Mike D'Antoni: Mitch and Jim weren't the problem
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject:

Houston is the third best record in the league and would be the one seed in the east.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:55 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
The Logo wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
The Logo wrote:
Geeze it's 2017 and people still don't think MDA is a good coach? Yikes.


He's average. Give him "his guys" in "his system" and his teams will do well. Give him less than his ideal situation and his teams suffer.

Steve Nash was a proven winner/All-Star before he got into MDA's system.
Amar'e was ROY before he got into MDA's system.
Matrix was an All Star/Steals leader before he got into MDA's system.
PHO had a great run during MDA's 4-years - but was it MDA or was it adding Nash to Amar'e/Matrix/Barbosa? Remember, PHO with MDA stunk before adding Nash.

MDA leaves PHO for NYK and - despite the Bricks adding Amar'e. 'Melo, etc. - the Knicks made the playoffs once in his 4 seasons, getting swept in the 1st Round.

We know what happened when he came to LA - no Nash, no SSOL with D12 and rather than MDA adjusting, the players had to basically defy him on the court and run their own system to sqeak into the playoffs . . . then they imploded.

Now he's in HOU and he's a genius again. How much is that MDA and how much is MVP level Harden/additions of E Gordon/Ryan Anderson?

Most coaches put up a good record with talent on the roster and don't win with no talent on the roster.

Great coaches win championships with talent on the roster and overachieve with talent-deficient teams (see: 2005-06 Lakers).

MDA is average.

How different really is the talent between this year's Houston team and last year's Houston team? You can argue that last year's Houston team underachieved, but what does it say about the roster being essentially the same, but with adding Anderson and Gordon and subtracting Howard, who say what you want, but he was the much more proven player than the inexperienced Capella. Absolutely no one predicted Houston to win 50+ games even with Harden playing because they had no idea what they were going to get out of Anderson and Gordon, two injury prone, inconsistent players before coming to Houston.

Also how can you say that "great coaches overachieve with talent-deficient teams" when Phil had a top 10 player of all time and a triple double threat in Odom, while at the same time dismissing what MDA has done to Houston because they have Harden? The teams that Kobe was on from '05-'07 were a (bleep) sandwich, but by the same logic, why is Houston overachieving when James Harden is nowhere near peak Kobe in terms of talent?


To put it another way, this is harden instead of Davis with the same secondary guys, and that team didn't make the playoffs.

Yup and a coach who comes from the same coaching tree and attempts to implement similar offensive principles
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject:

FWIW, mda is extremely well regarded among coaches, who readily admit how visionary his schemes were, and that they all use huge swaths of his ideology, including guys like popovich. He's a rock star at the Sloan conference, and people who follow x and other stuff know that there isn't a guy coaching right now or recently who has had as profound an effect on the way the game is currently played.

Now, there are a lot of components to coaching, and I'm not implying he's better than, say, popovich (the best current coach in the game imo), but he's anything but average.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:08 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, mda is extremely well regarded among coaches, who readily admit how visionary his schemes were, and that they all use huge swaths of his ideology, including guys like popovich. He's a rock star at the Sloan conference, and people who follow x and other stuff know that there isn't a guy coaching right now or recently who has had as profound an effect on the way the game is currently played.

Now, there are a lot of components to coaching, and I'm not implying he's better than, say, popovich (the best current coach in the game imo), but he's anything but average.


Great.

In 16 seasons of coaching, he has 9 sub-.500 seasons. He's 1 for his last 14 in the playoffs. He's awful at making adjustments, both in-game and in-series.

I'll give him credit for importing a wide-open euro offense - but it only works with specific types of players and a specially tailored roster (as opposed to the triangle, which won championships with a G focused team [West/Goodrich], a wing focused team [MJ/Pippen] and a C focused team [Shaq] or the corner set [Spurs/Mavs/Heat]).

Most importantly, MDA doesn't "coach teams up." I know Phil Jackson has a lot of detractors on this board, but the man took a team that, yes, had Kobe & LO, surrounded by luminaries such as Smush Parker, Brian "Puupy Crap" Cook and the inimitable Kwame Brown to the playoffs in consecutive seasons in the WESTERN CONFERENCE.

So what current coaches fit my bill?

Pop (of course)
Scott Brooks
Erik Spoelstra
Doc Rivers
Rick Carlisle
Tom Thibideaux

MDA is somewhere in that next group - not top 20%, not bottom 20%, but somewhere in the middle. Maybe closer to the top than the bottom, but [IMO] he's not "elite.:
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:16 am    Post subject:

MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:22 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, mda is extremely well regarded among coaches, who readily admit how visionary his schemes were, and that they all use huge swaths of his ideology, including guys like popovich. He's a rock star at the Sloan conference, and people who follow x and other stuff know that there isn't a guy coaching right now or recently who has had as profound an effect on the way the game is currently played.

Now, there are a lot of components to coaching, and I'm not implying he's better than, say, popovich (the best current coach in the game imo), but he's anything but average.


Great.

In 16 seasons of coaching, he has 9 sub-.500 seasons. He's 1 for his last 14 in the playoffs. He's awful at making adjustments, both in-game and in-series.

I'll give him credit for importing a wide-open euro offense - but it only works with specific types of players and a specially tailored roster (as opposed to the triangle, which won championships with a G focused team [West/Goodrich], a wing focused team [MJ/Pippen] and a C focused team [Shaq] or the corner set [Spurs/Mavs/Heat]).

Most importantly, MDA doesn't "coach teams up." I know Phil Jackson has a lot of detractors on this board, but the man took a team that, yes, had Kobe & LO, surrounded by luminaries such as Smush Parker, Brian "Puupy Crap" Cook and the inimitable Kwame Brown to the playoffs in consecutive seasons in the WESTERN CONFERENCE.

So what current coaches fit my bill?

Pop (of course)
Scott Brooks
Erik Spoelstra
Doc Rivers
Rick Carlisle
Tom Thibideaux

MDA is somewhere in that next group - not top 20%, not bottom 20%, but somewhere in the middle. Maybe closer to the top than the bottom, but [IMO] he's not "elite.:
unstanding its only opinion but...
Rivers is painfully overrated. He was barely avg when just starting. Garbage before getting kg/ray. That team was 3 self motivated guys . Now clips.

Thibs seems to have been a bit exposed since rose got injured way back.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
FWIW, mda is extremely well regarded among coaches, who readily admit how visionary his schemes were, and that they all use huge swaths of his ideology, including guys like popovich. He's a rock star at the Sloan conference, and people who follow x and other stuff know that there isn't a guy coaching right now or recently who has had as profound an effect on the way the game is currently played.

Now, there are a lot of components to coaching, and I'm not implying he's better than, say, popovich (the best current coach in the game imo), but he's anything but average.


Great.

In 16 seasons of coaching, he has 9 sub-.500 seasons. He's 1 for his last 14 in the playoffs. He's awful at making adjustments, both in-game and in-series.

I'll give him credit for importing a wide-open euro offense - but it only works with specific types of players and a specially tailored roster (as opposed to the triangle, which won championships with a G focused team [West/Goodrich], a wing focused team [MJ/Pippen] and a C focused team [Shaq] or the corner set [Spurs/Mavs/Heat]).

Most importantly, MDA doesn't "coach teams up." I know Phil Jackson has a lot of detractors on this board, but the man took a team that, yes, had Kobe & LO, surrounded by luminaries such as Smush Parker, Brian "Puupy Crap" Cook and the inimitable Kwame Brown to the playoffs in consecutive seasons in the WESTERN CONFERENCE.

So what current coaches fit my bill?

Pop (of course)
Scott Brooks
Erik Spoelstra
Doc Rivers
Rick Carlisle
Tom Thibideaux

MDA is somewhere in that next group - not top 20%, not bottom 20%, but somewhere in the middle. Maybe closer to the top than the bottom, but [IMO] he's not "elite.:
unstanding its only opinion but...
Rivers is painfully overrated. He was barely avg when just starting. Garbage before getting kg/ray. That team was 3 self motivated guys . Now clips.

Thibs seems to have been a bit exposed since rose got injured way back.


I may be biased in favor of Doc, but I base my ranking of him on:

1 - He completely out coached Phil Jackson in the 09 Finals
2 - His work keeping the Magic afloat and developing T-Mac when Grant Hill went down
3 - His ability to have his teams maintain their focus in the face of injuries and adversity. The only season where his all of his core players were healthy during the playoffs was 2008-09 - and he won a ring.

As for Thibs - He lost the DEFENDING MVP FOR ALL OR PARTS OF 5 SEASONS - but his team scrapped and clawed and bit. He never really had Rose - certainly not the 2011 MVP Rose - because of the injuries and that was the player they brought him in to coach.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject:

nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


What? He was incredible at X and O's, sideline/baseline out of bounds plays, and in-game adjustments. I remember Dave Miller the day after he was fired on TWC saying he was the best he's ever seen in that regard.

Just one example:
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


What? He was incredible at X and O's, sideline/baseline out of bounds plays, and in-game adjustments. I remember Dave Miller the day after he was fired on TWC saying he was the best he's ever seen in that regard.

Just one example:


Yeah if anything Xs and Os are his biggest strengths. Awesome drawing plays out of timeouts and out of bounds plays. He just didn't do well with Pau and the LA media, the showtime cartel wanted him to fail, they were relentless in bashing him in the media. If you take a look at who replaced him and who's now at team practices, you can see why.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


What? He was incredible at X and O's, sideline/baseline out of bounds plays, and in-game adjustments. I remember Dave Miller the day after he was fired on TWC saying he was the best he's ever seen in that regard.

Just one example:


I don't hold Dave Miller in much regard. Isn't he coaching high school ball now?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


What? He was incredible at X and O's, sideline/baseline out of bounds plays, and in-game adjustments. I remember Dave Miller the day after he was fired on TWC saying he was the best he's ever seen in that regard.

Just one example:


I don't hold Dave Miller in much regard. Isn't he coaching high school ball now?


And?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject:

The problem with MDA is he just know how to coach his system. Zero adjusments if necessary.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


What? He was incredible at X and O's, sideline/baseline out of bounds plays, and in-game adjustments. I remember Dave Miller the day after he was fired on TWC saying he was the best he's ever seen in that regard.

Just one example:


I don't hold Dave Miller in much regard. Isn't he coaching high school ball now?


And?


And the guy never impressed me.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


What? He was incredible at X and O's, sideline/baseline out of bounds plays, and in-game adjustments. I remember Dave Miller the day after he was fired on TWC saying he was the best he's ever seen in that regard.

Just one example:


For a single play after a timeout he is great, for a playoff series I don't remember about him doing anything like that.


Last edited by nash on Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject:

Popovich had the greatest quote on Dantoni.

Not so, says San Antonio Spurs coach Gregg Popovich, who blamed the media for the guff D'Antoni gets about his teams' defense, or lack thereof.
"I think in this business, it's a small fraternity [in the press] and once you get a reputation for something, it pretty much sticks," Popovich said before the Lakers played the Spurs on Wednesday. "It doesn't matter what you do about it. I think Mike could probably do defensive drills all day long and somebody would still get after him for not caring about defense."

There is this perception fans have about Dantoni that will probably never change unless he wins a ring. I think more people are realizing that Dantoni is a great coach but was just stuck in bad situtaions in New York and LA...

I mean look at New York with Carmelo now...Nobody can coach him and nobody wants him on there team...

As far as the Lakers go...He had a bunch of scrubs including Steve Blake, Kendall, Shawne Williams, Pau, And Nick Young...playing very good team basketball.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject:

danzag wrote:
The problem with MDA is he just know how to coach his system. Zero adjusments if necessary.


This is a bunch of BS....His system is based on ball movement, spacing and finding the best shot. Isnt that what every team wants?

He went to New York and LA where Carmelo and Kobe( until he got made primary ball handler) didn't want to adapt...

There is a reason why Pop is consistently successful ...he has support from the whole organization to coach the team and if players don't fit in or want to play that way they are off the team period.

I don't care how great of a player you think you are...You have to play team ball to win and that's what Dantoni preaches.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject:

andree wrote:
Phil Jackson gave the most accurate opinion about D'Antoni.
It was not long ago after they hired D'Antoni. Phil was invited by Jay Leno to present his book (11 rings). After he told the story that we all know he said:

Mike D'Antony is a good coach. But he has to have the right players.

Theoretically we had the players. Only theoretically (Nash injured, Dwight not willing to play P&R).


LOLOl

Phil is a good coach but he has to have Jordan, Kobe, Shaq. people are ridiculous... Just look at the facts and admit you are wrong about the person its ok...Its better to admit you made a mistake in judgement then to keep trying to justify with stupid logic why you think he is still bad.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject:

Actually if I'm not mistaken, MDA quit on the Knicks midseason while they were out of the playoff picture. It was Mike Woodson who then took over and led the Knicks to the postseason. MDA also quit on the Suns and Lakers before fulfilling the duration of his contract with them.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject:

manlisten wrote:
Actually if I'm not mistaken, MDA quit on the Knicks midseason while they were out of the playoff picture. It was Mike Woodson who then took over and led the Knicks to the postseason. MDA also quit on the Suns and Lakers before fulfilling the duration of his contract with them.


For sure its easy to look at the headline and say he quit..But if you take into account the whole context of his stay in each place you would realize that it was mutual for both parties.

With the suns he clashed with Steve Kerr who later admitted he wish they could have resolved there issues.

With the Lakers he was doomed from the beginning because everyone wanted phil...When he was on the last year of his deal There were reports lakers were going to extend him then there was backlash from fans and media...He didn't want a lame duck year which is understandable so they parted ways mutually.

Nobody can coach Carmelo...The knicks became good with Woodson the one season they added Jason Kidd who almost had a player/coach type role and was the reason they were having success IMO.

You are right to some extent he did leave all those places but its more than he just quit...
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:23 pm    Post subject:

nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


His playoff record, like most coaches' playoff records for the past 30 yrs indicated that they didn't get to coach Magic, Bird, MJ, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe or Lebron. And when I say Kobe, I mean prime Kobe with a championship roster.

The Amare suspension will always make you say WHAT IF. Because that Suns squad would have easily beaten Lebron who had no business in the finals in 07.

When Steve Nash won the MVP. I was like WTF? This is the weakest MVP player in the history of the league. That's the MDA effect.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
greenfrog wrote:
nash wrote:
MDA is kinda offensive genius and a true innovator, but he is poor at Xs and Os, doesn't makes in game adjustments, has problems dealing with media and selling his system to any star that is not a PG. He would be a dream assistant like Tex, but his playoff record tells a lot about him as a coach under pressure. The guy almost lost a series to a terrible Lakers team lead by Kobe, Odon and Smush Parker


What? He was incredible at X and O's, sideline/baseline out of bounds plays, and in-game adjustments. I remember Dave Miller the day after he was fired on TWC saying he was the best he's ever seen in that regard.

Just one example:


I don't hold Dave Miller in much regard. Isn't he coaching high school ball now?


And?


And the guy never impressed me.


He was the only person on that channel (so of course they fired him) who brought any kind of technical analysis to the table. The fact that he's doing something he loves and helping kids in the process, I doubt it's a money thing but who knows, I think is a compliment. I know James and Antawn wouldn't and couldn't pull off that gig (well they could by virtue of being famous and rolling the ball out on the floor, but they wouldn't be good at it).
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