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ringfinger
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 Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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People sure do love to try to find one reason for something.
Most of the time, it's a combination of factors. |
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LakersRGolden
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 7924
Location: Lake Forest
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Byron Scott is the Soul sucker that takes everyone down around him. Poisoned our own players. Chased off FA's. Just absolutely zero positives from him. Bad hire. |
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VVX24
Sixth Man
Joined: 16 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of CP3. It's amazing how DLO gets 10x more coverage and national attention than CP3.
The difference between being a Laker and a Clipper. He's become a nobody. |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | we would have had a potential lineup of :
Howard (Bynum trade)
D.West (free agent)
Metta
Kobe
CP3 (VETOed Trade)
I would think this could have made a major difference in the history of the franchise and NBA since 2011 |
anyone saying otherwise is just someone that was on the "fire jim" or "fire mitch" bandwagon. they never really gave serious thought to how much the nixed deal destroyed the lakers present back then and their future til now. People try to say well..so...that was years ago by now things should have changed. I ask. How so. No one ever has that answer. |
I know. I do my best to keep a positive outlook and hope for the best in the future, but why do I have to ignore how severe that event was? I don't remember the details, but just to compare how teams and the league overall reacts to big moves...remember when pau came here out of the blue? Nobody expected that, and i forgot what the spurs did, but they definitely freaked out and did some major moves almost immediately after, and maybe a couple other teams also. It was like, oh s---, now pau is with kobe...and odom and bynum, oh damn. |
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yohanone
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Posts: 54
Location: Riverside County
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Jeanie just unleashed her emotions towards Jim and Mitch slacking off on making any of the right moves to help contribute to our team immediately on the trade deadline (D-Cousins). But I find this questionable considering that we want our pick.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Actually, looking back on it now, I think the CP3 trade would have been the first in a series of failed moves. Kobe and Paul were never going to coexist. I know some people think otherwise, but there's only one basketball allowed on the court at a time. That trade would have been a disappointment, just like the later Howard and Nash moves. Paul would probably be gone by now anyway. |
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Wino
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Actually, looking back on it now, I think the CP3 trade would have been the first in a series of failed moves. Kobe and Paul were never going to coexist. I know some people think otherwise, but there's only one basketball allowed on the court at a time. That trade would have been a disappointment, just like the later Howard and Nash moves. Paul would probably be gone by now anyway. |
OR Kobe may have seen it as an opportunity to extend his career, let CP3 be the main ball handler and become a true SG, pop and shoot, etc
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Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain |
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Ujah's Goat
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Joined: 01 Jun 2016
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Location: Babylon
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | Ujah's Goat wrote: | | Mods please lock. |
why?? |
It's living in the past while beating a horse that's long dead. Not really meaningful discussion. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Actually, looking back on it now, I think the CP3 trade would have been the first in a series of failed moves. Kobe and Paul were never going to coexist. I know some people think otherwise, but there's only one basketball allowed on the court at a time. That trade would have been a disappointment, just like the later Howard and Nash moves. Paul would probably be gone by now anyway. |
OR Kobe may have seen it as an opportunity to extend his career, let CP3 be the main ball handler and become a true SG, pop and shoot, etc |
Possible but unlikely. Never let Sessions nor Nash be the primary ball handler. Kobe has had his greatest success playing on ball with a spot up shooter flanking him in the backcourt.
I just don't see Kobe being ok with being JJ Redick or even Klay Thompson. |
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focus
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:41 am Post subject: |
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No, David Stern is not 'the reason'. However, 'but for' Stern, they probably would not have been fired because they and their actions would not have mattered as much, and the wins would have mitigated any negative evaluation of them. I think they would have had less pressure, and actually had an easier job limiting any downsides to their actions. Probably more confidence in negotiating other deals, and less fans wondering about them. But Stern is not the reason, he's an external apocalypse that they were not skilled enough to navigate out of. Which to me is more about the extent of the apocalypse than say Mitch's failings. (I still think Mitch deserves more tribute around here and in the media than he got - 30 years of Lakers work!).
I agree with a lot of the points about the severity of that veto. I read Larry Coon's comments in some other thread many months ago going through why it was fair of Stern to do what he did. LC is someone I respect a lot like most everyone. (He did lead me to Taco Mesa) That aside, this is about the consequences of that veto, fair or not.
At the time it happened I knew then that day that it was a franchise altering event on the scale of 10 years and legacy. I knew it meant crisis for the whole franchise, and thought we recovered suprise to me with the Nash and Howard pickup (I put a lot of trust in Mitch though for both evaluating Nash's health and Howard's mental makeup - which I know now was mistaken trust). I did not consider the veto's impact on other teams then but see it now.
Kobe and CP3 would have worked. Kobe was looking for someone effective to reduce his load, get him the ball in advantageous positions, move without the ball and just shoot, and help him not have such a load in the 4th quarter both in actual crunch scoring and in actual crunch leadership and just ball handling. Melo even would have worked ok, though he fails on the last one. Kobe did fine in the Olympics with someone else with the ball control duties, and he would have done even better with CP3. His defense might have suffered less. I also think the achilles would have been less likely.
The Lakers would have as a guess 1 ring, possibly 2, and the Lakers org possibly set themselves up for unknowable flexibility for others during this entire nadir period we are in and will continue to go through for at least a few years.
I honestly did NOT think that we would see such depths of losing in any of these seasons or that we would not even see the prospect of competing for years from now. My fear then was that we would not be able to be one of the elite teams for a decade, not that we would be so pathetic as to pray for a mere playoff spot in yet another 3 years. So the depth of its impact should not be underestimated.
I would argue Dr. Buss' passing was the real apocalypse though. I thought his genius foresight also applied to evaluating Jim as the one to take over on the basketball side, but clearly not. I hope Magic primarily has that Dr Buss ember and can rebuild this identity, and that the young Busses have it too as they develop. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Of course what Stern did was fair. He was acting owner of the team. Owners can veto any trade they want. That is the right of a team owner.
Now, whether stern should have been given those rights to begin with is a different story but it happens in other sports too unfortunately. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Actually, looking back on it now, I think the CP3 trade would have been the first in a series of failed moves. Kobe and Paul were never going to coexist. I know some people think otherwise, but there's only one basketball allowed on the court at a time. That trade would have been a disappointment, just like the later Howard and Nash moves. Paul would probably be gone by now anyway. |
Let's assume Kobe still gets hurt and basically only plays two years with Paul. The butterfly effect is always dicey to predict, but maybe if they have a superstar on board they don't feel compelled to signed Kobe to that two-year extension. And maybe our team going forward is Paul and Howard with no Kobe. Who knows? There is a lot of roads in these imaginary alternative universes |
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Cochese
Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 957
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| No. They have no one to blame but themselves. Bad coaching hires, bad free agency, bad contracts, etc. Jim's arrogance didn't help things either. Once the narrative about him being a screw up became the popular opinion, it was only a matter of time before he got fired. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Actually, looking back on it now, I think the CP3 trade would have been the first in a series of failed moves. Kobe and Paul were never going to coexist. I know some people think otherwise, but there's only one basketball allowed on the court at a time. That trade would have been a disappointment, just like the later Howard and Nash moves. Paul would probably be gone by now anyway. |
Let's assume Kobe still gets hurt and basically only plays two years with Paul. The butterfly effect is always dicey to predict, but maybe if they have a superstar on board they don't feel compelled to signed Kobe to that two-year extension. And maybe our team going forward is Paul and Howard with no Kobe. Who knows? There is a lot of roads in these imaginary alternative universes |
That's true, of course. I'm limiting myself to the narrow question of whether Stern's veto was the root cause of the situation that got Kupchak fired and Jim Buss removed. I don't think so, because I think the trade would have been a failure in the context of winning. There would have been some financial benefits in terms of payroll and cap space, but we'll never know how that would have played out.
In my opinion, the root cause was that Jeanie wanted to be in control. It was just a question of when she would have sufficient pretext to make the power play. When none of the moves panned out, and when it became obvious that we were just going to need to wait for the kids to develop, she had all the pretext she needed.
But now she and Magic will be the lightning rods. I hope Magic and Pelinka can pull off a miraculous turnaround, but Laker fans are impatient and not very forgiving. This could get ugly for Jeanie and Magic, and I do not envy the mods if the hotheads on this board start flinging bile at Jeanie.
The Buss family would be well advised to sell. |
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mhan00
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| VVX24 wrote: | Speaking of CP3. It's amazing how DLO gets 10x more coverage and national attention than CP3.
The difference between being a Laker and a Clipper. He's become a nobody. |
This is a joke, right? News on CP3 has been quiet because he's been hurt for the last month. Other than that, he's clearly more relevant to the NBA than DLo right now. Or is that Dlo wearing a CP3 disguise on those nationwide commercials? This week has been the most attention the Lakers have gotten in a while that wasn't just mocking us for being terrible or Barkley lamenting that he's stuck watching us on TNT.
Dlo may get there (I think he will) but right now he's not even a blip on the NBA radar. |
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Goldenwest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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No, it was multiple coaching changes, worst records in Laker history, embarrassing strike outs in free agency, ticket holder complaints, boos at staples, Lakers becoming a bottom dweller and actually something of a joke franchise.
4-5 years of this stuff with no evident light at the end of the tunnel in sight.
That's what did it.
After all, they had Dwight, Pau, and Kobe still at the height of his power and screwed it up by hiring MDA. There's no guarantee they wouldn't have screwed up things even had the Paul trade gone through. This FO was just making alot of poor moves. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | No, David Stern is not 'the reason'. However, 'but for' Stern, they probably would not have been fired because they and their actions would not have mattered as much, and the wins would have mitigated any negative evaluation of them. I think they would have had less pressure, and actually had an easier job limiting any downsides to their actions. Probably more confidence in negotiating other deals, and less fans wondering about them. But Stern is not the reason, he's an external apocalypse that they were not skilled enough to navigate out of. Which to me is more about the extent of the apocalypse than say Mitch's failings. (I still think Mitch deserves more tribute around here and in the media than he got - 30 years of Lakers work!).
I agree with a lot of the points about the severity of that veto. I read Larry Coon's comments in some other thread many months ago going through why it was fair of Stern to do what he did. LC is someone I respect a lot like most everyone. (He did lead me to Taco Mesa) That aside, this is about the consequences of that veto, fair or not.
At the time it happened I knew then that day that it was a franchise altering event on the scale of 10 years and legacy. I knew it meant crisis for the whole franchise, and thought we recovered suprise to me with the Nash and Howard pickup (I put a lot of trust in Mitch though for both evaluating Nash's health and Howard's mental makeup - which I know now was mistaken trust). I did not consider the veto's impact on other teams then but see it now.
Kobe and CP3 would have worked. Kobe was looking for someone effective to reduce his load, get him the ball in advantageous positions, move without the ball and just shoot, and help him not have such a load in the 4th quarter both in actual crunch scoring and in actual crunch leadership and just ball handling. Melo even would have worked ok, though he fails on the last one. Kobe did fine in the Olympics with someone else with the ball control duties, and he would have done even better with CP3. His defense might have suffered less. I also think the achilles would have been less likely.
The Lakers would have as a guess 1 ring, possibly 2, and the Lakers org possibly set themselves up for unknowable flexibility for others during this entire nadir period we are in and will continue to go through for at least a few years.
I honestly did NOT think that we would see such depths of losing in any of these seasons or that we would not even see the prospect of competing for years from now. My fear then was that we would not be able to be one of the elite teams for a decade, not that we would be so pathetic as to pray for a mere playoff spot in yet another 3 years. So the depth of its impact should not be underestimated.
I would argue Dr. Buss' passing was the real apocalypse though. I thought his genius foresight also applied to evaluating Jim as the one to take over on the basketball side, but clearly not. I hope Magic primarily has that Dr Buss ember and can rebuild this identity, and that the young Busses have it too as they develop. |
nice post, great thoughts.
av and ah are making a reDONKulous argument based heavily upon the idea that cp3 and kobe wouldn't work. why they assume this is beyond me.
the rings is a great point. There's a reason why the owners complained, including Mr Cavs...lets look at this...Cavs idiot complains, and lo and behold, instead of kobe and lakers getting a ring, who gets it last year? Cavs! lol. pulled a fast one there. Like, how LA fans can have anything nice to say about that guy, dont start....
and that last point about the dr. yes, unfortunately, that was bad for us. As far as i can tell, the owners really used that as a chance to pillage the laker gold. cuz we had all of it. or half of it literally. a healthy dr. buss would probably be a very different story. The only thing, again, i wonder about that is right before he died, he was vocally in favor of parity and was talking like it would be nice for other teams to have a shot and good for everyone, etc. I've always wondered about that. But that was right before the veto. It's possible he was just saying that so the CBA would be completed with less problems. It was right before the veto, so it's not like he wasn't trying to pull off the heist of the century at the same time. |
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focus
Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2012
Posts: 2526
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | focus wrote: | No, David Stern is not 'the reason'. However, 'but for' Stern, they probably would not have been fired because they and their actions would not have mattered as much, and the wins would have mitigated any negative evaluation of them. I think they would have had less pressure, and actually had an easier job limiting any downsides to their actions. Probably more confidence in negotiating other deals, and less fans wondering about them. But Stern is not the reason, he's an external apocalypse that they were not skilled enough to navigate out of. Which to me is more about the extent of the apocalypse than say Mitch's failings. (I still think Mitch deserves more tribute around here and in the media than he got - 30 years of Lakers work!).
I agree with a lot of the points about the severity of that veto. I read Larry Coon's comments in some other thread many months ago going through why it was fair of Stern to do what he did. LC is someone I respect a lot like most everyone. (He did lead me to Taco Mesa) That aside, this is about the consequences of that veto, fair or not.
At the time it happened I knew then that day that it was a franchise altering event on the scale of 10 years and legacy. I knew it meant crisis for the whole franchise, and thought we recovered suprise to me with the Nash and Howard pickup (I put a lot of trust in Mitch though for both evaluating Nash's health and Howard's mental makeup - which I know now was mistaken trust). I did not consider the veto's impact on other teams then but see it now.
Kobe and CP3 would have worked. Kobe was looking for someone effective to reduce his load, get him the ball in advantageous positions, move without the ball and just shoot, and help him not have such a load in the 4th quarter both in actual crunch scoring and in actual crunch leadership and just ball handling. Melo even would have worked ok, though he fails on the last one. Kobe did fine in the Olympics with someone else with the ball control duties, and he would have done even better with CP3. His defense might have suffered less. I also think the achilles would have been less likely.
The Lakers would have as a guess 1 ring, possibly 2, and the Lakers org possibly set themselves up for unknowable flexibility for others during this entire nadir period we are in and will continue to go through for at least a few years.
I honestly did NOT think that we would see such depths of losing in any of these seasons or that we would not even see the prospect of competing for years from now. My fear then was that we would not be able to be one of the elite teams for a decade, not that we would be so pathetic as to pray for a mere playoff spot in yet another 3 years. So the depth of its impact should not be underestimated.
I would argue Dr. Buss' passing was the real apocalypse though. I thought his genius foresight also applied to evaluating Jim as the one to take over on the basketball side, but clearly not. I hope Magic primarily has that Dr Buss ember and can rebuild this identity, and that the young Busses have it too as they develop. |
nice post, great thoughts.
av and ah are making a reDONKulous argument based heavily upon the idea that cp3 and kobe wouldn't work. why they assume this is beyond me.
the rings is a great point. There's a reason why the owners complained, including Mr Cavs...lets look at this...Cavs idiot complains, and lo and behold, instead of kobe and lakers getting a ring, who gets it last year? Cavs! lol. pulled a fast one there. Like, how LA fans can have anything nice to say about that guy, dont start....
and that last point about the dr. yes, unfortunately, that was bad for us. As far as i can tell, the owners really used that as a chance to pillage the laker gold. cuz we had all of it. or half of it literally. a healthy dr. buss would probably be a very different story. The only thing, again, i wonder about that is right before he died, he was vocally in favor of parity and was talking like it would be nice for other teams to have a shot and good for everyone, etc. I've always wondered about that. But that was right before the veto. It's possible he was just saying that so the CBA would be completed with less problems. It was right before the veto, so it's not like he wasn't trying to pull off the heist of the century at the same time. |
I think Dr Buss believed he wanted the best for the NBA and thought he or we could outdo everyone on our talent, intelligence, risktaking or drive. But this is why I have been thinking about identity - as in what is and what was the Laker identity all those years. Was it really largely about him and his unique abilities to lead, or was there something more? So far, the something more has not proved out and I have wondered whether the Laker brand still exists without him. Are we the same Lakers if we lose as much as Milwaukee over a ten year period? What makes us special if not the front office + players combo? We know our fanbase is without peer, but clearly that is not enough. It's why I really hope Magic + young Wests + I guess Jeannie + Luke can actually regenerate what Dr. Buss had, what JWest had leading the organization.
Anyway, I think people don't see Kobe as flexible enough to have incorporated another great player. I see him as dying to get that kind of player. Even when we got a great #2 player in Pau, Kobe was like a drowning man thrown a life preserver, grasping at it. He didn't want to do what he felt he had to do under MDA play 46 minutes every game before his achilles blew as an older player. He wanted Nash and Howard to offload so much. It's sad. I really think he would have not just welcomed that kind of player like CP3, but loved that he could leave vocal leadership to CP3 too. I believe CP3 would have called Kobe out on defensive lapses for example and get in his face occasionally. I also think in general Kobe would have loved it. My opinion is he was all about the winning play. |
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Truck Turner
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Posts: 3937
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Gatekeeper wrote: | | It was a major setback for us as a franchise, but not the reason for their firings. Mostly it had to do with the lack of communication between the basketball ops camp and business ops. Jim and Mitch demonstrated this just this week before the firings when they tried to trade for DeMarcus without telling Jeanie. It's a recurring theme, Jim being impetuous and doing things his own way often to disastrous results. |
Here's the thing about that though....
There's countless interviews and tons of footage of Jeanie herself saying she allows Mitch and Jim to make all the basketball decisions, that she empowers them to do their job. Not once did she ever say that they needed to report to her, in fact they both went through great pains to make it explicitly clear that they operated as separate entities.
Now all of a sudden Mitch and Jim needed to inform Jeanie of an impending trade?? |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | I think Dr Buss believed he wanted the best for the NBA and thought he or we could outdo everyone on our talent, intelligence, risktaking or drive. But this is why I have been thinking about identity - as in what is and what was the Laker identity all those years. Was it really largely about him and his unique abilities to lead, or was there something more? So far, the something more has not proved out and I have wondered whether the Laker brand still exists without him. Are we the same Lakers if we lose as much as Milwaukee over a ten year period? What makes us special if not the front office + players combo? We know our fanbase is without peer, but clearly that is not enough. It's why I really hope Magic + young Wests + I guess Jeannie + Luke can actually regenerate what Dr. Buss had, what JWest had leading the organization. |
This begs the question, though. What was the Laker "identity"? We had superstars. We won. I don't know that we had any special identity beyond that. The brand is a different matter. All of the great franchises -- Yankees, Dodgers, Celtics, Cowboys, Steelers, etc. -- have gone through dry spells. In some cases, the dry spells have been lengthy. The brands survived. |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | we would have had a potential lineup of :
Howard (Bynum trade)
D.West (free agent)
Metta
Kobe
CP3 (VETOed Trade)
I would think this could have made a major difference in the history of the franchise and NBA since 2011 |
anyone saying otherwise is just someone that was on the "fire jim" or "fire mitch" bandwagon. they never really gave serious thought to how much the nixed deal destroyed the lakers present back then and their future til now. People try to say well..so...that was years ago by now things should have changed. I ask. How so. No one ever has that answer. |
I know. I do my best to keep a positive outlook and hope for the best in the future, but why do I have to ignore how severe that event was? I don't remember the details, but just to compare how teams and the league overall reacts to big moves...remember when pau came here out of the blue? Nobody expected that, and i forgot what the spurs did, but they definitely freaked out and did some major moves almost immediately after, and maybe a couple other teams also. It was like, oh s---, now pau is with kobe...and odom and bynum, oh damn. |
the reason people CHOSE to blame jim and some blamed mitch as well. shoot, some blamed vitti for the injury bugs that we never had up until it got completely crazy.
thats because people in general need to find a person they can see to blame. they couldn't see dan gilbert, jordan, mark cuban every day. and they couldn't see stern everyday. but they could see the lakers and they know who runs the lakers. since jeanie wasnt in charge of basketball. who was? jim, mitch, and vitti was the guy who was supposed to keep guys healthy. so all 3 of those guys caught hell post nixed deal.
people still fail to realize the reason we could not move gasol for anything worth a darn was because we already showed our hand once the deal was nixed. now the world knew we needed to move a disgruntled/hurt gasol.
just like odom losing his mind after the trade didnt go thru. we had to hurry up and get that guy out of here. while every team knew it. what do you think happens when you play cards and everyone can see your hand now?
On top of the fact we did that deal right when the new "small market" friendly cba was signed. that was the smartest thing to do. was to pull that sneak move right then and get that last good deal for a big market team to pair 3 greats for one last run (cp3, kobe, dwight(since drew's knees were bad.)
Truth is if you want to blame someone blame the injury bug too. Who knew bynum's knees would go out like that? No one. only those who knew his teammates would crash into his knees twice giving him two severe injuries. Do you guys realize bynum was our future? we would've never had to deal for dwight. it would've been cp3 only. or even when that deal went bad we could've flipped gasol and Lo for someone else. or even chump change and been okay. then kobe goes down with severe injury after severe injury back to back to back. good grief.
think about the chain of events.
our future in bynum died with constant knee injuries. so we had to trade him for the next best thing. the current #1 big in the nba who just had back issues and wanted. we were smart enough to get rid of gasol and odom before they got to old to play well enough to win it all. not get into the offs or get to the wcf's. but win it all. they were at that point where they were about to be on the downside of their careers. we saw it vs dallas. we saw it since with lamar when he left. we saw it with gasol. the little defense he had as a laker was completely gone once he left. sure he can score in the post sometimes. but he aint the gasol we once loved.
not only did bynum's knees go to hell and not only did old man kobe fall off a cliff due to injuries. but then every team we put together got hurt like crazy. nash with the fluke injury that ended his career. most dont remember he was still an allstar the year prior. so dont say 'but i knew he was going to get old that year." lies.
I have never in my life watching the nba seen a team go thru what we have. on top of the fact we just won multiple rings prior to all of this happening. and that team was just on the downside of things. once you get to the finals 3 or 4 times in a row. guys start aging out. why do you think bron jumped ship. he already knew. wade is aging with all these finals appearances. and so is the supporting cast.
so all of the worse case scenarios popped up all at once and people decided to place the blame on those they could see jim, mitch, and vitti, and even kobe's contract.
kobe was retired, vitti was retired. so it was all on jim and mitch.
they did what you have to do in this new cba. Bottom out. people talka bout how we botched the conversation with aldridge. the guy was never coming anyway. so who cares.
melo was never coming. so again...who cares.
non of those fa's were coming and if they did we would be stuck in the playoffs with a good team that was never going to be good enough to win it all. because no one is chasing melo for a title. no one is chasing lamarcus for a title either. the guys they follow are the new guys. KD, maybe paul george, and bron. if steph ran some where they might follow him too. thats about it. the rest of these guys are not attracting people. they are aging guys that couldnt do it with their own teams(melo in his prime couldnt get er done and neither could aldridge. that was a blessing in disguise that non of those guys wanted to come here. thank goodness. so we could bottom out like all teams have to in the new cba. Unless you get lucky like the spurs and you had a young team with duncan, parker, and gino grow together. then you pick up KL and he never gets severely injured(bynum anyone). so he can be the future you build around when the old guys retire. non of those guys got severely injured. thats how the spurs kept it going for so long.
now here we are, with a nice young core and possible another top pick. and watch magic get all the credit for the "NEW LAKERS" once the kids grow up. lol, and i like magic. all of a sudden everyone is talking patience. lol. same team we just had with mitch and jim. now its ok to be patient.  |
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splashmtn
Star Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 3961
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | focus wrote: | No, David Stern is not 'the reason'. However, 'but for' Stern, they probably would not have been fired because they and their actions would not have mattered as much, and the wins would have mitigated any negative evaluation of them. I think they would have had less pressure, and actually had an easier job limiting any downsides to their actions. Probably more confidence in negotiating other deals, and less fans wondering about them. But Stern is not the reason, he's an external apocalypse that they were not skilled enough to navigate out of. Which to me is more about the extent of the apocalypse than say Mitch's failings. (I still think Mitch deserves more tribute around here and in the media than he got - 30 years of Lakers work!).
I agree with a lot of the points about the severity of that veto. I read Larry Coon's comments in some other thread many months ago going through why it was fair of Stern to do what he did. LC is someone I respect a lot like most everyone. (He did lead me to Taco Mesa) That aside, this is about the consequences of that veto, fair or not.
At the time it happened I knew then that day that it was a franchise altering event on the scale of 10 years and legacy. I knew it meant crisis for the whole franchise, and thought we recovered suprise to me with the Nash and Howard pickup (I put a lot of trust in Mitch though for both evaluating Nash's health and Howard's mental makeup - which I know now was mistaken trust). I did not consider the veto's impact on other teams then but see it now.
Kobe and CP3 would have worked. Kobe was looking for someone effective to reduce his load, get him the ball in advantageous positions, move without the ball and just shoot, and help him not have such a load in the 4th quarter both in actual crunch scoring and in actual crunch leadership and just ball handling. Melo even would have worked ok, though he fails on the last one. Kobe did fine in the Olympics with someone else with the ball control duties, and he would have done even better with CP3. His defense might have suffered less. I also think the achilles would have been less likely.
The Lakers would have as a guess 1 ring, possibly 2, and the Lakers org possibly set themselves up for unknowable flexibility for others during this entire nadir period we are in and will continue to go through for at least a few years.
I honestly did NOT think that we would see such depths of losing in any of these seasons or that we would not even see the prospect of competing for years from now. My fear then was that we would not be able to be one of the elite teams for a decade, not that we would be so pathetic as to pray for a mere playoff spot in yet another 3 years. So the depth of its impact should not be underestimated.
I would argue Dr. Buss' passing was the real apocalypse though. I thought his genius foresight also applied to evaluating Jim as the one to take over on the basketball side, but clearly not. I hope Magic primarily has that Dr Buss ember and can rebuild this identity, and that the young Busses have it too as they develop. |
nice post, great thoughts.
av and ah are making a reDONKulous argument based heavily upon the idea that cp3 and kobe wouldn't work. why they assume this is beyond me.
the rings is a great point. There's a reason why the owners complained, including Mr Cavs...lets look at this...Cavs idiot complains, and lo and behold, instead of kobe and lakers getting a ring, who gets it last year? Cavs! lol. pulled a fast one there. Like, how LA fans can have anything nice to say about that guy, dont start....
and that last point about the dr. yes, unfortunately, that was bad for us. As far as i can tell, the owners really used that as a chance to pillage the laker gold. cuz we had all of it. or half of it literally. a healthy dr. buss would probably be a very different story. The only thing, again, i wonder about that is right before he died, he was vocally in favor of parity and was talking like it would be nice for other teams to have a shot and good for everyone, etc. I've always wondered about that. But that was right before the veto. It's possible he was just saying that so the CBA would be completed with less problems. It was right before the veto, so it's not like he wasn't trying to pull off the heist of the century at the same time. |
I think Dr Buss believed he wanted the best for the NBA and thought he or we could outdo everyone on our talent, intelligence, risktaking or drive. But this is why I have been thinking about identity - as in what is and what was the Laker identity all those years. Was it really largely about him and his unique abilities to lead, or was there something more? So far, the something more has not proved out and I have wondered whether the Laker brand still exists without him. Are we the same Lakers if we lose as much as Milwaukee over a ten year period? What makes us special if not the front office + players combo? We know our fanbase is without peer, but clearly that is not enough. It's why I really hope Magic + young Wests + I guess Jeannie + Luke can actually regenerate what Dr. Buss had, what JWest had leading the organization.
Anyway, I think people don't see Kobe as flexible enough to have incorporated another great player. I see him as dying to get that kind of player. Even when we got a great #2 player in Pau, Kobe was like a drowning man thrown a life preserver, grasping at it. He didn't want to do what he felt he had to do under MDA play 46 minutes every game before his achilles blew as an older player. He wanted Nash and Howard to offload so much. It's sad. I really think he would have not just welcomed that kind of player like CP3, but loved that he could leave vocal leadership to CP3 too. I believe CP3 would have called Kobe out on defensive lapses for example and get in his face occasionally. I also think in general Kobe would have loved it. My opinion is he was all about the winning play. |
no doubt doc buss had "IT". but it's beyond that nowadays. everything has changed. and if doc buss was here to see it. he would be another person yall would be wishing would sell the team. maybe not you but some of the same people that wanted mitch and jim out.
people act as if everything hasnt changed in comparison to what doc buss would deal with.
doc buss thing was to wait for a great FA big that wanted out of their small market team and to come to LA LA. then draft another great.
it happened with kareem even after he won with the bucks. he was a NY kid and wanted to play some where bigger. some where he knew would fit his legendary status and that was where his college career was. in L.A.
and then we draft magic.
we wait for the magic to make the mistake of not paying shaq every penny they had. thanks orlando. we get shaq just like we got kareem. then we draft kobe.
The formula started to change. since big men were no longer great in the post.
this is one drastic change from the doc buss era lakers. bynum was about to be the last true dominant Back to the basket center. but the knees. oh the knees. we still drafted him and he played well for us until the knees couldnt go any longer. we still ended up once again taking yet another small market great big in dwight. but that was post back injury and him not being a great back to the basket big. he was the best athletic, pick n roll/ defense big in the nba. not back to the basket. see the difference?
There were no magic's or kobe's aside from lebron that has come to the nba. i love westbrook. but as good as he is. he's still a smaller guy playing like he's 6'6. he still can't shoot well enough. if he could he would have one ring at worse already. KD is a great scorer. but not much else in reality. he's like dominique. you can't stop him. but he wont stop you either. and he's not a great passer. which is why he really needed to team up with the splash brothers to have a chance at winning it all.
curry is great. but even he is just to small and not athletic enough to be a kobe or bron level guy. so look around the league. the ultra super stars the lakers would normally draft dont exist aside from bron. bron is the next one. we couldnt get him because we were winning rings while the cavs were sucking all those decades.
again see how things are different then Doc buss' era.
lets not even talk about the cba changing to benefit small market teams.
lets not talk about social media making the world smaller. meaning players dont feel as isolated playing for milwaukee, okc, etc when everyone can just tweet something out and feel like they know whats going on right now. this means their brands can do well no matter where they play. this was not the case during doc buss' era. this was a selling point. "hey come to L.A> and your brand will take off... Come to NY and your brand will take off. Come to chicago and your brand will take off." well my brand has already taken off in indiana (paul george). i dont NEED L.A. anymore.
another thing that was not the same during doc buss era.
now the cba change yet again. where these loser teams can pay their superstar players that were rookies with them some insane amt of money in comparison to what other teams can offer them. its so much so that i'm not sure any player will turn that kind of cash down. not even for winning. its just too much cash.
this was not the case in doc buss' era. doc would tell the player we'll give you almost what your home team is giving you and we will get you into the hollywood and let you make up the difference. i'm not sure a hollywood hook up can make up that kind of difference of todays new cba.
So can the lakers get back on top? YEP. will they? YEP. but it may take longer than usual due to all of the above things. and it will end up being done differently than before. the one thing we have had on our side is a high intelligence in our front office. we dont lose players we should've kept. not star players. thats something that happens to bad Front office's. |
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SuperboyReformed
Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | we would have had a potential lineup of :
Howard (Bynum trade)
D.West (free agent)
Metta
Kobe
CP3 (VETOed Trade)
I would think this could have made a major difference in the history of the franchise and NBA since 2011 |
anyone saying otherwise is just someone that was on the "fire jim" or "fire mitch" bandwagon. they never really gave serious thought to how much the nixed deal destroyed the lakers present back then and their future til now. People try to say well..so...that was years ago by now things should have changed. I ask. How so. No one ever has that answer. |
I know. I do my best to keep a positive outlook and hope for the best in the future, but why do I have to ignore how severe that event was? I don't remember the details, but just to compare how teams and the league overall reacts to big moves...remember when pau came here out of the blue? Nobody expected that, and i forgot what the spurs did, but they definitely freaked out and did some major moves almost immediately after, and maybe a couple other teams also. It was like, oh s---, now pau is with kobe...and odom and bynum, oh damn. |
the reason people CHOSE to blame jim and some blamed mitch as well. shoot, some blamed vitti for the injury bugs that we never had up until it got completely crazy.
thats because people in general need to find a person they can see to blame. they couldn't see dan gilbert, jordan, mark cuban every day. and they couldn't see stern everyday. but they could see the lakers and they know who runs the lakers. since jeanie wasnt in charge of basketball. who was? jim, mitch, and vitti was the guy who was supposed to keep guys healthy. so all 3 of those guys caught hell post nixed deal.
people still fail to realize the reason we could not move gasol for anything worth a darn was because we already showed our hand once the deal was nixed. now the world knew we needed to move a disgruntled/hurt gasol.
just like odom losing his mind after the trade didnt go thru. we had to hurry up and get that guy out of here. while every team knew it. what do you think happens when you play cards and everyone can see your hand now?
On top of the fact we did that deal right when the new "small market" friendly cba was signed. that was the smartest thing to do. was to pull that sneak move right then and get that last good deal for a big market team to pair 3 greats for one last run (cp3, kobe, dwight(since drew's knees were bad.)
Truth is if you want to blame someone blame the injury bug too. Who knew bynum's knees would go out like that? No one. only those who knew his teammates would crash into his knees twice giving him two severe injuries. Do you guys realize bynum was our future? we would've never had to deal for dwight. it would've been cp3 only. or even when that deal went bad we could've flipped gasol and Lo for someone else. or even chump change and been okay. then kobe goes down with severe injury after severe injury back to back to back. good grief.
think about the chain of events.
our future in bynum died with constant knee injuries. so we had to trade him for the next best thing. the current #1 big in the nba who just had back issues and wanted. we were smart enough to get rid of gasol and odom before they got to old to play well enough to win it all. not get into the offs or get to the wcf's. but win it all. they were at that point where they were about to be on the downside of their careers. we saw it vs dallas. we saw it since with lamar when he left. we saw it with gasol. the little defense he had as a laker was completely gone once he left. sure he can score in the post sometimes. but he aint the gasol we once loved.
not only did bynum's knees go to hell and not only did old man kobe fall off a cliff due to injuries. but then every team we put together got hurt like crazy. nash with the fluke injury that ended his career. most dont remember he was still an allstar the year prior. so dont say 'but i knew he was going to get old that year." lies.
I have never in my life watching the nba seen a team go thru what we have. on top of the fact we just won multiple rings prior to all of this happening. and that team was just on the downside of things. once you get to the finals 3 or 4 times in a row. guys start aging out. why do you think bron jumped ship. he already knew. wade is aging with all these finals appearances. and so is the supporting cast.
so all of the worse case scenarios popped up all at once and people decided to place the blame on those they could see jim, mitch, and vitti, and even kobe's contract.
kobe was retired, vitti was retired. so it was all on jim and mitch.
they did what you have to do in this new cba. Bottom out. people talka bout how we botched the conversation with aldridge. the guy was never coming anyway. so who cares.
melo was never coming. so again...who cares.
non of those fa's were coming and if they did we would be stuck in the playoffs with a good team that was never going to be good enough to win it all. because no one is chasing melo for a title. no one is chasing lamarcus for a title either. the guys they follow are the new guys. KD, maybe paul george, and bron. if steph ran some where they might follow him too. thats about it. the rest of these guys are not attracting people. they are aging guys that couldnt do it with their own teams(melo in his prime couldnt get er done and neither could aldridge. that was a blessing in disguise that non of those guys wanted to come here. thank goodness. so we could bottom out like all teams have to in the new cba. Unless you get lucky like the spurs and you had a young team with duncan, parker, and gino grow together. then you pick up KL and he never gets severely injured(bynum anyone). so he can be the future you build around when the old guys retire. non of those guys got severely injured. thats how the spurs kept it going for so long.
now here we are, with a nice young core and possible another top pick. and watch magic get all the credit for the "NEW LAKERS" once the kids grow up. lol, and i like magic. all of a sudden everyone is talking patience. lol. same team we just had with mitch and jim. now its ok to be patient. |
well this is just an epic post, thanks. |
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Krispy Kreme
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
Posts: 12252
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | | KobeDunk wrote: | we would have had a potential lineup of :
Howard (Bynum trade)
D.West (free agent)
Metta
Kobe
CP3 (VETOed Trade)
I would think this could have made a major difference in the history of the franchise and NBA since 2011 |
anyone saying otherwise is just someone that was on the "fire jim" or "fire mitch" bandwagon. they never really gave serious thought to how much the nixed deal destroyed the lakers present back then and their future til now. People try to say well..so...that was years ago by now things should have changed. I ask. How so. No one ever has that answer. |
I know. I do my best to keep a positive outlook and hope for the best in the future, but why do I have to ignore how severe that event was? I don't remember the details, but just to compare how teams and the league overall reacts to big moves...remember when pau came here out of the blue? Nobody expected that, and i forgot what the spurs did, but they definitely freaked out and did some major moves almost immediately after, and maybe a couple other teams also. It was like, oh s---, now pau is with kobe...and odom and bynum, oh damn. |
the reason people CHOSE to blame jim and some blamed mitch as well. shoot, some blamed vitti for the injury bugs that we never had up until it got completely crazy.
thats because people in general need to find a person they can see to blame. they couldn't see dan gilbert, jordan, mark cuban every day. and they couldn't see stern everyday. but they could see the lakers and they know who runs the lakers. since jeanie wasnt in charge of basketball. who was? jim, mitch, and vitti was the guy who was supposed to keep guys healthy. so all 3 of those guys caught hell post nixed deal.
people still fail to realize the reason we could not move gasol for anything worth a darn was because we already showed our hand once the deal was nixed. now the world knew we needed to move a disgruntled/hurt gasol.
just like odom losing his mind after the trade didnt go thru. we had to hurry up and get that guy out of here. while every team knew it. what do you think happens when you play cards and everyone can see your hand now?
On top of the fact we did that deal right when the new "small market" friendly cba was signed. that was the smartest thing to do. was to pull that sneak move right then and get that last good deal for a big market team to pair 3 greats for one last run (cp3, kobe, dwight(since drew's knees were bad.)
Truth is if you want to blame someone blame the injury bug too. Who knew bynum's knees would go out like that? No one. only those who knew his teammates would crash into his knees twice giving him two severe injuries. Do you guys realize bynum was our future? we would've never had to deal for dwight. it would've been cp3 only. or even when that deal went bad we could've flipped gasol and Lo for someone else. or even chump change and been okay. then kobe goes down with severe injury after severe injury back to back to back. good grief.
think about the chain of events.
our future in bynum died with constant knee injuries. so we had to trade him for the next best thing. the current #1 big in the nba who just had back issues and wanted. we were smart enough to get rid of gasol and odom before they got to old to play well enough to win it all. not get into the offs or get to the wcf's. but win it all. they were at that point where they were about to be on the downside of their careers. we saw it vs dallas. we saw it since with lamar when he left. we saw it with gasol. the little defense he had as a laker was completely gone once he left. sure he can score in the post sometimes. but he aint the gasol we once loved.
not only did bynum's knees go to hell and not only did old man kobe fall off a cliff due to injuries. but then every team we put together got hurt like crazy. nash with the fluke injury that ended his career. most dont remember he was still an allstar the year prior. so dont say 'but i knew he was going to get old that year." lies.
I have never in my life watching the nba seen a team go thru what we have. on top of the fact we just won multiple rings prior to all of this happening. and that team was just on the downside of things. once you get to the finals 3 or 4 times in a row. guys start aging out. why do you think bron jumped ship. he already knew. wade is aging with all these finals appearances. and so is the supporting cast.
so all of the worse case scenarios popped up all at once and people decided to place the blame on those they could see jim, mitch, and vitti, and even kobe's contract.
kobe was retired, vitti was retired. so it was all on jim and mitch.
they did what you have to do in this new cba. Bottom out. people talka bout how we botched the conversation with aldridge. the guy was never coming anyway. so who cares.
melo was never coming. so again...who cares.
non of those fa's were coming and if they did we would be stuck in the playoffs with a good team that was never going to be good enough to win it all. because no one is chasing melo for a title. no one is chasing lamarcus for a title either. the guys they follow are the new guys. KD, maybe paul george, and bron. if steph ran some where they might follow him too. thats about it. the rest of these guys are not attracting people. they are aging guys that couldnt do it with their own teams(melo in his prime couldnt get er done and neither could aldridge. that was a blessing in disguise that non of those guys wanted to come here. thank goodness. so we could bottom out like all teams have to in the new cba. Unless you get lucky like the spurs and you had a young team with duncan, parker, and gino grow together. then you pick up KL and he never gets severely injured(bynum anyone). so he can be the future you build around when the old guys retire. non of those guys got severely injured. thats how the spurs kept it going for so long.
now here we are, with a nice young core and possible another top pick. and watch magic get all the credit for the "NEW LAKERS" once the kids grow up. lol, and i like magic. all of a sudden everyone is talking patience. lol. same team we just had with mitch and jim. now its ok to be patient. |
if we turn things around, then he should get all the credit. if all of the sudden we're being more successful at getting FAs, then should Jim Buss get the credit? if we're terrible the next few years, I'll rip Magic a new one just like I did with Jim. We need to be competing for a playoff berth next year, otherwise I'll be disappointed with Magic.
and how do you know LMA was never coming here? is it because it's easy for you to say that to shift blame off Buss (both of them)? Durant was never coming here because he never even met with us. LMA we had a chance.
LMA even said he liked Kobe's presentation but didn't like the rest of the FO's presentation. Not saying we were super close to getting LMA, but he met with us and Kobe. We had a chance there. We're so unattractive that some FA won't even meet with us. That's a bad sign. That falls on both Jim and Jeanie. One of them had to go since they were bickering and had their head up their butt.
We made bad FA signings in Deng and Mozgov. Why? Just to make a move? Any clown could see coming a mile away those were bad signings. What do you have to say about those 2 signings? Were they a good move? Why or why not?
It ended up being Jim getting fired. Let's see what Magic and Rob can do. I personally think it will be hit or miss. Since Magic and Rob may be in over their heads. Who knows.
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clutchkobe
Star Player
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 1982
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Truck Turner wrote: | | Gatekeeper wrote: | | It was a major setback for us as a franchise, but not the reason for their firings. Mostly it had to do with the lack of communication between the basketball ops camp and business ops. Jim and Mitch demonstrated this just this week before the firings when they tried to trade for DeMarcus without telling Jeanie. It's a recurring theme, Jim being impetuous and doing things his own way often to disastrous results. |
Here's the thing about that though....
There's countless interviews and tons of footage of Jeanie herself saying she allows Mitch and Jim to make all the basketball decisions, that she empowers them to do their job. Not once did she ever say that they needed to report to her, in fact they both went through great pains to make it explicitly clear that they operated as separate entities.
Now all of a sudden Mitch and Jim needed to inform Jeanie of an impending trade?? |
jerry buss was notified of all impending trades....why because he was the owner. He is supposed to know. All of the sibilings have a stake in the company but the boss of the lakers is jeanie. She had a right to know before it happened. Jim was playing the role as president of basketball operations....he was supposed to let her know She is the boss. |
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