Mike D'Antoni: Mitch and Jim weren't the problem
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject:

My opinion remains the same.

His second season was solid. I said it at the time, that if he had a Clippers like team he would do well. A MVP level point guard. Now he has it again, he looks great.

His first season was (bleep). He did horrible. Maybe not his fault competely as the Lakers chose him and knew what system he brought to the table. Pace and space using Kobe as a PG? Pau as a stretch 4 shooting 3's? Come on that was a BS plan and we all know it. Dwight was made the scape goat, but Dwight whines wherever he goes about post touches. Most bigs do. The problem was the system in year 1 it sucked for that team. He doesn't handle stars well. The league is filled with stars who are me first. You need to know how to handle them, and I don't think it's his strong suit.

Still, he's done really well in Houston and good for him.. Seems to me he's a really good coach if he has a franchise point guard, but if he doesn't he struggles. He struggled with Melo, Kobe, Pau, Dwight. Something common there. None of them are franchise point guards. He did great with Nash, and has done very well with Harden so far.

Where I still don't like his offense is how reliant he is on that point. Once the playoffs roll, I see teams trapping Harden, and who is he going to ask to run the plays. Lou? Gordon? Even his Suns teams always seemed to reliant on Nash. Championship teams tend to have 2-3 playmakers sharing the playmaking duties almost equally. Golden State for example (BEFORE Durant). Or Spurs offense with TP, Ginobli all taking turns.

But yeah give the guy a great guard who can play point at the top of the arc, D'Antoni is a top 10 coach in the league. Without, he's pretty useless in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:44 pm    Post subject:

i think you guys are ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
i think you guys are ridiculous.


You are the LAST person on this board who should be saying such things.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject:

City_Dawg wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
i think you guys are ridiculous.


You are the LAST person on this board who should be saying such things.

well in this case, i'm just pointing out that you guys are complaining about how bad a coach dantoni was, and i'm pointing out what he said in the article that the veto cost us 10 years.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject:

they were not the problem per se... their stupid basketball decisions the last few years that blew up in their faces were...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject:

rang15 wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
MDA should only be hired when he has a player that can run the entire offense and pretty much be the coach on the floor. Like Steve Nash and Harden who are wizards at getting everyone involved and getting theirs too.

You put MDA on a team where he doesn't have that "floor general", and he's screwed. I'll give him credit that he gives his floor general free reign on the entire offense as opposed to limiting them.


To be fair he was hired when we had (what we thought was a healthy) Steve Nash.


Nash was already hurt when we signed MDA. Nash went down in the second game of the season, iirc, and Mike Brown wasn't fired until game five.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
rang15 wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
MDA should only be hired when he has a player that can run the entire offense and pretty much be the coach on the floor. Like Steve Nash and Harden who are wizards at getting everyone involved and getting theirs too.

You put MDA on a team where he doesn't have that "floor general", and he's screwed. I'll give him credit that he gives his floor general free reign on the entire offense as opposed to limiting them.


To be fair he was hired when we had (what we thought was a healthy) Steve Nash.


Nash was already hurt when we signed MDA. Nash went down in the second game of the season, iirc, and Mike Brown wasn't fired until game five.


I think Kobe was that floor general.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
tox wrote:
LakerEric wrote:
4 years of hell! Jim and Mitch were definitely a problem. Mitch was great but just fell behind the times.
What's the alternative to "4 years of hell"?
Somehow, I never hear about how the grand plan that should've been enacted to win around the corpse of Kobe taking 40% of the cap while being a huge net negative player while also setting us up for the future as we were a team utterly deprived of assets.

But please, I'm all ears. Maybe they should've convinced LeBron and Durant to come? Magic was right all along! Can't believe Jim and Mitch didn't think of that!


Mitch and Jim did what most fans would have wanted, they tried to reload, and it cost them a lot when the first move of the reload got vetoed and not only made them have to go for a riskier move, but it cost them a premium player in Odom with not much in return as a result of the veto, and it certainly changed Pau's motivation. They then tried a different reload, the "let's send Kobe out on a playoff team with his buddy that probably can't win it all and will delay our rebuild" plan. But that was not to be either.

But at the end of the day, the reload failed, and failed with a huge price tag still due, and at that point bottoming out and starting over was the right thing to do. ANd that's what they did.


It's amazing but totally true. Also worth mentioning that they successfully retooled scouting right when it became most important.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
My opinion remains the same.

His second season was solid. I said it at the time, that if he had a Clippers like team he would do well. A MVP level point guard. Now he has it again, he looks great.

His first season was (bleep). He did horrible. Maybe not his fault competely as the Lakers chose him and knew what system he brought to the table. Pace and space using Kobe as a PG? Pau as a stretch 4 shooting 3's? Come on that was a BS plan and we all know it. Dwight was made the scape goat, but Dwight whines wherever he goes about post touches. Most bigs do. The problem was the system in year 1 it sucked for that team. He doesn't handle stars well. The league is filled with stars who are me first. You need to know how to handle them, and I don't think it's his strong suit.

Still, he's done really well in Houston and good for him.. Seems to me he's a really good coach if he has a franchise point guard, but if he doesn't he struggles. He struggled with Melo, Kobe, Pau, Dwight. Something common there. None of them are franchise point guards. He did great with Nash, and has done very well with Harden so far.

Where I still don't like his offense is how reliant he is on that point. Once the playoffs roll, I see teams trapping Harden, and who is he going to ask to run the plays. Lou? Gordon? Even his Suns teams always seemed to reliant on Nash. Championship teams tend to have 2-3 playmakers sharing the playmaking duties almost equally. Golden State for example (BEFORE Durant). Or Spurs offense with TP, Ginobli all taking turns.

But yeah give the guy a great guard who can play point at the top of the arc, D'Antoni is a top 10 coach in the league. Without, he's pretty useless in my opinion.


I don't think he struggled with Kobe at all, Kobe had his Vino year under D'Antoni. Pau was who he struggled with the most and that's because Pau didn't buy in.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
tox wrote:
LakerEric wrote:
4 years of hell! Jim and Mitch were definitely a problem. Mitch was great but just fell behind the times.
What's the alternative to "4 years of hell"?
Somehow, I never hear about how the grand plan that should've been enacted to win around the corpse of Kobe taking 40% of the cap while being a huge net negative player while also setting us up for the future as we were a team utterly deprived of assets.

But please, I'm all ears. Maybe they should've convinced LeBron and Durant to come? Magic was right all along! Can't believe Jim and Mitch didn't think of that!


Mitch and Jim did what most fans would have wanted, they tried to reload, and it cost them a lot when the first move of the reload got vetoed and not only made them have to go for a riskier move, but it cost them a premium player in Odom with not much in return as a result of the veto, and it certainly changed Pau's motivation. They then tried a different reload, the "let's send Kobe out on a playoff team with his buddy that probably can't win it all and will delay our rebuild" plan. But that was not to be either.

But at the end of the day, the reload failed, and failed with a huge price tag still due, and at that point bottoming out and starting over was the right thing to do. ANd that's what they did.
i've been saying this for a long time. but people on here and fans all over just dont want to face these facts. if they do. they can't blame the people they can see "mitch, jim" They will have to lay blame on those crying owners that changed sterns mind to make him nix the cp3 deal. they will have to be mad at the crazy injury bugs we had to deal with for season after season after season.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject:

bandiger wrote:
kwase wrote:
Jim was the problem and so were you. He should have never been hired in the first place.


True, wrong coach with that roster. Should have just hired Phil or just stick with Bickerstaff for the season


You are absolutely correct.

Wrong coach for that roster.

This falls on the FO and another example of their poor decision making.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
MDA was the wrong coach for that roster....
I think he would've fit in better with the current roster.
He would've been amazing with Dlo, Slim, JC and Jrock. Shame. He is a decent HC.


He would have been a better fit with the current roster, but IMO he's not a very good HC. He's a poor leader and was unwilling or unable to adapt to a roster that very obviously wasn't suited to run his offense. He's succeeding now because Harden is at the absolute zenith of his career and he's allowing him to do everything...ala Russell Westbrook in OKC. Harden is a top 50 player of all time at this peak, his team should be in the playoffs regardless of the coaching or his teammates.

Anyway, pre lou trade our offense was great...better than a lot of playoff teams this year...our problem is that we don't have good perimeter defenders, no rim protection and we don't make enough effort on that end and do the basics like box out. Pringles aint gonna help with that...


Man. Houston is on pace to win 57 games with either Eric Gordon or Ryan Anderson as their 2nd best player. Literally the same two guys that Anthony Davis couldn't get to the playoffs with.

Mike D'Antoni was the person who was right, screaming amongst a chorus of people within the Lakers organization...both on the court and off...who were wrong. Remember what an (bleep) he was for having Pau Gasol shoot (gasp!) 28 threes in a season? That same guy shot 69 last year and has already shot 52 this year under probably the greatest coach in NBA history.

No, he's not a leader of men, but people were chanting "We Want Phil!" in this guy's first game. This organization, its players, and its fan base never gave him a chance to succeed here, because of their hubris. And we ended up getting what we deserved.

At least we got high draft picks out of it.


AMEN!!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:24 pm    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
City_Dawg wrote:
Silverscreenandroll also had an article about this:

http://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2017/3/3/14805386/la-lakers-news-jim-buss-mitch-kupchak-werent-problem-mike-dantoni-magic-johnson-kobe-bryant

One thing that i'd like to point out:

Quote:
Johnson seems to have people under the assumption that his smile and charm might be able to convince athletes to leave money on the table in an era of the most empowered athletes we’ve ever seen.

D’Antoni is absolutely right to wonder how that might play out and, when it’s put that way, you can’t help but recognize how potential moronic it might be to think the Lakers are simply falling back on that exceptionalism they can’t seem to move on from.


And jives with my feelings on Magic's hire. He's far from a sure thing. While Pelinka can hopefully buoy that, I still think the Lakers greatest asset right now is their drafting and scouting department. Its gravely important that we hit in the draft and actually start winning games. That will be a greater draw for this team than Pelinka's connections or Magic's smile.
Got that right homie.


Which was developed by Jim and Mitch
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject:

MJST wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
MDA was the wrong coach for that roster....
I think he would've fit in better with the current roster.
He would've been amazing with Dlo, Slim, JC and Jrock. Shame. He is a decent HC.


He would have been a better fit with the current roster, but IMO he's not a very good HC. He's a poor leader and was unwilling or unable to adapt to a roster that very obviously wasn't suited to run his offense. He's succeeding now because Harden is at the absolute zenith of his career and he's allowing him to do everything...ala Russell Westbrook in OKC. Harden is a top 50 player of all time at this peak, his team should be in the playoffs regardless of the coaching or his teammates.

Anyway, pre lou trade our offense was great...better than a lot of playoff teams this year...our problem is that we don't have good perimeter defenders, no rim protection and we don't make enough effort on that end and do the basics like box out. Pringles aint gonna help with that...


Man. Houston is on pace to win 57 games with either Eric Gordon or Ryan Anderson as their 2nd best player. Literally the same two guys that Anthony Davis couldn't get to the playoffs with.

Mike D'Antoni was the person who was right, screaming amongst a chorus of people within the Lakers organization...both on the court and off...who were wrong. Remember what an (bleep) he was for having Pau Gasol shoot (gasp!) 28 threes in a season? That same guy shot 69 last year and has already shot 52 this year under probably the greatest coach in NBA history.

No, he's not a leader of men, but people were chanting "We Want Phil!" in this guy's first game. This organization, its players, and its fan base never gave him a chance to succeed here, because of their hubris. And we ended up getting what we deserved.

At least we got high draft picks out of it.


Sad thing is..

The last brilliant move of Jerry Buss will never get credit now.

Jerry Buss saw the direction the league was headed, away from the "Triangle systems" and was headed towards a pick and roll style game that D'Antoni ran. He saw the league was headed more towards the small ball style and away from the 'post big with little defense' styles.

When D'Antoni came in and tried to make Pau into a stretch 4 and turn Dwight into a pick and roll 5 (despite him no longer wanting to be a pick and roll 5) he was headed in the direction the league was going.


The sad thing is, had it worked out, had Dwight got his head out of his [expletive], had Nash ever recovered, had Pau stopped picking and choosing when he'd sit out of games cause he was avoiding the trade deadline (because he WOULD have been sent for Ryan Anderson and some change) then we may be looking at the move much differently by the time the Warriors came along.

Think about it. The vision for the Lakers after the Spurs beat them was getting Chris Paul and Dwight Howard along with Kobe and a different style to take the Lakers into this next generation, and once CP3 was taken away, Nash replaced him.


The biggest thing is, Jerry Buss saw the direction the league was headed 2-3 seasons before anyone else did, and when the league finally caught on. D'Antoni was let go of, and Bryon Scott(Jeanie's pick) and his 'old school style' was brought in, and for two seasons the Lakers remained behind the rest of the league in style as the league moved onward and the Lakers remained stuck in the past after being bashed for moving towards what WAS the actual future of the league.


So the most disheartening thing to me really, is that it didn't work out. Because instead of the last thing Jerry Buss did being the last visionary move he made in terms of where the league was headed, it instead becomes about his son and his daughter disagreeing about his daughters boyfriend and her using it to get him ousted as head of basketball operations...

THAT is the most heartbreaking thing to me actually. Especially when I think about D'Antoni's time here.

Yet years later here we stand, watching what Phil's style is doing in New York, what Okafor's old school big, is accomplishing in Philadelphia, and what the Warriors and Rockets are doing, with D'Antoni's style....



This
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
kikanga wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
tox wrote:
TBF if we didn't have D'Antoni as coach in '13-'14 we might have gotten Wiggins/ Jabari/ Embiid


These were our Top 10 guys in minutes played that year. People thought he was terrible for winning 27 games w/this team.

1) Jodie Meeks
2) Wesley Johnson
3) Pau Gasol
4) Nick Young
5) Kendall Marshall
6) Jordan Hill
7) Ryan Kelly
8) Robert Sacre
9) Jordan Farmar
10) Xavier Henry


He was "terrible" for what he did with that 2012-2013 roster. And for costing us Dwight and Pau and THEN leaving.
But he overachieved with that roster you mentioned.


Sure he failed with that 2012-2013 roster. But not sure anyone else could have succeeded, including Phil. You had an injured Nash, a hobbled and whiny Dwight, a moping Pau. Maybe Phil improves the attitudes of the latter two, but it doesn't change the fact that they had too many liabilities to play defense as a group. Plus, the triangle offense was already out of date at this point, and would have meant more Dwight post touches. Could Phil have successfully limited Kobe's minutes and prevented that injury? Maybe, but maybe not.


People also underestimate how playing PG in MDAs system improved Kobes play that year
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject:

it was a fine plan we just lost the 50/50 bet on Nash being healthy.

MDA was only here cuz of nash.

Nash was here because kobe just fumbled us out of game after game with his busted hands. It was so bad even kobe was looking forward to playing off ball more.

when nash went down it was over because mda just leaned on kobe who should not have been a primary ball handler.

Then dwight came in wanting to compete with the other greats from the low block - instead of win totals; but he was being groomed and mda disrespected pau at the same time making it worse.

MDA isn't "bad"; he's just not adaptable/flexible. Slight adjustments and he'd have had a ring before the warriors.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject:

foshowtime wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
MDA was the wrong coach for that roster....
I think he would've fit in better with the current roster.
He would've been amazing with Dlo, Slim, JC and Jrock. Shame. He is a decent HC.


He would have been a better fit with the current roster, but IMO he's not a very good HC. He's a poor leader and was unwilling or unable to adapt to a roster that very obviously wasn't suited to run his offense. He's succeeding now because Harden is at the absolute zenith of his career and he's allowing him to do everything...ala Russell Westbrook in OKC. Harden is a top 50 player of all time at this peak, his team should be in the playoffs regardless of the coaching or his teammates.

Anyway, pre lou trade our offense was great...better than a lot of playoff teams this year...our problem is that we don't have good perimeter defenders, no rim protection and we don't make enough effort on that end and do the basics like box out. Pringles aint gonna help with that...


Man. Houston is on pace to win 57 games with either Eric Gordon or Ryan Anderson as their 2nd best player. Literally the same two guys that Anthony Davis couldn't get to the playoffs with.

Mike D'Antoni was the person who was right, screaming amongst a chorus of people within the Lakers organization...both on the court and off...who were wrong. Remember what an (bleep) he was for having Pau Gasol shoot (gasp!) 28 threes in a season? That same guy shot 69 last year and has already shot 52 this year under probably the greatest coach in NBA history.

No, he's not a leader of men, but people were chanting "We Want Phil!" in this guy's first game. This organization, its players, and its fan base never gave him a chance to succeed here, because of their hubris. And we ended up getting what we deserved.

At least we got high draft picks out of it.


AMEN!!


Gosh, GT's post is spot on. I actually had forgotten about the We Want Phil chants. In addition, I believe MDA's first game involved a situation where he called for a substitution for Kobe, and Kobe was like nahhhh, and waved it off. Hahaha. In his first game! We didn't know it then, but looking back, totally indicative of the MDA era as a whole.

GT is right. The organization never gave MDA a chance, particularly in not giving him the right pieces for his system. I mean, you don't hire a defensive minded coach and then sign Nick Young as your prized offseason acquisition.

MDA won 27 games with Jodie Meeks, Kendall Marshall, Wesley Johnson, Nick Young, all playing more minutes than DLO, Pau Gasol missing 20 games, and Ryan Kelly, Shawne Williams, Jordan Hill averaging 50% more minutes than Larry Nance Jr. Heck, Robert Sacre played more MPG than Larry Nance Jr. LOL.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:50 pm    Post subject:

Mike D'Antoni: Mitch and Jim weren't the problem

Yes, they were part of the problem and so were you, Mike D'fence-is-a-dirtyword-Antonio!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:27 pm    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
Mike D'Antoni: Mitch and Jim weren't the problem

Yes, they were part of the problem and so were you, Mike D'fence-is-a-dirtyword-Antonio!


"You could always find another team to root for" - Mike D'antoni.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject:

Nothing more than lame-brain Pringles trying to be sarcastic.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
tox wrote:
TBF if we didn't have D'Antoni as coach in '13-'14 we might have gotten Wiggins/ Jabari/ Embiid


These were our Top 10 guys in minutes played that year. People thought he was terrible for winning 27 games w/this team.

1) Jodie Meeks
2) Wesley Johnson
3) Pau Gasol
4) Nick Young
5) Kendall Marshall
6) Jordan Hill
7) Ryan Kelly
8) Robert Sacre
9) Jordan Farmar
10) Xavier Henry


He was an incredible overachiever given that roster talent. I always felt that was overlooked.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject:

Yumyumcha wrote:
unleasHell wrote:
Mike D'Antoni: Mitch and Jim weren't the problem

Yes, they were part of the problem and so were you, Mike D'fence-is-a-dirtyword-Antonio!


"You could always find another team to root for" - Mike D'antoni.


I wanted to slap him in the face and tell him he could find another team to coach. I mean, I was pissed when he said that!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject:

While D'antoni wasn't a good defensive coach, I think many exaggerate his ineptitude in that regard. Obviously if a team plays a style where they score faster, there will be alot more possessions in the game that the team has to defend the opponent, which somewhat-falsely inflates the points allowed.

Across all his seasons, his median team rank in points allowed per possession is #19. Nothing special, but not worst-in-the-league-bad like some casual fans and ex-jock's in the media like to pretend.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
tox wrote:
TBF if we didn't have D'Antoni as coach in '13-'14 we might have gotten Wiggins/ Jabari/ Embiid


These were our Top 10 guys in minutes played that year. People thought he was terrible for winning 27 games w/this team.

1) Jodie Meeks
2) Wesley Johnson
3) Pau Gasol
4) Nick Young
5) Kendall Marshall
6) Jordan Hill
7) Ryan Kelly
8) Robert Sacre
9) Jordan Farmar
10) Xavier Henry


Ooof, worse than I dared remember. What jumps out to me is how punitive the risk-reward ratio proved for putting those 30M eggs in one basket too long.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:

unleasHell wrote:
Mike D'Antoni: Mitch and Jim weren't the problem

Yes, they were part of the problem and so were you, Mike D'fence-is-a-dirtyword-Antonio!


Isn't Luke's defense worse than Dantoni?
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