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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:19 am Post subject: |
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frank70 wrote: | At least i am not seeing a franchise player at the moment. Not talking about Curry, Durant or even Lebron caliber. I see no Paul George or Chris Paul or Griffin on the team. And these are guys who win nothing in this league. And we probably don't have even one of this caliber down the line.
I think Ingram and Russell will be good NBA players when all is said and done, maybe even way above average. But it won't be enough, probably, to win anything. But that is the fate a lot of teams have.
Randle, Clarkson or Nance are role players, not more. They lack the smarts (Randle, Clarkson) or the skill (Nance) to be a 1st or 2nd option on a good team. Zubac could become a very servicable Center. But an all-star? Maybe. For a 19-year old he has a very good foundation. He has to improve athletically (Jumping, mobility, strength). If he can do that, he will be a very good player.
I would look and see what i can get for a package of Randle, Clarkson and a 1st (out of a Lou Williams trade?). Maybe we could get a pick in the Top 6-10 for that package. |
PG13/Draymond/Butler didn't look like stars at comparable ages either. You think their respective teams are glad they didn't let them go? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Ziggy Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 12712
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | LakerLogic wrote: | One thing is for sure, we don't have a superstar on this team. |
Top 10 players are pretty rare. |
I heard there's only 10 of them! |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:21 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | In my humble opinion, the Lakers are actually close to having a competing team. But they need a star player. In addition, and sadly, both Randle and (especially) Russel will never develop into anything this Lakers team needs, and should be packaged and traded. |
This is the kind of short sightedness that is frustrating to read. So you want to get rid of them, yet you think so low of them? What do you expect to get in return that's better? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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smoothazsilk Starting Rotation
Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 826
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | In my humble opinion, the Lakers are actually close to having a competing team. But they need a star player. In addition, and sadly, both Randle and (especially) Russel will never develop into anything this Lakers team needs, and should be packaged and traded. |
This is the kind of short sightedness that is frustrating to read. So you want to get rid of them, yet you think so low of them? What do you expect to get in return that's better? |
better basketball players for one. More complete basketball players. Lakers need a leader and Russell and Randle are not it. Really need a PG |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: |
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smoothazsilk wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | In my humble opinion, the Lakers are actually close to having a competing team. But they need a star player. In addition, and sadly, both Randle and (especially) Russel will never develop into anything this Lakers team needs, and should be packaged and traded. |
This is the kind of short sightedness that is frustrating to read. So you want to get rid of them, yet you think so low of them? What do you expect to get in return that's better? |
better basketball players for one. More complete basketball players. Lakers need a leader and Russell and Randle are not it. Really need a PG |
So you think DLO/Jules are so bad they should be traded, yet you think we will get "better basketball players" in return for players that you think are bad? _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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rogers49 Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 1182
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: |
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See how The Vertical's Bobby Marks valued our team:
LOS ANGELES LAKERS
Player Value
1. Julius Randle Top Starter
2. *Brandon Ingram Key reserve/development
3. *D’Angelo Russell Key reserve/development
4. Jordan Clarkson Key reserve
5. Lou Williams Key reserve
6. *Luol Deng Rotation
7. Ivica Zubac Rotation/development
8. *Nick Young Rotation
9. *Timofey Mozgov Rotation
10. *Larry Nance Jr. Rotation
11. Tarik Black Rotation
12. Thomas Robinson Roster
13. Metta World Peace Roster
14. Jose Calderon Roster
15. Marcelo Huertas Roster
*Has started during the season but best suited coming off the bench for a team competing for a playoff spot.
According to Marks, we only have:
- no all-nba or all-star player
- no franchise player
- no core player
- only one true stater quality player
- four key reserves quality player, only two of which still in development
- six rotation quality player, only one of which still in development
- four roster fillers
All of our starters, except Randle, are better suited as bench in a playoff (playoff only, not contender) team.
Thoughts? |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:40 am Post subject: |
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The fact Marks has Randle as #1... _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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frank70 Sixth Man
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 Posts: 74
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:45 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | frank70 wrote: | At least i am not seeing a franchise player at the moment. Not talking about Curry, Durant or even Lebron caliber. I see no Paul George or Chris Paul or Griffin on the team. And these are guys who win nothing in this league. And we probably don't have even one of this caliber down the line.
I think Ingram and Russell will be good NBA players when all is said and done, maybe even way above average. But it won't be enough, probably, to win anything. But that is the fate a lot of teams have.
Randle, Clarkson or Nance are role players, not more. They lack the smarts (Randle, Clarkson) or the skill (Nance) to be a 1st or 2nd option on a good team. Zubac could become a very servicable Center. But an all-star? Maybe. For a 19-year old he has a very good foundation. He has to improve athletically (Jumping, mobility, strength). If he can do that, he will be a very good player.
I would look and see what i can get for a package of Randle, Clarkson and a 1st (out of a Lou Williams trade?). Maybe we could get a pick in the Top 6-10 for that package. |
PG13/Draymond/Butler didn't look like stars at comparable ages either. You think their respective teams are glad they didn't let them go? |
That's right. Do you think any of our young players develop into a PG13 or Draymond? I am simply not sure. Randle lacks the IQ, Russell lacks athleticism and Ingram shooting is very concerning.
I haven't said that they won't get there - it's still early. I wanted to say that the Lakers FO has to decide if they think, that they will get there. And if they don't think so, they should start to move some of them. If we wait too long to make those decisions, the value or our guys plummets.
We need at least two players of the class of a PG13 to have a chance to win a championship (Indiana goes nowhere with PG13). One should come out of our draft picks and then down the road, maybe one out of a trade or better out of FA. And winning a ship is the only goal - not buliding a 45 win team, that has no shot for a championship. |
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rogers49 Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 1182
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:51 am Post subject: |
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JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Wino wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | It hasn't even been two seasons. |
I know what you say and have been saying the same but dang, every good rookie like Magic, Scott, Cooper, Kobe, Worthy, etc. showed way more concrete success by this point in their careers.
We are one of the worst two teams in the league man, and nobody is showing any sign of being the guy who can pull us out of this dump. Magic was winning rings in his rookie season and granted he had a good team around him, but he shined. He dominated the final game and was a solid pro all year long. None of these guys are showing that.
Absolutely zero leadership but even worse, I question their souls and their commitment to this team. All I see are silly bro antics and smiling like nothing matters. They need a gut check and if they don't see that, then move them out. | Ha - I remember when Magic was the target of that very criticism.
Magic and Kobe are ridiculous standards of comparison, but Russell's performance stands up to the other 3:
When Worthy was in his second year at 22 he averaged 14.5P 6.3R 2.5A
Scott at 22 averaged 10.6P 2.4A 2.2R and shot 23.5% from 3. Started 49 games his rookie year and in 1637 minutes he made 8 three point baskets.
For the year.
Michael Cooper was a late bloomer and stats don't reflect Coop's defensive prowess. but Coop played 7 minutes as a 22 year old rookie.
In his first 5 years dude made 16 3s.
It takes time, fellas,
Just like it did for the players we remember so fondly.
Patience. |
You conveniently forgot to say that Worthy, Scott and Cooper did it in a championship team and playing significant roles in it, while DLO and company make these numbers in NBA 2nd worst team and some of it in blowouts garbage time. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:51 am Post subject: |
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frank70 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | frank70 wrote: | At least i am not seeing a franchise player at the moment. Not talking about Curry, Durant or even Lebron caliber. I see no Paul George or Chris Paul or Griffin on the team. And these are guys who win nothing in this league. And we probably don't have even one of this caliber down the line.
I think Ingram and Russell will be good NBA players when all is said and done, maybe even way above average. But it won't be enough, probably, to win anything. But that is the fate a lot of teams have.
Randle, Clarkson or Nance are role players, not more. They lack the smarts (Randle, Clarkson) or the skill (Nance) to be a 1st or 2nd option on a good team. Zubac could become a very servicable Center. But an all-star? Maybe. For a 19-year old he has a very good foundation. He has to improve athletically (Jumping, mobility, strength). If he can do that, he will be a very good player.
I would look and see what i can get for a package of Randle, Clarkson and a 1st (out of a Lou Williams trade?). Maybe we could get a pick in the Top 6-10 for that package. |
PG13/Draymond/Butler didn't look like stars at comparable ages either. You think their respective teams are glad they didn't let them go? |
That's right. Do you think any of our young players develop into a PG13 or Draymond? I am simply not sure. Randle lacks the IQ, Russell lacks athleticism and Ingram shooting is very concerning.
I haven't said that they won't get there - it's still early. I wanted to say that the Lakers FO has to decide if they think, that they will get there. And if they don't think so, they should start to move some of them. If we wait too long to make those decisions, the value or our guys plummets.
We need at least two players of the class of a PG13 to have a chance to win a championship (Indiana goes nowhere with PG13). One should come out of our draft picks and then down the road, maybe one out of a trade or better out of FA. And winning a ship is the only goal - not buliding a 45 win team, that has no shot for a championship. |
Of the core we have, I am most sanguine on DLO, Ingram, Zubac.
I think Black/JC/Nance are pretty much what we know.
Jules, just not sure. His off ball defense, and transition defense just infuriate me. He's our tone-setter as an alpha personality and it just seems he's either lost or doesn't care about that end of the ball. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:56 am Post subject: |
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We are close. Wolves should worry though. On paper they were said to be elite. 76ers, even suns who have better talent surrounding their youth. Dlo, bi, Zubac, nance only real building blocks. Everyone else should be on table for picks or players. |
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rogers49 Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 1182
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:19 am Post subject: |
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Halflife wrote: | We are close. Wolves should worry though. On paper they were said to be elite. 76ers, even suns who have better talent surrounding their youth. Dlo, bi, Zubac, nance only real building blocks. Everyone else should be on table for picks or players. |
Swap Dlo for Rubio and Randle for Gallinari
Keep Young and Williams along with Black.
You have an instant playoff team, if not better.
Rubio - Williams
Young - Clarkson
Gallinari - Ingram
Nance - Black
Zubac - FA or 1st round pick |
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fontana3d Star Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2013 Posts: 3794
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:23 am Post subject: |
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rogers49 wrote: | Halflife wrote: | We are close. Wolves should worry though. On paper they were said to be elite. 76ers, even suns who have better talent surrounding their youth. Dlo, bi, Zubac, nance only real building blocks. Everyone else should be on table for picks or players. |
Swap Dlo for Rubio and Randle for Gallinari
Keep Young and Williams along with Black.
You have an instant playoff team, if not better.
Rubio - Williams
Young - Clarkson
Gallinari - Ingram
Nance - Black
Zubac - FA or 1st round pick |
And then run over by the Warriors in the playoffs. Give it up Lou is a goner, and maybe Nick and Black too. Right they are valuing on keeping that pick away from the Sixers than get our behinds handed to us by Golden State. Also Gallinari is a free agent this summer so that does us no good. So unless an all star comes our way no of the youth moves we're not selling low. |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: |
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I think that Russell's the only guy we have who could become a star down the road. Randle has a lot of work to do on certain things before I put him in that conversation, but he could get there. People are absolutely kidding themselves about Brandon Ingram. But even then, I think the fit is suspect and perhaps guys on the team are getting comfortable thinking about the future?
This young core isn't going too far. We're a lot closer to being current Orlando than we are the old OKC team, do we have a young Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook?
I think we need a trade to shake this up, if anything. Bums me out, but lets be realistic. If the front office comes to this conclusion, then I just hope to god they don't fall in love with our blue collar types. _________________ Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz
Last edited by justsomelakerfan on Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: |
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rogers49 wrote: | Halflife wrote: | We are close. Wolves should worry though. On paper they were said to be elite. 76ers, even suns who have better talent surrounding their youth. Dlo, bi, Zubac, nance only real building blocks. Everyone else should be on table for picks or players. |
Swap Dlo for Rubio and Randle for Gallinari
Keep Young and Williams along with Black.
You have an instant playoff team, if not better.
Rubio - Williams
Young - Clarkson
Gallinari - Ingram
Nance - Black
Zubac - FA or 1st round pick |
That's not a playoff team. Not even close. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: |
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rogers49 wrote: | Halflife wrote: | We are close. Wolves should worry though. On paper they were said to be elite. 76ers, even suns who have better talent surrounding their youth. Dlo, bi, Zubac, nance only real building blocks. Everyone else should be on table for picks or players. |
Swap Dlo for Rubio and Randle for Gallinari
Keep Young and Williams along with Black.
You have an instant playoff team, if not better.
Rubio - Williams
Young - Clarkson
Gallinari - Ingram
Nance - Black
Zubac - FA or 1st round pick |
Good lord no. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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55 Franchise Player
Joined: 04 Jan 2008 Posts: 12092
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:30 am Post subject: |
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fontana3d wrote: | And then run over by the Warriors in the playoffs. |
fontana3d wrote: | Also I would rather be in the cellar than to deal with that super team in Oakland. |
Some of you guys need to get a dog. But for you, not just any dog. A really big dog with a loud bark... and teeth. |
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justsomelakerfan Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Jul 2016 Posts: 10939
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:33 am Post subject: |
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I hope the front office realizes that our roster construct is very poor. I've been lamenting this all season, and now it's really starting to get exposed. _________________ Austin Reaves
Tweeter: @sarah_dotbiz |
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nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:35 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | In my humble opinion, the Lakers are actually close to having a competing team. But they need a star player. In addition, and sadly, both Randle and (especially) Russel will never develop into anything this Lakers team needs, and should be packaged and traded. |
This is the kind of short sightedness that is frustrating to read. So you want to get rid of them, yet you think so low of them? What do you expect to get in return that's better? |
If you think they are going to be superstars you keep theme, but if you don't believe they are going to be franchise players you have to trade them while there is doubt about their ceilings, after that someone like Julius may have the same value as Brandon Bass ... or less taking into account his defense and efficiency. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: |
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justsomelakerfan wrote: | I hope the front office realizes that our roster construct is very poor. I've been lamenting this all season, and now it's really starting to get exposed. |
1. We have too many guards. 96 minutes divided equally by 4 players (2 who are over age 30) is not sustainable.
2. Swaggy should in theory play more SF, but can't b/c logjam with Ingram/Deng.
3. Deng should play more PF, but can't b/c logjam with Jules/Nance.
4. Nance should play more small ball C, but can't b/c Black/Zub/Moz. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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av3773 Star Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 3750
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: |
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There's a lot of different ways this can play out....and the different approaches probably have examples of both working and not working
You could keep tanking trying to get the highest picks you can ala 76ers in the hopes of landing a franchise player....which right now looks like it may be the case if Joel can stay healthy over time and Simmons is as good as advertised
You can continue to develop and groom players over time more like the spurs and then put yourself in a situation where even if one isn't "star" player, the talent is good enough to attract a real star in FA or you are able to trade a combination for bringing in a star without gutting the whole team
Obviously there are other approaches as well but who knows how the lakers will handle things. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:40 am Post subject: |
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nash wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | In my humble opinion, the Lakers are actually close to having a competing team. But they need a star player. In addition, and sadly, both Randle and (especially) Russel will never develop into anything this Lakers team needs, and should be packaged and traded. |
This is the kind of short sightedness that is frustrating to read. So you want to get rid of them, yet you think so low of them? What do you expect to get in return that's better? |
If you think they are going to be superstars you keep theme, but if you don't believe they are going to be franchise players you have to trade them while there is doubt about their ceilings, after that someone like Julius may have the same value as Brandon Bass ... or less taking into account his defense and efficiency. |
The irony is that some of the names bandied (Butler, PG13) were nowhere near being identified as stars their first few years. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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fontana3d Star Player
Joined: 22 Mar 2013 Posts: 3794
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:50 am Post subject: |
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55 wrote: | fontana3d wrote: | And then run over by the Warriors in the playoffs. |
fontana3d wrote: | Also I would rather be in the cellar than to deal with that super team in Oakland. |
Some of you guys need to get a dog. But for you, not just any dog. A really big dog with a loud bark... and teeth. |
Well I don't want to be a 8th seeded team every year. |
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nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:51 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | nash wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | Quote: | In my humble opinion, the Lakers are actually close to having a competing team. But they need a star player. In addition, and sadly, both Randle and (especially) Russel will never develop into anything this Lakers team needs, and should be packaged and traded. |
This is the kind of short sightedness that is frustrating to read. So you want to get rid of them, yet you think so low of them? What do you expect to get in return that's better? |
If you think they are going to be superstars you keep theme, but if you don't believe they are going to be franchise players you have to trade them while there is doubt about their ceilings, after that someone like Julius may have the same value as Brandon Bass ... or less taking into account his defense and efficiency. |
The irony is that some of the names bandied (Butler, PG13) were nowhere near being identified as stars their first few years. |
Further irony is that we can say the same about Xavier Henry, Wesley Johnson so many other guys that would make a list of Butler, PG13, Harden and others look like exception to the rule. But again, it is about the perception a coaching staff that have the players to work every day alongside the front office may have about what kind of player one will be in his prime. You don't trade someone you believe is going to be a franchise player. |
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rogers49 Star Player
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 1182
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Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: |
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fontana3d wrote: | 55 wrote: | fontana3d wrote: | And then run over by the Warriors in the playoffs. |
fontana3d wrote: | Also I would rather be in the cellar than to deal with that super team in Oakland. |
Some of you guys need to get a dog. But for you, not just any dog. A really big dog with a loud bark... and teeth. |
Well I don't want to be a 8th seeded team every year. |
Because, as we all know, is better to be a bottom-dweller, ten-year-no-playoff, all NBA worst team. |
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