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MJST
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:56 am Post subject: |
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D'Antoni with a defensive starting lineup of Harden, Ryan Anderson and Capela
Are the 14th ranked defense of the league, which means top half.
I'm sure everyone thought they'd be bottom of the league defensively and would miss the playofffs while harden dropped 30/10/20 a game.
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| MJST wrote: | D'Antoni with a defensive starting lineup of Harden, Ryan Anderson and Capela
Are the 14th ranked defense of the league, which means top half.
I'm sure everyone thought they'd be bottom of the league defensively and would miss the playofffs while harden dropped 30/10/20 a game. |
.
Having Patrick Beverly helps, he's one of the best defensive players in the NBA. |
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BobbyB
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | MJST wrote: | D'Antoni with a defensive starting lineup of Harden, Ryan Anderson and Capela
Are the 14th ranked defense of the league, which means top half.
I'm sure everyone thought they'd be bottom of the league defensively and would miss the playofffs while harden dropped 30/10/20 a game. |
.
Having Patrick Beverly helps, he's one of the best defensive players in the NBA. |
Lol when Dantoni team plays ok D its because he has pat Beverley when his team sucks at D its because he doesn't coach D....
Stop it...Dantoni is a great coach and its this damn media bias that will never go away about how he doesn't coach D...How the hell do you get a job in the NBA and have so many great coaches admire the work you do and not coach D its just sounds stupid when I type it...
Does he focus on offense yes. But that doesn't mean he completely forgets about Defense...Stop. |
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laker4life
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Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7320
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | tox wrote: | | LakerEric wrote: | | 4 years of hell! Jim and Mitch were definitely a problem. Mitch was great but just fell behind the times. |
What's the alternative to "4 years of hell"?
Somehow, I never hear about how the grand plan that should've been enacted to win around the corpse of Kobe taking 40% of the cap while being a huge net negative player while also setting us up for the future as we were a team utterly deprived of assets.
But please, I'm all ears. Maybe they should've convinced LeBron and Durant to come? Magic was right all along! Can't believe Jim and Mitch didn't think of that! |
Mitch and Jim did what most fans would have wanted, they tried to reload, and it cost them a lot when the first move of the reload got vetoed and not only made them have to go for a riskier move, but it cost them a premium player in Odom with not much in return as a result of the veto, and it certainly changed Pau's motivation. They then tried a different reload, the "let's send Kobe out on a playoff team with his buddy that probably can't win it all and will delay our rebuild" plan. But that was not to be either.
But at the end of the day, the reload failed, and failed with a huge price tag still due, and at that point bottoming out and starting over was the right thing to do. ANd that's what they did. |
Reload was fine.
The coaching hire was a disaster.
We are paying the price for that one. |
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MJST
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| laker4life wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | tox wrote: | | LakerEric wrote: | | 4 years of hell! Jim and Mitch were definitely a problem. Mitch was great but just fell behind the times. |
What's the alternative to "4 years of hell"?
Somehow, I never hear about how the grand plan that should've been enacted to win around the corpse of Kobe taking 40% of the cap while being a huge net negative player while also setting us up for the future as we were a team utterly deprived of assets.
But please, I'm all ears. Maybe they should've convinced LeBron and Durant to come? Magic was right all along! Can't believe Jim and Mitch didn't think of that! |
Mitch and Jim did what most fans would have wanted, they tried to reload, and it cost them a lot when the first move of the reload got vetoed and not only made them have to go for a riskier move, but it cost them a premium player in Odom with not much in return as a result of the veto, and it certainly changed Pau's motivation. They then tried a different reload, the "let's send Kobe out on a playoff team with his buddy that probably can't win it all and will delay our rebuild" plan. But that was not to be either.
But at the end of the day, the reload failed, and failed with a huge price tag still due, and at that point bottoming out and starting over was the right thing to do. ANd that's what they did. |
Reload was fine.
The coaching hire was a disaster.
We are paying the price for that one. |
The coaching hire is the right one if Dwight wasn't so thin skinned by what Shaq said that he wanted to 'prove' he was a post player instead of pick and rolling bigs to death and if Nash's leg wasn't broken.
Cause having Nash and Dwight as your pick and roll point guard and big in D'Antoni's offense is a devastating concept.
Too bad Nash got his leg broken and Dwight refused to pick and roll to the point Nash blasted at him. When you get Steve freaking Nash to get pissed with you, you've done something wrong.
If Pau didn't have vertigo, or those 'timely' injuries that came up whenever the trade deadline came up, because he knew he was gone for Ryan Anderson if it was up to D'Antoni and the proper fit.
And hey, we may have hated Pau leaving
But Pau for Ryan Anderson, Xavier Henry and the Pelican's pick(top 3 protected) would have been an amazing get for us. Pau still had high value around the league and the prospect of pairing Pau Gasol with Anthony Davis was one they did seem interested in as Ryan Anderson for Pau was constantly discussed. But Pau's timely "vertigo" or extremely timely "plantar fascia" that would go away once the trade deadline had passed....
That did rob us of potential assets.
Especially when you consider if Dwight left us in free agency we'd still have had the Pelican's pick to fall back on, which could have netted us Nerlens Noel.. or a young prospect by the name of Giannis Antentekoumpo....
yeah.....
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magicdays
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:54 am Post subject: |
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Dumbtoni was the wrong coach for our team. That team was structured for a PJ-style team not for Dumbtoni's-style team. He was the wrong hire for that team. Who cares if he is doing good now? Pau left us and played well for Chicago after Dumbtoni abused him here.
1) Jim hired the wrong coach at tha time
2) Dumbtoni wanted the team to adjust to his style rather than accommodate to the veteran skilled, championship-caliber team he was given.
And, for those who keep saying he is a "great" coach. Stop it--he has not won any championship. He is, at best, a good coach when surrounded with his style of players. A great coach gets the most out of his players and wins championships. That is why PJ and Pops are great coaches.
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underdogsgv
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| I view D'Antoni in much the same way I viewed Don Nelson - good but not great coach who overachieves. Uses a different from the norm system and a roster built for that system. If he doesn't have the players who are the perfect fit for the system, his teams are mediocre (NYK) Teams usually fall apart in the playoffs. D'Antoni's good teams have that super usage-rate ballhandler surrounded by an army of shooters, Nelson's good teams played Nellie-Ball and revolved around his super athletic 2 guards that played 44 minutes a game (Moncrief, Sprewell, prime Finley etc). |
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TransientTexan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| magicdays wrote: | Dumbtoni was the wrong coach for our team. That team was structured for a PJ-style team not for Dumbtoni's-style team. He was the wrong hire for that team. Who cares if he is doing good now? Pau left us and played well for Chicago after Dumbtoni abused him here.
1) Jim hired the wrong coach at tha time
2) Dumbtoni wanted the team to adjust to his style rather than accommodate to the veteran skilled, championship-caliber team he was given.
And, for those who keep saying he is a "great" coach. Stop it--he has not won any championship. He is, at best, a good coach when surrounded with his style of players. A great coach gets the most out of his players and wins championships. That is why PJ and Pops are great coaches. |
90% of coaches haven't won championships. whatever he is, I assure you, Dantoni is alot smarter than you. |
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Yumyumcha
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| underdogsgv wrote: | | I view D'Antoni in much the same way I viewed Don Nelson - good but not great coach who overachieves. Uses a different from the norm system and a roster built for that system. If he doesn't have the players who are the perfect fit for the system, his teams are mediocre (NYK) Teams usually fall apart in the playoffs. D'Antoni's good teams have that super usage-rate ballhandler surrounded by an army of shooters, Nelson's good teams played Nellie-Ball and revolved around his super athletic 2 guards that played 44 minutes a game (Moncrief, Sprewell, prime Finley etc). |
I'm not comparing Phil to D'antoni but couldn't one say that Phil and his Triangle only works when you have 3 or 4 of the best players in the league ever?
Sorry TransientTexan, this wasn't really directed at you but it touched on some of the complaints I hear about D'antoni (that he needs a good point guard for his system to work) |
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andree
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Phil Jackson gave the most accurate opinion about D'Antoni.
It was not long ago after they hired D'Antoni. Phil was invited by Jay Leno to present his book (11 rings). After he told the story that we all know he said:
Mike D'Antony is a good coach. But he has to have the right players.
Theoretically we had the players. Only theoretically (Nash injured, Dwight not willing to play P&R). |
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magicdays
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TransientTexan wrote: | | magicdays wrote: | Dumbtoni was the wrong coach for our team. That team was structured for a PJ-style team not for Dumbtoni's-style team. He was the wrong hire for that team. Who cares if he is doing good now? Pau left us and played well for Chicago after Dumbtoni abused him here.
1) Jim hired the wrong coach at tha time
2) Dumbtoni wanted the team to adjust to his style rather than accommodate to the veteran skilled, championship-caliber team he was given.
And, for those who keep saying he is a "great" coach. Stop it--he has not won any championship. He is, at best, a good coach when surrounded with his style of players. A great coach gets the most out of his players and wins championships. That is why PJ and Pops are great coaches. |
90% of coaches haven't won championships. whatever he is, I assure you, Dantoni is alot smarter than you. |
Wow, I must have touched your sensitive spot. 10% of coaches are great--that's about right. Thanks for supporting my argument.
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TransientTexan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| magicdays wrote: | | TransientTexan wrote: | | magicdays wrote: | Dumbtoni was the wrong coach for our team. That team was structured for a PJ-style team not for Dumbtoni's-style team. He was the wrong hire for that team. Who cares if he is doing good now? Pau left us and played well for Chicago after Dumbtoni abused him here.
1) Jim hired the wrong coach at tha time
2) Dumbtoni wanted the team to adjust to his style rather than accommodate to the veteran skilled, championship-caliber team he was given.
And, for those who keep saying he is a "great" coach. Stop it--he has not won any championship. He is, at best, a good coach when surrounded with his style of players. A great coach gets the most out of his players and wins championships. That is why PJ and Pops are great coaches. |
90% of coaches haven't won championships. whatever he is, I assure you, Dantoni is alot smarter than you. |
Wow, I must have touched your sensitive spot. 10% of coaches are great--that's about right. Thanks for supporting my argument. |
says the guy who is so triggered by professionals in an entertainment league that he has to disparage them in order to feel better about his own lack of intelligence. |
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Yumyumcha
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Andre2K
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:43 am Post subject: |
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I've always liked D'Antoni, I'm happy he's proving his doubters wrong in Houston. I also agree with him that Mitch and Jim were not the problem.
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E_Wulf420
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe was putting up numbers I have never seen from him under MDA. He was having probably his 3rd best season at the age of 33. If Kobe stays healthy that year and doesn't year his Achilles MDA would have a ring right now, and Kobe would have cemented that he's top 2 all time next to MJ.
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pio2u
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Jim & Mitch may or may not have not been the problem THEN.
However fast forward a few years and think Mozgov/Deng (among other snafus). |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| E_Wulf420 wrote: | | Kobe was putting up numbers I have never seen from him under MDA. He was having probably his 3rd best season at the age of 33. If Kobe stays healthy that year and doesn't year his Achilles MDA would have a ring right now, and Kobe would have cemented that he's top 2 all time next to MJ. |
If Kobe doesn't tear his Achilles, the Spurs probably try much harder to win Game #81 against us two days later, that would put the Lakers #8 and lock the Rockets in at #7. With no Patrick Beverley to injure Westbrook (as HOU plays #2 SA in this hypothetical), top-seeded OKC runs past us in five games just like 2012. Blake and Nash were breaking down as well, and Earl Clark would be starting against Ibaka.
Although Kobe's numbers were up during the first 32 games under D'Antoni's system (30/4/4), the Lakers went 12-20. After the team meeting at 17-25, Kobe averaged 25 and 7.5 assists over the 26-12 stretch run. The Lakers offense was so different over the last 40 games, it inspired YouTube conspiracy videos over our increased FT attempts and fouls drawn by Dwight and Pau. |
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tox
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Although Kobe's numbers were up during the first 32 games under D'Antoni's system (30/4/4), the Lakers went 12-20. After the team meeting at 17-25, Kobe averaged 25 and 7.5 assists over the 26-12 stretch run. The Lakers offense was so different over the last 40 games, it inspired YouTube conspiracy videos over our increased FT attempts and fouls drawn by Dwight and Pau. |
Loved that. Yeah, the refs are helping the Lakers win by putting Dwight at the line more? K. |
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The Logo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Geeze it's 2017 and people still don't think MDA is a good coach? Yikes. |
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Laker_Dynasty_01
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Joined: 06 Jun 2001
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Laker_Dynasty_01 wrote: | | Although Kobe's numbers were up during the first 32 games under D'Antoni's system (30/4/4), the Lakers went 12-20. After the team meeting at 17-25, Kobe averaged 25 and 7.5 assists over the 26-12 stretch run. The Lakers offense was so different over the last 40 games, it inspired YouTube conspiracy videos over our increased FT attempts and fouls drawn by Dwight and Pau. |
Loved that. Yeah, the refs are helping the Lakers win by putting Dwight at the line more? K. |
My favorite part was where the uploader highlighted the 2/22/13 Portland game, and wanted Lillard to shoot free throws b/c Kobe tapped Dame on the head one full second before the shooting motion (on the flyby). The Lakers had a foul to give. Calling the foul would've robbed Lillard of an open corner three, down three with 5 seconds left. But somehow the refs were helping the Lakers. |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Logo wrote: | | Geeze it's 2017 and people still don't think MDA is a good coach? Yikes. |
He's average. Give him "his guys" in "his system" and his teams will do well. Give him less than his ideal situation and his teams suffer.
Steve Nash was a proven winner/All-Star before he got into MDA's system.
Amar'e was ROY before he got into MDA's system.
Matrix was an All Star/Steals leader before he got into MDA's system.
PHO had a great run during MDA's 4-years - but was it MDA or was it adding Nash to Amar'e/Matrix/Barbosa? Remember, PHO with MDA stunk before adding Nash.
MDA leaves PHO for NYK and - despite the Bricks adding Amar'e. 'Melo, etc. - the Knicks made the playoffs once in his 4 seasons, getting swept in the 1st Round.
We know what happened when he came to LA - no Nash, no SSOL with D12 and rather than MDA adjusting, the players had to basically defy him on the court and run their own system to sqeak into the playoffs . . . then they imploded.
Now he's in HOU and he's a genius again. How much is that MDA and how much is MVP level Harden/additions of E Gordon/Ryan Anderson?
Most coaches put up a good record with talent on the roster and don't win with no talent on the roster.
Great coaches win championships with talent on the roster and overachieve with talent-deficient teams (see: 2005-06 Lakers).
MDA is average.
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tox
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Steve Nash was a proven winner/All-Star before he got into MDA's system.
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lol
slight difference between borderline all-star and superstar/ 2-time MVP (even if you don't think he deserved them, he was a legit candidate, unlike all his years sans MDA) |
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The Logo
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | The Logo wrote: | | Geeze it's 2017 and people still don't think MDA is a good coach? Yikes. |
He's average. Give him "his guys" in "his system" and his teams will do well. Give him less than his ideal situation and his teams suffer.
Steve Nash was a proven winner/All-Star before he got into MDA's system.
Amar'e was ROY before he got into MDA's system.
Matrix was an All Star/Steals leader before he got into MDA's system.
PHO had a great run during MDA's 4-years - but was it MDA or was it adding Nash to Amar'e/Matrix/Barbosa? Remember, PHO with MDA stunk before adding Nash.
MDA leaves PHO for NYK and - despite the Bricks adding Amar'e. 'Melo, etc. - the Knicks made the playoffs once in his 4 seasons, getting swept in the 1st Round.
We know what happened when he came to LA - no Nash, no SSOL with D12 and rather than MDA adjusting, the players had to basically defy him on the court and run their own system to sqeak into the playoffs . . . then they imploded.
Now he's in HOU and he's a genius again. How much is that MDA and how much is MVP level Harden/additions of E Gordon/Ryan Anderson?
Most coaches put up a good record with talent on the roster and don't win with no talent on the roster.
Great coaches win championships with talent on the roster and overachieve with talent-deficient teams (see: 2005-06 Lakers).
MDA is average. |
How different really is the talent between this year's Houston team and last year's Houston team? You can argue that last year's Houston team underachieved, but what does it say about the roster being essentially the same, but with adding Anderson and Gordon and subtracting Howard, who say what you want, but he was the much more proven player than the inexperienced Capella. Absolutely no one predicted Houston to win 50+ games even with Harden playing because they had no idea what they were going to get out of Anderson and Gordon, two injury prone, inconsistent players before coming to Houston.
Also how can you say that "great coaches overachieve with talent-deficient teams" when Phil had a top 10 player of all time and a triple double threat in Odom, while at the same time dismissing what MDA has done to Houston because they have Harden? The teams that Kobe was on from '05-'07 were a (bleep) sandwich, but by the same logic, why is Houston overachieving when James Harden is nowhere near peak Kobe in terms of talent? |
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The Logo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Quote: | Steve Nash was a proven winner/All-Star before he got into MDA's system.
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lol
slight difference between borderline all-star and superstar/ 2-time MVP (even if you don't think he deserved them, he was a legit candidate, unlike all his years sans MDA) |
*proven winner when he won nada in his career* |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| The Logo wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | The Logo wrote: | | Geeze it's 2017 and people still don't think MDA is a good coach? Yikes. |
He's average. Give him "his guys" in "his system" and his teams will do well. Give him less than his ideal situation and his teams suffer.
Steve Nash was a proven winner/All-Star before he got into MDA's system.
Amar'e was ROY before he got into MDA's system.
Matrix was an All Star/Steals leader before he got into MDA's system.
PHO had a great run during MDA's 4-years - but was it MDA or was it adding Nash to Amar'e/Matrix/Barbosa? Remember, PHO with MDA stunk before adding Nash.
MDA leaves PHO for NYK and - despite the Bricks adding Amar'e. 'Melo, etc. - the Knicks made the playoffs once in his 4 seasons, getting swept in the 1st Round.
We know what happened when he came to LA - no Nash, no SSOL with D12 and rather than MDA adjusting, the players had to basically defy him on the court and run their own system to sqeak into the playoffs . . . then they imploded.
Now he's in HOU and he's a genius again. How much is that MDA and how much is MVP level Harden/additions of E Gordon/Ryan Anderson?
Most coaches put up a good record with talent on the roster and don't win with no talent on the roster.
Great coaches win championships with talent on the roster and overachieve with talent-deficient teams (see: 2005-06 Lakers).
MDA is average. |
How different really is the talent between this year's Houston team and last year's Houston team? You can argue that last year's Houston team underachieved, but what does it say about the roster being essentially the same, but with adding Anderson and Gordon and subtracting Howard, who say what you want, but he was the much more proven player than the inexperienced Capella. Absolutely no one predicted Houston to win 50+ games even with Harden playing because they had no idea what they were going to get out of Anderson and Gordon, two injury prone, inconsistent players before coming to Houston.
Also how can you say that "great coaches overachieve with talent-deficient teams" when Phil had a top 10 player of all time and a triple double threat in Odom, while at the same time dismissing what MDA has done to Houston because they have Harden? The teams that Kobe was on from '05-'07 were a (bleep) sandwich, but by the same logic, why is Houston overachieving when James Harden is nowhere near peak Kobe in terms of talent? |
To put it another way, this is harden instead of Davis with the same secondary guys, and that team didn't make the playoffs.
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