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DLO and JC - Do they have the "Championship Accountability" on D
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Vancouver Fan
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:48 am Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:

At what point did Dirk, LBJ, Curry, and Harden

reach "Championship Accountability" on D? For some guys it's a process.

Lebron can play lock down D when he wants to. Especially in the playoffs.
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LakersRGolden
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:13 pm Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:

LakersRGolden wrote:

At what point did Dirk, LBJ, Curry, and Harden

reach "Championship Accountability" on D? For some guys it's a process.

Lebron can play lock down D when he wants to. Especially in the playoffs.

And how many seasons was it before he did it consistently?

Vancouver Fan
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:

Vancouver Fan wrote:

LakersRGolden wrote:

At what point did Dirk, LBJ, Curry, and Harden

reach "Championship Accountability" on D? For some guys it's a process.

Lebron can play lock down D when he wants to. Especially in the playoffs.

And how many seasons was it before he did it consistently?

True. I was just pointing out that LeBron can lock it down when he wants to, especially since he's been winning chips. I hear you though.
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TDRock
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:26 pm Post subject:

I don't know how they would have "championship accountability" when I've never even been on a winning team. It's one of the things that makes it difficult for me to assess how I feel about the young guys. I see talent for sure, but I don't feel like I've ever seen them in a fully functional (or even semi-functional) situation. IMO championship teams are a culture that has to be cultivated which is why I am so anti-tanking (even though I know losing is how we got DLO in the first place, yes I know) _________________ #IStillBelieveTaurean

Omar Little
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:27 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I am simply basing it on how many times DLo gets beat on the ball....with ease. Luke does not do it as much recently, but he often cross matched DLo onto the lesser perimeter player earlier in season.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

No, the numbers don't account for JC "looking" like a better defender to you, getting beat more than Dlo, but you not noticing, because you're focused in on the other guy's flaws, real or imagined.
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tox
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:15 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

Actually, RPM does exactly that. Russell fares poorly but not that poorly on that. JC is AWFUL.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/1
Russell: -0.89
Clarkson: -2.44

Russell gets beaten on occasion, but he's solid at defending the pick and roll now. His problem seems to be miscommunication with his bigs on icing the screen.

Clarkson is just terrible, and I have no idea why since he looked good in preseason.

All the stats agree that Russell is way better, and I see that as well. He's been legit solid on that end since the all-star break. And believe me, I call him out on poor defense as much as anyone, as that's the main thing I want to see from him. Defensive motor

Practice
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:40 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

During the post game interview after the Suns game Russell mentioned that he noticed that lack of communication from both him and the players around him and tried to change that, which is what lead to everyone saying he lead them that night.

Russell's defense actually seem to be trending up.

defense
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject:

Cutheon wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

JC is the classic example of player that mistakes activity for achievement; effort for efficacy. Hence the spastic, bounding around that he calls "defense." The 20-second dribble-fests he calls "playmaking" and "shot creation."

Pretty much how I feel. I question whether the Laker players do basic scouting like understanding where opponents like to shoot, the way they shoot and dribble, whether they prefer going left or right, tendencies they have that can be exploited. They have 0 clue on defense. Its clear that coaches saw what a lot of people saw in Clarkson last season. He cannot play alongside Russell and benefit the team. They are a huge defensive liability together.

defense
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:07 pm Post subject:

Also I really don't understand the justification that says "hey Russell is bad too" so Clarkson is fine, its complete nonsense. Russell is and will be a much better offensive player than Clarkson. While I would love Russell to be a good defender even if it never happens I think he will eventually be good enough on offense to make up for it where JC is not. As far as the comment about Lebron, Curry, Dirk, Harden, those guys are HISTORICALLY great offensive players who by the way are capable of playing good defense when they set their mind to it. Its another utterly ridiculous argument. "Well Lebron doesn't play defense sometimes so its ok for JC the bench player too"

tox
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject:

Practice wrote:

tox wrote:

Yup, he's been very vocal on both ends! Noticeable through the TV (err laptop).

TooMuchMajicBuss
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

Yes - this is where the Lakers as a team can improve, and to answer the OP's comment - this is one place Russell recognizes there is a problem and is making an effort to step up. Wouldn't write him off as a leader just yet.

Seems to me Russell also tries to smother opponents even when a long way from the basket. Easier to get blown by, yet if Lillard falls backwards and drains a 3 from 28 feet out posters will still claim it's bad 3 point defense too. It's learning curve for DLO, give it time I think his defense will be just fine.

cthroatgtr
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject:

Let's get to the playoffs first...JC is built like a 6th man and is now playing that role. Dlo is starting to play where we thought he would all year, but still a bit inconsistent. I am sure if people asked that question of the splash brothers a few years ago people would laugh. Give it some time, way to early to tell.

adkindo
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

No, the numbers don't account for JC "looking" like a better defender to you, getting beat more than Dlo, but you not noticing, because you're focused in on the other guy's flaws, real or imagined.

I don't get it....its like we live on the same street, and I allow my dog to crap on your lawn every morning or something.

adkindo
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject:

defense wrote:

Also I really don't understand the justification that says "hey Russell is bad too" so Clarkson is fine, its complete nonsense. "

It is not nonsense in the realm of we have not had any quality defenders on this team, and many very bad one over the last 2 seasons.....but I JC gets called out more than anyone for defense....and the guy does not even start.

adkindo
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

tell me how Kawhi is #118 in DRPM while teammates David Lee is #82 and Paul Gasol is #47? David Lee and Pau Gasol are significantly better defenders than Kawhi?

adkindo
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:55 pm Post subject:

justsomelakerfan wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guess the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

Again. Both are not elite defenders by any means. Jc's defense, especially for a soon to be 25 year old has been regressing. I think the fact a just turned 21 year old is struggling a bit on defense isn't that troubling to me.

I am not troubled by it, but I would be less troubled if we could put two above average defenders on the court with him....maybe a rim protecting #5 and a really good defender on the perimeter at the #2 or #3.....or at least a great rim protector and a lock down perimeter defender off the bench.

Or maybe Josh Jackson

was it that transparent?

LakerLanny
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject:

Championship accountability? I would settle for playoff accountability or winning half the games at least accountability. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny

tox
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:33 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

tell me how Kawhi is #118 in DRPM while teammates David Lee is #82 and Paul Gasol is #47? David Lee and Pau Gasol are significantly better defenders than Kawhi?

No stat is perfect. I'm not a huge fan of DRPM, and frankly I'm not interested in debating the merits of RPM with you. (The answer to your question is: various lineups been better on defense without Kawhi on the floor for whatever reason this year, and DRPM noticed & accounted for that. Why? God knows.)

But it's telling that DRPM agrees, Synergy agrees. Box score stats agree. An outside analyst like Zach Lowe agrees. Everything suggests that Clarkson is a terrible defender, and that Russell is better (how much depends on the source).

KeepItRealOrElse
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:34 pm Post subject:

Here come the stats, here come the stats in a here comes the bride melody*

adkindo
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:39 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

adkindo wrote:

tell me how Kawhi is #118 in DRPM while teammates David Lee is #82 and Paul Gasol is #47? David Lee and Pau Gasol are significantly better defenders than Kawhi?

you were quick to tell me how wrong I was based on "the numbers"...a single question, and now I am suppose to subscribe to Zack Lowe's opinion?

"frankly I'm not interested in debating the merits of RPM with you"....who asked you to debate any merits? You brought DPRM in to the discussion. I already knew it was a questionable metric.

tox
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

tox wrote:

adkindo wrote:

tell me how Kawhi is #118 in DRPM while teammates David Lee is #82 and Paul Gasol is #47? David Lee and Pau Gasol are significantly better defenders than Kawhi?

Your argument is "I don't think highly of the stats you use" and "I don't think highly the experts you appeal to" even though a plurality of flawed stats is convincing evidence nonetheless. It's obvious you have no interest in having a constructive conversation. To be fair, there is no argument on your side. By every possible measurable way Clarkson has been (bleep) terrible on defense.

- Individual stats? Horrible
- Synergy stats? Horrible
- On/ off stats? Horrible
- Adjusting on off stats for lineups (i.e. DRPM)? Horrible

Then for good measure, one of the most respected journalists, who has no teeth in this game, agrees with this perspective.

So whatever, have fun with your eye test.

defense
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:05 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

defense wrote:

Also I really don't understand the justification that says "hey Russell is bad too" so Clarkson is fine, its complete nonsense. "

I cant speak on what opinions others have on JC but I can tell you that I get on him because he has the athleticism to be a good defender unlike some others who are physically over match. Knowing that I am more critical of him. Also, half his issues are mental. I keep asking myself what the hell is his plan when hes defending? JC has amazing lateral quickness he just has no clue how to use it to his advantage.

By the way the starting thing really is irrelevant because he's playing a lot. His impact is starter level for now so its not over the top to expect more from him. He also finishes games frequently so we need him to be better.

Last edited by defense on Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:12 pm; edited 2 times in total

kwase
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:08 pm Post subject:

What D???

Omar Little
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

Omar Little wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

adkindo wrote:

yinoma2001 wrote:

Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages.

I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo.

GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise.

I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise.

I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.

No, the numbers don't account for JC "looking" like a better defender to you, getting beat more than Dlo, but you not noticing, because you're focused in on the other guy's flaws, real or imagined.

I don't get it....its like we live on the same street, and I allow my dog to crap on your lawn every morning or something.

Only if your dog crops really bad ideas and logic...

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adkindo
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:12 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

adkindo wrote:

tox wrote:

adkindo wrote:

tell me how Kawhi is #118 in DRPM while teammates David Lee is #82 and Paul Gasol is #47? David Lee and Pau Gasol are significantly better defenders than Kawhi?

weak response....didn't say any of the garbage you just typed. I like Zach Lowe, but I do not subscribe to his opinions and make them mine. Didn't mention any of the other bullet points you wasted time typing....you simply created straw men arguments to make yourself feel like you won something.

You jumped into a conversation to tell me I was wrong utilizing a metric....then quickly disavowed the metric as soon as it was challenged.....that is the beginning and ending of my point.

So yeah, whatever.

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