young guys.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildchild027
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Posts: 3846
Location: A-T-L-A-N-T-A
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| yinoma2001 wrote: | | The saving grace...i.e. the way I'm coping with this, is their replacements (Ingram and Zub) are going to be on rookie (and cheap) deals for basically the same time period as their large contracts. |
Yeah, that's the only way to look at it without getting mad. I think he has one more year with the team. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildchild027
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Posts: 3846
Location: A-T-L-A-N-T-A
|
| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| It wasn't just the energy, the team played faster. Having Ingram as someone who can bring the ball up the court will allow Russell to play more off the ball. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mhan00
Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32055
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
| av3773 wrote: | I'm still fine with the signings....we didn't know how fast the younger guys were going to develop and adding 2 solid vets to the locker room was a good idea.
Sure in hindsight we can now see the younger guys are likely going to move into the starting spots sooner than later, but it was hard to know going in, especially for a player like Zubac.
I also don't see their benching being a big issue. Why not rest these older guys, bring them in against the opposing bench, might as well keep their mileage down this year. In the summer they'll still push BI and Zubac for taking the leading roles. Year 3 and 4 sure we're eating that a bit, but it is what it is.
With that said if you could trade either before those deals expire you do it, but I still don't see it as the worst thing |
People keep trying to use hindsight to defend the signings, but the Mozgov signing was pretty much universally panned as horrible from the moment it was announced, not just on LG but also in the media. After the horrified reactions, some people tried to try to rationalize it into seeming not as bad as it might seem to try to mitigate the horror, but so far the reality has been much worse.
The Deng signing got a bit more support but was also questioned quite a lot by many on LG since many people knew his best production in recent years was at the 4, which we seemed to be loaded at, and his play at the 3, which we presumably had signed him for, had been mediocre, at best.
The lack of production for the money paid wasn't a surprise and it wasn't something that only became obvious in hindsight. Many people were calling the contracts egregious the moment they became public knowledge, mainly for the length of said contracts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
av3773
Star Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 3751
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's a little bit of re-revisionist history.
The signing was talked about a lot, especially because it was one of the first big FA signings by any team, and it did look ludicrous.....but then you have to look at the signing of all the other big men who are in the same general category as Moz, very similar deals across the board.
The lakers basically paid the going rate, which because of the infusion of cash looked bonkers, but in context it's pretty much on par with what other teams were paying for similar players. We probably over paid a bit compared to some of those deals, which was going to need to happen for the Lakers to land FA on an unproven team that is clearly building around young talent.
| mhan00 wrote: | | av3773 wrote: | I'm still fine with the signings....we didn't know how fast the younger guys were going to develop and adding 2 solid vets to the locker room was a good idea.
Sure in hindsight we can now see the younger guys are likely going to move into the starting spots sooner than later, but it was hard to know going in, especially for a player like Zubac.
I also don't see their benching being a big issue. Why not rest these older guys, bring them in against the opposing bench, might as well keep their mileage down this year. In the summer they'll still push BI and Zubac for taking the leading roles. Year 3 and 4 sure we're eating that a bit, but it is what it is.
With that said if you could trade either before those deals expire you do it, but I still don't see it as the worst thing |
People keep trying to use hindsight to defend the signings, but the Mozgov signing was pretty much universally panned as horrible from the moment it was announced, not just on LG but also in the media. After the horrified reactions, some people tried to try to rationalize it into seeming not as bad as it might seem to try to mitigate the horror, but so far the reality has been much worse.
The Deng signing got a bit more support but was also questioned quite a lot by many on LG since many people knew his best production in recent years was at the 4, which we seemed to be loaded at, and his play at the 3, which we presumably had signed him for, had been mediocre, at best.
The lack of production for the money paid wasn't a surprise and it wasn't something that only became obvious in hindsight. Many people were calling the contracts egregious the moment they became public knowledge, mainly for the length of said contracts. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daphanabe
Star Player
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 2768
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| So much 'fooling yourself' happening in this thread lately. It was a horrible contract then, and it's even worse now. It's crazy how many people are still trying to justify these contracts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
55
Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 12092
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Another thread crying about the contracts? Yikes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bard207
Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 7713
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
There are teams that have sharp people planning a direction and executing the plan.
Grunfeld (Mahinmi) and Phil (Noah) aren't the executives that Mitch & Jim should be trying to keep up with. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
