LA Times: Jeanie Buss thwarts initial efforts from brothers to take over the Lakers
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject:

Daphanabe wrote:
Check out this article on Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/baileybrautigan/2016/03/21/where-all-that-money-comes-from-nba-team-valuations-visualized/#3db03da2444f) -- breaks down value by team on four distinct components: Market, Sport (rev share), Arena, and Brand. Business side takes care of the latter two -- for the Lakers around 40% of its value comes from these. Yes, not all of the value comes from the business side, but to say the business side is simple is an over-simplification to reinforce a bias that Jeanie's job is easy.

Am not saying its not, but from your post, there is nothing that highlights why the operational side is 'much harder' aside from your stating that it is.


First of all, get a grip about "Jeanie bias." Some of you are so wrapped up in message board arguments that you are constantly looking for biases and agendas. I didn't even mention Jeanie in my post. I'm talking about Magic.

If you want a more extended discussion of this topic, check out Soccernomics, which has an extended discussion of the idea that the major Euro soccer teams are "big business." They aren't. The same is true of US sports teams. A team's footprint in the community is much larger than its foot.

Anyway, my point is that Magic's business acumen doesn't have much to do with the operational side of a basketball team. The business side is small and non-complicated compared to other businesses. I have no doubt that Jeanie does a great job with it. Maybe Magic can contribute something on that side, but I doubt Jeanie needs the help.

On the operational side, Magic's business acumen has only limited relevance. He and Pelinka will either get the job done, or they won't. The ability to build and manage a successful business -- or in general the ability to make money -- has little to do with it. Magic and Pelinka are going to need to make correct player evaluations, both in terms of who we want and who we want to keep. They are going to need a strategy for navigating the artificial world of the CBA. Let's hope they get it right.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:12 am    Post subject:

Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
msb212 wrote:
The people who are bitching and moaning about Jeanie in this thread are oblivious to the fact that the only part of the team which has functioned properly since the death of Dr Buss is the business side - jeanie's purview. They signed the most lucrative tv deal in NBA history. Despite their record, ticket prices remain at the top of the league. Sponsorships continue to rake in big bucks. And, Jeanie was smart enough to know that she needed a basketball expert she could trust - enter Magic.

Nows look at the basketball side - a complete failure in every respect. Worst record in laker history.

And you all are complaining who won? please.


And the "business" aspect is also why you gave $48 million to Kobe. Nobody, including Jeannie, had the cajones to NOT extend Kobe. We've been replenishing more top flight rookies because we hit rock bottom. The other way to do it is to be middle of the road with no top flight rookies, which I've been through in the 90's. I was very critical of West for hanging on to everybody until they either retired or walk, and we may be on a 29 yr drought had Shaq resigned with Orlando. West was lucky, there is no exact science to this. I like where we were heading with all the top picks, and I thought Mitch/Jim deserved more time than half a season post Kobe. We're only 6 yrs separated from the last title. West and Buss had a longer drought between 88-2000.


You act as though the 48M to Kobe came out of your pocket. It didn't. There was not a single free agent we couldnt afford as a result of that deal, who wanted to come - now, if the basketball side hadn't had their heads up their asses, perhaps that would have been a different story. But I live in reality.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject:

TransientTexan wrote:
msb212 wrote:
The people who are bitching and moaning about Jeanie in this thread are oblivious to the fact that the only part of the team which has functioned properly since the death of Dr Buss is the business side - jeanie's purview. They signed the most lucrative tv deal in NBA history. Despite their record, ticket prices remain at the top of the league. Sponsorships continue to rake in big bucks. And, Jeanie was smart enough to know that she needed a basketball expert she could trust - enter Magic.

Nows look at the basketball side - a complete failure in every respect. Worst record in laker history.

And you all are complaining who won? please.


It's ludicrous to compare the business side to the basketball side. The basketball side of the NBA deliberately punishes successful teams (causing the need for rebuilds), while the business side is a free market for the most part. The business side in LA plays with a stacked deck.


Sorry, the only thing that's ludicrous is your comment. Why shouldn't they be compared? Our inability to attract free agents was based on a terrible basketball message - see: Aldridge. See: Durant It wasn't because the league was punishing us.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:05 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.


But...but...but... I thought Kevin Ding was a Jeanie mouthpiece! This doesn't fit my worldview!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject:

WWBD wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.


But...but...but... I thought Kevin Ding was a Jeanie mouthpiece! This doesn't fit my worldview!


Lol.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject:

msb212 wrote:
TransientTexan wrote:
msb212 wrote:
The people who are bitching and moaning about Jeanie in this thread are oblivious to the fact that the only part of the team which has functioned properly since the death of Dr Buss is the business side - jeanie's purview. They signed the most lucrative tv deal in NBA history. Despite their record, ticket prices remain at the top of the league. Sponsorships continue to rake in big bucks. And, Jeanie was smart enough to know that she needed a basketball expert she could trust - enter Magic.

Nows look at the basketball side - a complete failure in every respect. Worst record in laker history.

And you all are complaining who won? please.


It's ludicrous to compare the business side to the basketball side. The basketball side of the NBA deliberately punishes successful teams (causing the need for rebuilds), while the business side is a free market for the most part. The business side in LA plays with a stacked deck.


Sorry, the only thing that's ludicrous is your comment. Why shouldn't they be compared? Our inability to attract free agents was based on a terrible basketball message - see: Aldridge. See: Durant It wasn't because the league was punishing us.


That's a fair critique, although it is also fair to say that charisma and a great pitch don't seem to matter when you're team is awful record-wise, or else we would be seeing more prime free agents going to bad teams. That's the inconsistency I've always pointed out to those who want to tank the season, and then want to be angry that no free agents want to come, and think it's about the pitch or the pitch people.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject:

That said, if the Lakers are back to a level where a free agent should and would consider them, there's little to no doubt that a Magic/Pelinka duo is a sales upgrade in a major way.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:27 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.


Haven't read it yet.

That means... Something
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.


Ya, I'd say that's a bit concerning. Imagine if you swapped Jeanie for Jim in that sentence.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject:

I certainly hope this Ron Pelinsky guy is as good as Rob Pelinka was supposed to be.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
That said, if the Lakers are back to a level where a free agent should and would consider them, there's little to no doubt that a Magic/Pelinka duo is a sales upgrade in a major way.


Yes, it is.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject:

The Lebrons wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.


Ya, I'd say that's a bit concerning. Imagine if you swapped Jeanie for Jim in that sentence.


I would be interested in knowing when this happened. If it was recent, I can see where she was coming from.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
That said, if the Lakers are back to a level where a free agent should and would consider them, there's little to no doubt that a Magic/Pelinka duo is a sales upgrade in a major way.


Yes, it is.


The question becomes do they make the right draft picks and transactions to get to that point, because as I said, it only really matters if it is a relatively equal competition otherwise. I don't doubt Jerry West had a significant role in landing Durant in Golden state. But his pitch falls on deaf ears if he's in Memphis.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
That said, if the Lakers are back to a level where a free agent should and would consider them, there's little to no doubt that a Magic/Pelinka duo is a sales upgrade in a major way.


Yes, it is.


The question becomes do they make the right draft picks and transactions to get to that point, because as I said, it only really matters if it is a relatively equal competition otherwise. I don't doubt Jerry West had a significant role in landing Durant in Golden state. But his pitch falls on deaf ears if he's in Memphis.


I like the idea of Pelinka being analogous to Myers and, in conjunction with Magic, having the ability to understand the concerns and needs of players. Supposedly, this is what Jerry brought to the table in the Durant talks. He discussed what it was like to play on a team that was always falling short (in Jerry's case, in the '60s).
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
We often refer to sports teams as big business, but they really aren't. The typical NBA team produces less revenue than some Walmarts, and they sell fewer tickets than a large multiplex movie theater. It isn't that complicated.

AH is right on this point.
Sports teams have huge valuations because they're like diamonds - they are rare. There's only 30 NBA teams, and there are only so many cities that can support NBA teams.
owners pay a premium for that scarcity.

but, NBA teams don't make a lot of money for their valuations
Lakers are worth an estimated $3billion. Their Operating Profit is $119.2m EBIT (before interest payments and taxes). Reversing the math on what the trust pays each kid per year, that probably works out to a net profit of about $90m per year after taxes/interest.
$90m profit from $3b valuation is 3%.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
The Lebrons wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.


Ya, I'd say that's a bit concerning. Imagine if you swapped Jeanie for Jim in that sentence.


I would be interested in knowing when this happened. If it was recent, I can see where she was coming from.


I LOVE Jerry West.

He will be 79 years old soon.

Let him give his advice to Ryan - Jerry doesn't need a formal role.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject:

The Lebrons wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
Another Ding hit on Kupchak. What's the point? Not going to link.


There's is an interesting snippet about Jeanie though:

Jerry West was interested in returning to the Lakers, where son Ryan has carved out a useful role with the old and new regime, but, though Jeanie Buss will forever revere Jerry, he didn't match her vision for the future, according to NBA sources.


Ya, I'd say that's a bit concerning. Imagine if you swapped Jeanie for Jim in that sentence.

not really.
I'd suspect that Jeanie was more concerned that Jerry West was too old to really connect with today's players.
let's remember that one of the comments from agents about Mitch was that he was too old school to get things done in today's NBA ("last team that refuses to engage before the official start of free agency" - and other words to that effect)
Jerry West is an adviser in GSW, not the primary shot caller - so, a direct comparison isn't accurate
FWIW: I'd guess that Magic can sub in nicely for West in a "sell Durant" situation
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
We often refer to sports teams as big business, but they really aren't. The typical NBA team produces less revenue than some Walmarts, and they sell fewer tickets than a large multiplex movie theater. It isn't that complicated.

AH is right on this point.
Sports teams have huge valuations because they're like diamonds - they are rare. There's only 30 NBA teams, and there are only so many cities that can support NBA teams.
owners pay a premium for that scarcity.

but, NBA teams don't make a lot of money for their valuations
Lakers are worth an estimated $3billion. Their Operating Profit is $119.2m EBIT (before interest payments and taxes). Reversing the math on what the trust pays each kid per year, that probably works out to a net profit of about $90m per year after taxes/interest.
$90m profit from $3b valuation is 3%.


Perspective.

No, the individual teams are not global concerns like Bechtel or Microsoft, but they are BIG businesses.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193704/revenue-of-national-basketball-association-teams-in-2010/

The Lakers' revenue in 2015/16 was $333 million dollars, second only to the Knicks. That's more than BBCN Bank did in the same time frame. EBITDA was better for the Lakers, too.

Interesting question - is the Lakers revenue sharing payment counted on the expense side? They paid out close to $50 million dollars last year - that's about $6 million per Buss kid that they are penalized.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject:

Still going through the Ding article

Quote:
How much Kupchak's decision to spend last summer was tied to Jim Buss' promise to step down if the Lakers didn't reach contention this season is difficult to quantify, but Jeanie sure didn't take it as being loyal to the Lakers.


Wait a second...

What exactly is Ding implying here?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject:

P.K. wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
We often refer to sports teams as big business, but they really aren't. The typical NBA team produces less revenue than some Walmarts, and they sell fewer tickets than a large multiplex movie theater. It isn't that complicated.

AH is right on this point.
Sports teams have huge valuations because they're like diamonds - they are rare. There's only 30 NBA teams, and there are only so many cities that can support NBA teams.
owners pay a premium for that scarcity.

but, NBA teams don't make a lot of money for their valuations
Lakers are worth an estimated $3billion. Their Operating Profit is $119.2m EBIT (before interest payments and taxes). Reversing the math on what the trust pays each kid per year, that probably works out to a net profit of about $90m per year after taxes/interest.
$90m profit from $3b valuation is 3%.


Another way of looking at it is to ask what NBA teams actually DO. Aside from the purely operational aspects (coaching, practicing, traveling, etc.), the teams don't really do that much. Basically, they are the promoters for 41 home games per year. I don't mean to suggest that this is simple or that it does not require a fair amount of acumen. But it is largely just a marketing operation combined with ticket sales. The TV and radio broadcasts are run by third parties. The arena is run by whoever owns the arena.

Again, I don't want to overstate my point. This isn't something that could be run out of Jeanie's garage. There are a fair number of moving parts, from marketing to TV contracts to ticket sales to charitable functions. Jeanie and her team seem to have all of that in good shape.

The reason why I made the point is that there really isn't anything for Magic to add to that side of the business. He can help a little with PR and the like, of course, but his business acumen isn't needed on the non-operational side.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject:

HumanVictoryCigar wrote:
I certainly hope this Ron Pelinsky guy is as good as Rob Pelinka was supposed to be.


That was funny. I was like what the heck. Nobody corrected her either.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:
Still going through the Ding article

Quote:
How much Kupchak's decision to spend last summer was tied to Jim Buss' promise to step down if the Lakers didn't reach contention this season is difficult to quantify, but Jeanie sure didn't take it as being loyal to the Lakers.


Wait a second...

What exactly is Ding implying here?


That Mitch rolled the dice on nonsensical deals to try and save Jim's job.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:32 pm    Post subject:

I will link it http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2697145-lakers-show-loyalty-matters-more-than-family-with-new-magic-pelinka-front-office

Quote:
The GM position is all about the details, and despite Johnson's previous verbal takedowns targeting Jim, Jeanie and Magic weren't happy with reports of Kupchak's shortcomings alongside Jim, either.

There was too much evidence of Kupchak's work ethic weakening, his knowledge of the league's players being less than encyclopedic, his inability to play the behind-the-scenes game to get you-scratch-my-back benefits from agents, his tendency to trade draft picks to make bad contracts go away and his outright complacency in managing the draft-pick protections in the Steve Nash trade.


So the assertion is that Mitch had gotten fat & lazy and wasn't giving due diligence to the work.

I haven't paid attention enough to support or naysay that, but it has been an ongoing concern of Mitch supporters like me that he was not as active as we wanted in moving expiring contracts or squeezing the extra drop out of deals.

I go allllllllllll the way back to the Gary Payton deal to Boston. Not only did Mitch get punked out of LG Legend Marcus Banks, but we ended up tossing in the draft pick that became Rajon Rondo, because Mitch let Payton & Ainge intimidate him into changing the announced deal.
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