Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35855 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:17 pm Post subject: How good is Isaiah Thomas?
He's averaging 29.8 PPG on 46.8% from the field to go along with 6.4 assists... But just how good is he, really? I've always thought of him as an empty stats chucker who plays no defense, but that isn't supported by his field goal percentage or the Celtics' record (not the chucker part, at least).
Where does he rank? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: How good is Isaiah Thomas?
CandyCanes wrote:
He's averaging 29.8 PPG on 46.8% from the field to go along with 6.4 assists... But just how good is he, really? I've always thought of him as an empty stats chucker who plays no defense, but that isn't supported by his field goal percentage or the Celtics' record (not the chucker part, at least).
Where does he rank?
I'm not sure I'm ready to recognize him as a star, but 31.1 PPG per 36 minutes is certainly an elite level of scoring, esp. on a competitive team ... and then the fact that he's only 5'9" blows my mind, too. Advanced defensive stats suggest he's weak on that end, but I don't know how much it matters given the offense he brings to the table ... I'd probably have him in the Top 12 - 18 this season, but his MVP finish will be much higher.
2016/2017
NBA player: Top 15
MVP race: Top 8
(In the MVP race, I wouldn't put him ahead of Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi, LeBron, Durant and maybe one or two others ...)
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:29 am Post subject: Re: How good is Isaiah Thomas?
the association wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
He's averaging 29.8 PPG on 46.8% from the field to go along with 6.4 assists... But just how good is he, really? I've always thought of him as an empty stats chucker who plays no defense, but that isn't supported by his field goal percentage or the Celtics' record (not the chucker part, at least).
Where does he rank?
I'm not sure I'm ready to recognize him as a star, but 31.1 PPG per 36 minutes is certainly an elite level of scoring, esp. on a competitive team ... and then the fact that he's only 5'9" blows my mind, too. Advanced defensive stats suggest he's weak on that end, but I don't know how much it matters given the offense he brings to the table ... I'd probably have him in the Top 12 - 18 this season, but his MVP finish will be much higher.
2016/2017
NBA player: Top 15
MVP race: Top 8
(In the MVP race, I wouldn't put him ahead of Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi, LeBron, Durant and maybe one or two others ...)
I can't wrap my head around the fact that he's 5'9". I'm only a tick shorter and when my 6'5" buddy guards me, I can't even get a shot off...PERIOD! I get that he's the fraction of a 1-percentile in terms of athleticism/skil but so the guys he's are going up against! _________________ KOBE
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:44 am Post subject: Re: How good is Isaiah Thomas?
the association wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
He's averaging 29.8 PPG on 46.8% from the field to go along with 6.4 assists... But just how good is he, really? I've always thought of him as an empty stats chucker who plays no defense, but that isn't supported by his field goal percentage or the Celtics' record (not the chucker part, at least).
Where does he rank?
I'm not sure I'm ready to recognize him as a star, but 31.1 PPG per 36 minutes is certainly an elite level of scoring, esp. on a competitive team ... and then the fact that he's only 5'9" blows my mind, too. Advanced defensive stats suggest he's weak on that end, but I don't know how much it matters given the offense he brings to the table ... I'd probably have him in the Top 12 - 18 this season, but his MVP finish will be much higher.
2016/2017
NBA player: Top 15
MVP race: Top 8
(In the MVP race, I wouldn't put him ahead of Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi, LeBron, Durant and maybe one or two others ...)
By most accounts, the advanced stats say he's the worst player in the NBA on the defensive side of the ball.
Does his offense still make up for it? Yeah, probably.
But yeah, "weak" defensively is a bit of an understatement.
I wouldn't put him in the top 25. His defense isn't just bad. It's catastrophically bad. RPM ranks him last in the NBA in defense. Think about that. He is 448th out of 448. His DRPM is -4.38. #447 (Dennis Schroder) is -3.54. Derrick Freaking Rose is -3.04. Lou Williams is -2.07. James Freaking Harden is -1.42. Thomas makes those guys look like all-defense candidates.
Give the Celtics credit -- they have found a way to take advantage of Thomas' scoring while withstanding his horrific defense. He'll probably get some MVP votes just because voters are impressed with scoring. But there are two ends to a basketball court.
Sure. But what about being elite on one end and being the worst in the league on the other end? That makes you better than an average player, but does it make you one of the top players in the league?
Sure. But what about being elite on one end and being the worst in the league on the other end? That makes you better than an average player, but does it make you one of the top players in the league?
Sure. But what about being elite on one end and being the worst in the league on the other end? That makes you better than an average player, but does it make you one of the top players in the league?
I think it makes you 1-dimensional, but doesn't necessarily mean you can't be one of the top players in the league. Dennis Rodman was a top player in his prime. Reggie Miller was a top player in his prime as well. Neither could play strong on the other end.
I wouldn't put him in the top 25. His defense isn't just bad. It's catastrophically bad. RPM ranks him last in the NBA in defense. Think about that. He is 448th out of 448. His DRPM is -4.38. #447 (Dennis Schroder) is -3.54. Derrick Freaking Rose is -3.04. Lou Williams is -2.07. James Freaking Harden is -1.42. Thomas makes those guys look like all-defense candidates.
Give the Celtics credit -- they have found a way to take advantage of Thomas' scoring while withstanding his horrific defense. He'll probably get some MVP votes just because voters are impressed with scoring. But there are two ends to a basketball court.
For what it's worth, Tox has already broken down why DRPM is horrific of a stat. Iirc, even height is a factor. _________________ KOBE
Sure. But what about being elite on one end and being the worst in the league on the other end? That makes you better than an average player, but does it make you one of the top players in the league?
I think it makes you 1-dimensional, but doesn't necessarily mean you can't be one of the top players in the league. Dennis Rodman was a top player in his prime. Reggie Miller was a top player in his prime as well. Neither could play strong on the other end.
Sure. You can be a specialist, which is essentially what both Rodman and Miller were. However, I don't think there was ever a time when I would have considered Rodman or Miller to be one of the top players in the league. Miller came closer, being picked all-NBA third team. I could see Thomas getting to that level, or maybe a little higher due to the Boston hype.
For what it's worth, Tox has already broken down why DRPM is horrific of a stat. Iirc, even height is a factor.
I haven't see what Tox wrote. DRPM is far and away the best publicly available defensive metric I've seen. It is the only one where the results match the real world with a reasonable degree of consistency. The box score based defensive stats are horrible.
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: How good is Isaiah Thomas?
jonnybravo wrote:
the association wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
He's averaging 29.8 PPG on 46.8% from the field to go along with 6.4 assists... But just how good is he, really? I've always thought of him as an empty stats chucker who plays no defense, but that isn't supported by his field goal percentage or the Celtics' record (not the chucker part, at least).
Where does he rank?
I'm not sure I'm ready to recognize him as a star, but 31.1 PPG per 36 minutes is certainly an elite level of scoring, esp. on a competitive team ... and then the fact that he's only 5'9" blows my mind, too. Advanced defensive stats suggest he's weak on that end, but I don't know how much it matters given the offense he brings to the table ... I'd probably have him in the Top 12 - 18 this season, but his MVP finish will be much higher.
2016/2017
NBA player: Top 15
MVP race: Top 8
(In the MVP race, I wouldn't put him ahead of Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi, LeBron, Durant and maybe one or two others ...)
I can't wrap my head around the fact that he's 5'9". I'm only a tick shorter and when my 6'5" buddy guards me, I can't even get a shot off...PERIOD! I get that he's the fraction of a 1-percentile in terms of athleticism/skil but so the guys he's are going up against!
He's the definition of will, the things he's accomplised was driven behind motivation, props to Thomas for proving the doubters wrong.
Joined: 25 Jul 2013 Posts: 9577 Location: Salem, OR
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:32 pm Post subject:
Probably in my top 5 MVP race, with Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi, and Durant. I'm surprised that a dude his size can score the ball so efficiently on a high volume of shots: 62.8% TS%. I'd argue that this is a greater offensive season than AI ever produced.
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31924 Location: Anaheim, CA
Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:15 pm Post subject:
^^
It would be downright ludicrous to place Thomas ahead of LeBron in the MVP balloting. I also think Kawhi isn't getting enough consideration. He's flirting with a 50/40/90 season as the #1 option on a 43-13 team, and is obviously one of the best defensive wings in the league, too. (I think the stats suggest that he isn't quite as dominant on that end this season, but I suspect that he will ramp that up in the playoffs.)
I wouldn't put him in the top 25. His defense isn't just bad. It's catastrophically bad. RPM ranks him last in the NBA in defense. Think about that. He is 448th out of 448. His DRPM is -4.38. #447 (Dennis Schroder) is -3.54. Derrick Freaking Rose is -3.04. Lou Williams is -2.07. James Freaking Harden is -1.42. Thomas makes those guys look like all-defense candidates.
Give the Celtics credit -- they have found a way to take advantage of Thomas' scoring while withstanding his horrific defense. He'll probably get some MVP votes just because voters are impressed with scoring. But there are two ends to a basketball court.
For what it's worth, Tox has already broken down why DRPM is horrific of a stat. Iirc, even height is a factor.
It's not a great stat for sure but I wouldn't call it horrific. I'd call DWS and DBPM horrific and DRPM "okay."
But yeah, basically every single defensive analysis/ stat agrees Isaiah is a horrendously bad defender, so in this case pointing to his DRPM value is probably fair.
Sure. But what about being elite on one end and being the worst in the league on the other end? That makes you better than an average player, but does it make you one of the top players in the league?
I think it makes you 1-dimensional, but doesn't necessarily mean you can't be one of the top players in the league. Dennis Rodman was a top player in his prime. Reggie Miller was a top player in his prime as well. Neither could play strong on the other end.
Sure. You can be a specialist, which is essentially what both Rodman and Miller were. However, I don't think there was ever a time when I would have considered Rodman or Miller to be one of the top players in the league. Miller came closer, being picked all-NBA third team. I could see Thomas getting to that level, or maybe a little higher due to the Boston hype.
But when all was said and done, both Rodman and Miller are considered to be top 20 players from their era. Not saying Thomas will be that.
Sure. But what about being elite on one end and being the worst in the league on the other end? That makes you better than an average player, but does it make you one of the top players in the league?
I think it makes you 1-dimensional, but doesn't necessarily mean you can't be one of the top players in the league. Dennis Rodman was a top player in his prime. Reggie Miller was a top player in his prime as well. Neither could play strong on the other end.
Sure. You can be a specialist, which is essentially what both Rodman and Miller were. However, I don't think there was ever a time when I would have considered Rodman or Miller to be one of the top players in the league. Miller came closer, being picked all-NBA third team. I could see Thomas getting to that level, or maybe a little higher due to the Boston hype.
But when all was said and done, both Rodman and Miller are considered to be top 20 players from their era. Not saying Thomas will be that.
I can go with that, but on the other hand I don't know that top 20 is that tough a standard, even for an era. When you get to about #15, the quality starts dropping fast.
Sure. But what about being elite on one end and being the worst in the league on the other end? That makes you better than an average player, but does it make you one of the top players in the league?
Nash won MVP 2 yrs
Steph is a good defender at his position whether people want to admit it or not. Its extremely rare for a PG to be a game changing force, they are usually too small.
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