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adkindo
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Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South
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 Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages. |
I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo. |
GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise. |
I am simply basing it on how many times DLo gets beat on the ball....with ease. Luke does not do it as much recently, but he often cross matched DLo onto the lesser perimeter player earlier in season. |
I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise. |
I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court. |
No, the numbers don't account for JC "looking" like a better defender to you, getting beat more than Dlo, but you not noticing, because you're focused in on the other guy's flaws, real or imagined. |
I don't get it....its like we live on the same street, and I allow my dog to crap on your lawn every morning or something. |
Only if your dog crops really bad ideas and logic...  |
the thing is I do not claim JC is a decent defender, but I do not think DLo is a better on ball defender....he constantly calls for a switch...often too late just to cover up him getting beat. If that opinion is wrong, I can live with that....but not with DRPM.
Your response to me suggests I try to find negatives about DLo, which just is not true....he is my favorite player by a decent margin. I get why people think it is JC....but my defense of JC is totally about a different issue....but I am not a DLo hater. I may wish to choke DLo more than any player...but that is because I desperately want him to be really good. |
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Vic5150
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1853
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I wish this thread, and some of the posts therein, had "championship accountability". If only dreams came true... |
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Vic5150
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1853
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Lakers seem to have already say no to JC as a long term starter. I think Dlo is already close to an average level NBA defender and will be that at least as he ages. |
I do not think he is a decent defender. I think Clarkson is a superior defender to DLo. |
GT posted a Synergy chart that had him surprisingly in the 56th percentile. While Jc looks like he puts more effort the stats seem to show otherwise. |
I am simply basing it on how many times DLo gets beat on the ball....with ease. Luke does not do it as much recently, but he often cross matched DLo onto the lesser perimeter player earlier in season. |
I get it. The eye test. I'm just saying the numbers say otherwise. |
I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court. |
No, the numbers don't account for JC "looking" like a better defender to you, getting beat more than Dlo, but you not noticing, because you're focused in on the other guy's flaws, real or imagined. |
I don't get it....its like we live on the same street, and I allow my dog to crap on your lawn every morning or something. |
Only if your dog crops really bad ideas and logic... |
the thing is I do not claim JC is a decent defender, but I do not think DLo is a better on ball defender....he constantly calls for a switch...often too late just to cover up him getting beat. If that opinion is wrong, I can live with that....but not with DRPM.
Your response to me suggests I try to find negatives about DLo, which just is not true....he is my favorite player by a decent margin. I get why people think it is JC....but my defense of JC is totally about a different issue....but I am not a DLo hater. I may wish to choke DLo more than any player...but that is because I desperately want him to be really good. |
Sorry to step in, that's bull (bleep) I'm not sorry but whatever, but I think what has lead to the consternation regarding your posts is you've stated your opinion/observation with zero to support it but your eyes. On the other end of this almost everyone has come back with impartial numbers to show you how you're observation is incorrect. At a certain point the evidence opposite your opinion becomes overwhelming, hence, the debate which devolved into an argument.
Regarding your statement regarding Leonard with Aldridge out indefinitely it'll be interesting to see if the dynamic you posted holds up or if Gasol and Lee will regress to their respective means. That said there is a difference between guarding Harden and guarding Capela. |
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | weak response....didn't say any of the garbage you just typed. I like Zach Lowe, but I do not subscribe to his opinions and make them mine. Didn't mention any of the other bullet points you wasted time typing....you simply created straw men arguments to make yourself feel like you won something.
You jumped into a conversation to tell me I was wrong utilizing a metric....then quickly disavowed the metric as soon as it was challenged.....that is the beginning and ending of my point.
So yeah, whatever. |
You are not an insufferable user in general, so I'll attempt to give you the benefit of the doubt once more. There are two things my posts addressed. One is that Clarkson is a terrible defender based on all the stats/ evidence. But it seems you aren't interested in this discussion.
So, the second thing I responded to (which is what you are debating) was this:
| Quote: | I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.
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I responded by noting DRPM accounts for this. You said "WHAT ABOUT KAWHI!!!!" But that's asinine. The existence of an edge case doesn't make a rule bad. That the 2004 Pistons won the NBA championship doesn't mean that teams don't usually win with a superstar. That Kawhi's DRPM is worse than Pau doesn't mean the stat doesn't generally have good predictions. It's possible DRPM underrates Kawhi, but it's still right that Russell is a (significantly) better defender than Clarkson.
Now, for your own benefit, I'll go into detail about your Kawhi example. Kawhi is lower on DBPM (on basketball-ref) than both Lee & Pau, because it's a stat that skews towards big men, especially guys who get boards and assists like Lee and Pau. And Kawhi has dropped off this year, probably due to lower rebounds & blocks. DBPM plays a significant role in DRPM. Furthermore, height factors into DRPM as well. For those reasons, plus Kawhi's surprisingly mediocre lineup numbers, it's not a surprise his DRPM is lower than Lee & Pau's.
Does that actually mean Kawhi is worse at defense than Pau or Lee? Of course not. It's a systematic bias of DRPM. But when we are comparing two 6'5 point guards, then that bias is no longer in play. And so, Russell's significantly better DRPM rating compared to Clarkson cannot be so easily dismissed like you are wont to do.
*drops mic* |
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fiendishoc
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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I'll try to address the eye test part. I've been watching the defense pretty closely this season, and my observations are generally in line with the stats. Some of my opinions:
1) DLO is a better all around defender than Clarkson. His problems as mentioned by others are icing before the big is in position and calling too many switches, particularly in transition. He's gotten better at staying attached to guys after screens as the season has gone on. In all other things he's pretty solid, from one on one D to team D, besides getting back cut once in a while while trying to read the opposing offense. He's one of the few guys on the team that talks on D and doesn't make that many mistakes on the help side as a couple of other guys do.
This isn't proof of anything but here's a nice highlight someone put together from the last game:
https://twitter.com/RunTheJules/status/840459100341207040
2) Clarkson has been trying this year but a couple things are hurting his D. His effort is consistent and he's ok chasing guys around screens, but his footwork has some problems, which leave him susceptible to changes of directions. I actually think he gives up more one on one blowbys than Russell that aren't the result of some other some factor (screen coverage, pressure defense). The bigger problem is that I see him involved in more miscommunications than anyone among our perimeter players, whether it's transition matchups or on switches. These kind of things we can't actually hear through the TV who was supposed to do what, but the number of instances makes me think that Clarkson doesn't talk enough or is too distracted to hear what other guys are saying.
3) Regarding what Zach Lowe says about the DLO / Clarkson pairing being unplayable- I don't think there's enough evidence to conclude that. There are a number of substandard defenders on the team and I don't see a major dropoff on the perimeter when we go to that backcourt. As discussed in the other thread, the pairing is most often played with a BI and Randle frontcourt, which is the much bigger liability. Randle's defensive awareness issues are well documented and BI is not yet a good defender, especially not from the PF position, and then we try to switch everything with this lineup which magnifies all of the defensive chemistry issues of a young team. |
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Andre2K
Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 12199
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | weak response....didn't say any of the garbage you just typed. I like Zach Lowe, but I do not subscribe to his opinions and make them mine. Didn't mention any of the other bullet points you wasted time typing....you simply created straw men arguments to make yourself feel like you won something.
You jumped into a conversation to tell me I was wrong utilizing a metric....then quickly disavowed the metric as soon as it was challenged.....that is the beginning and ending of my point.
So yeah, whatever. |
You are not an insufferable user in general, so I'll attempt to give you the benefit of the doubt once more. There are two things my posts addressed. One is that Clarkson is a terrible defender based on all the stats/ evidence. But it seems you aren't interested in this discussion.
So, the second thing I responded to (which is what you are debating) was this:
| Quote: | I am guessing the "numbers" do not account for who the player is defending, or how often he calls for switches instead of fighting through a screen creating mismatches across the court.
|
I responded by noting DRPM accounts for this. You said "WHAT ABOUT KAWHI!!!!" But that's asinine. The existence of an edge case doesn't make a rule bad. That the 2004 Pistons won the NBA championship doesn't mean that teams don't usually win with a superstar. That Kawhi's DRPM is worse than Pau doesn't mean the stat doesn't generally have good predictions. It's possible DRPM underrates Kawhi, but it's still right that Russell is a (significantly) better defender than Clarkson.
Now, for your own benefit, I'll go into detail about your Kawhi example. Kawhi is lower on DBPM (on basketball-ref) than both Lee & Pau, because it's a stat that skews towards big men, especially guys who get boards and assists like Lee and Pau. And Kawhi has dropped off this year, probably due to lower rebounds & blocks. DBPM plays a significant role in DRPM. Furthermore, height factors into DRPM as well. For those reasons, plus Kawhi's surprisingly mediocre lineup numbers, it's not a surprise his DRPM is lower than Lee & Pau's.
Does that actually mean Kawhi is worse at defense than Pau or Lee? Of course not. It's a systematic bias of DRPM. But when we are comparing two 6'5 point guards, then that bias is no longer in play. And so, Russell's significantly better DRPM rating compared to Clarkson cannot be so easily dismissed like you are wont to do.
*drops mic* |
What do you think about this Tox, according to this TPA list I compiled, Nick Young is our worst defender in defensive points saved and Clarkson is not too far behind. Not sure Nwaba can fix this problem, his offense is simply not good enough yet.
Lakers Top Players in TPA
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Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
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tox
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Andre2K wrote: |
What do you think about this Tox, according to this TPA list I compiled, Nick Young is our worst defender in defensive points saved and Clarkson is not too far behind. Not sure Nwaba can fix this problem, his offense is simply not good enough yet.
Lakers Top Players in TPA |
Yeah I talked about TPA a bit in the Russell thread. TPA is based on BPM. The only change it makes is that the fewer minutes you play, the closer you are drawn to 0. So guys like Nwaba who've barely played have really small TPA scores.
Anyways, BPM is a pretty solid stat in my opinion, and so is OBPM. But DBPM isn't really... there aren't enough box score stats for it to give you good results on defense. How do you really capture diving for loose balls, communicating on PnR, making rotations, etc.? It's tough.
So that's a roundabout way of saying... we should probably take those TPA defensive numbers with a grain of salt. Is Julius really a better defender than Tarik? Probably not.
IMO, the solution should be to mold Clarkson into a good defender, more than hope that Nwaba necessarily picks up the slack. It's not like Clarkson hasn't shown he can be a good defender... it's just that he's not. If he picks up his awareness, there's no reason he can't be a 2-way player... but I feel like I said the same thing last year so idk.. |
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17876
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | I'll try to address the eye test part. I've been watching the defense pretty closely this season, and my observations are generally in line with the stats. Some of my opinions:
1) DLO is a better all around defender than Clarkson. His problems as mentioned by others are icing before the big is in position and calling too many switches, particularly in transition. He's gotten better at staying attached to guys after screens as the season has gone on. In all other things he's pretty solid, from one on one D to team D, besides getting back cut once in a while while trying to read the opposing offense. He's one of the few guys on the team that talks on D and doesn't make that many mistakes on the help side as a couple of other guys do.
This isn't proof of anything but here's a nice highlight someone put together from the last game:
https://twitter.com/RunTheJules/status/840459100341207040
2) Clarkson has been trying this year but a couple things are hurting his D. His effort is consistent and he's ok chasing guys around screens, but his footwork has some problems, which leave him susceptible to changes of directions. I actually think he gives up more one on one blowbys than Russell that aren't the result of some other some factor (screen coverage, pressure defense). The bigger problem is that I see him involved in more miscommunications than anyone among our perimeter players, whether it's transition matchups or on switches. These kind of things we can't actually hear through the TV who was supposed to do what, but the number of instances makes me think that Clarkson doesn't talk enough or is too distracted to hear what other guys are saying.
3) Regarding what Zach Lowe says about the DLO / Clarkson pairing being unplayable- I don't think there's enough evidence to conclude that. There are a number of substandard defenders on the team and I don't see a major dropoff on the perimeter when we go to that backcourt. As discussed in the other thread, the pairing is most often played with a BI and Randle frontcourt, which is the much bigger liability. Randle's defensive awareness issues are well documented and BI is not yet a good defender, especially not from the PF position, and then we try to switch everything with this lineup which magnifies all of the defensive chemistry issues of a young team. |
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Andre2K
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Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 12199
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: |
What do you think about this Tox, according to this TPA list I compiled, Nick Young is our worst defender in defensive points saved and Clarkson is not too far behind. Not sure Nwaba can fix this problem, his offense is simply not good enough yet.
Lakers Top Players in TPA |
Yeah I talked about TPA a bit in the Russell thread. TPA is based on BPM. The only change it makes is that the fewer minutes you play, the closer you are drawn to 0. So guys like Nwaba who've barely played have really small TPA scores.
Anyways, BPM is a pretty solid stat in my opinion, and so is OBPM. But DBPM isn't really... there aren't enough box score stats for it to give you good results on defense. How do you really capture diving for loose balls, communicating on PnR, making rotations, etc.? It's tough.
So that's a roundabout way of saying... we should probably take those TPA defensive numbers with a grain of salt. Is Julius really a better defender than Tarik? Probably not.
IMO, the solution should be to mold Clarkson into a good defender, more than hope that Nwaba necessarily picks up the slack. It's not like Clarkson hasn't shown he can be a good defender... it's just that he's not. If he picks up his awareness, there's no reason he can't be a 2-way player... but I feel like I said the same thing last year so idk.. |
Yeah we were really hoping Clarkson would pick it up defensively this season, he seemed to have worked at it all summer. I don't want to give up on him yet but he seems to be what he is at this point.
I mentioned Nwaba because he is the only other guy we have that can fill that role, the front office will need to get to work and maybe find someone that can fill that role with the 28th pick or via free agency.
_________________
My Dream Starting 5 next Season
Pg Lonzo
Sg Kawhi
Sf Ingram
Pf Lebron
C Dedmon
Bench: Caruso, Hart, Bullock, Kuzma, McGee etc |
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ringfinger
Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | | Andre2K wrote: |
What do you think about this Tox, according to this TPA list I compiled, Nick Young is our worst defender in defensive points saved and Clarkson is not too far behind. Not sure Nwaba can fix this problem, his offense is simply not good enough yet.
Lakers Top Players in TPA |
Yeah I talked about TPA a bit in the Russell thread. TPA is based on BPM. The only change it makes is that the fewer minutes you play, the closer you are drawn to 0. So guys like Nwaba who've barely played have really small TPA scores.
Anyways, BPM is a pretty solid stat in my opinion, and so is OBPM. But DBPM isn't really... there aren't enough box score stats for it to give you good results on defense. How do you really capture diving for loose balls, communicating on PnR, making rotations, etc.? It's tough.
So that's a roundabout way of saying... we should probably take those TPA defensive numbers with a grain of salt. Is Julius really a better defender than Tarik? Probably not.
IMO, the solution should be to mold Clarkson into a good defender, more than hope that Nwaba necessarily picks up the slack. It's not like Clarkson hasn't shown he can be a good defender... it's just that he's not. If he picks up his awareness, there's no reason he can't be a 2-way player... but I feel like I said the same thing last year so idk.. |
Good points on the defensive stats. It's why one should always pair observation with the analytics. We'll likely never get to highly accurate defensive stats.
Unlike with offense, it is impossible to say what caused a missed basket. Most often, it's going to be a combination of factors including things like the shooters state of mind, health, momentum, etc. |
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A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6142
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | I'll try to address the eye test part. I've been watching the defense pretty closely this season, and my observations are generally in line with the stats. Some of my opinions:
1) DLO is a better all around defender than Clarkson. His problems as mentioned by others are icing before the big is in position and calling too many switches, particularly in transition. He's gotten better at staying attached to guys after screens as the season has gone on. In all other things he's pretty solid, from one on one D to team D, besides getting back cut once in a while while trying to read the opposing offense. He's one of the few guys on the team that talks on D and doesn't make that many mistakes on the help side as a couple of other guys do.
This isn't proof of anything but here's a nice highlight someone put together from the last game:
https://twitter.com/RunTheJules/status/840459100341207040
2) Clarkson has been trying this year but a couple things are hurting his D. His effort is consistent and he's ok chasing guys around screens, but his footwork has some problems, which leave him susceptible to changes of directions. I actually think he gives up more one on one blowbys than Russell that aren't the result of some other some factor (screen coverage, pressure defense). The bigger problem is that I see him involved in more miscommunications than anyone among our perimeter players, whether it's transition matchups or on switches. These kind of things we can't actually hear through the TV who was supposed to do what, but the number of instances makes me think that Clarkson doesn't talk enough or is too distracted to hear what other guys are saying.
3) Regarding what Zach Lowe says about the DLO / Clarkson pairing being unplayable- I don't think there's enough evidence to conclude that. There are a number of substandard defenders on the team and I don't see a major dropoff on the perimeter when we go to that backcourt. As discussed in the other thread, the pairing is most often played with a BI and Randle frontcourt, which is the much bigger liability. Randle's defensive awareness issues are well documented and BI is not yet a good defender, especially not from the PF position, and then we try to switch everything with this lineup which magnifies all of the defensive chemistry issues of a young team. |
Agree with your assessments
Since Luke started the training camp by playing on defense, are we seeing these physically gifted players digressing since they seemingly were playing better earlier in the season?
Maybe Brewer will provide a defensive role model that Deng surprisingly could not provide. |
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fiendishoc
Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 8488
Location: The (real) short corner
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | I'll try to address the eye test part. I've been watching the defense pretty closely this season, and my observations are generally in line with the stats. Some of my opinions:
1) DLO is a better all around defender than Clarkson. His problems as mentioned by others are icing before the big is in position and calling too many switches, particularly in transition. He's gotten better at staying attached to guys after screens as the season has gone on. In all other things he's pretty solid, from one on one D to team D, besides getting back cut once in a while while trying to read the opposing offense. He's one of the few guys on the team that talks on D and doesn't make that many mistakes on the help side as a couple of other guys do.
This isn't proof of anything but here's a nice highlight someone put together from the last game:
https://twitter.com/RunTheJules/status/840459100341207040
2) Clarkson has been trying this year but a couple things are hurting his D. His effort is consistent and he's ok chasing guys around screens, but his footwork has some problems, which leave him susceptible to changes of directions. I actually think he gives up more one on one blowbys than Russell that aren't the result of some other some factor (screen coverage, pressure defense). The bigger problem is that I see him involved in more miscommunications than anyone among our perimeter players, whether it's transition matchups or on switches. These kind of things we can't actually hear through the TV who was supposed to do what, but the number of instances makes me think that Clarkson doesn't talk enough or is too distracted to hear what other guys are saying.
3) Regarding what Zach Lowe says about the DLO / Clarkson pairing being unplayable- I don't think there's enough evidence to conclude that. There are a number of substandard defenders on the team and I don't see a major dropoff on the perimeter when we go to that backcourt. As discussed in the other thread, the pairing is most often played with a BI and Randle frontcourt, which is the much bigger liability. Randle's defensive awareness issues are well documented and BI is not yet a good defender, especially not from the PF position, and then we try to switch everything with this lineup which magnifies all of the defensive chemistry issues of a young team. |
Agree with your assessments
Since Luke started the training camp by playing on defense, are we seeing these physically gifted players digressing since they seemingly were playing better earlier in the season?
Maybe Brewer will provide a defensive role model that Deng surprisingly could not provide. |
We haven't been a good defensive team all year but we've had some decent defensive lineups at times, like the original starting lineup and the original main bench unit. Unfortunately some other lineups have gotten crushed, like the previously mentioned Randle small ball lineups, the starters + Ingram instead of Deng, and almost everything involving a third stringer (Calderon, MWP, etc).
There has been some slippage in individual players, most notably Swaggy's defense took a dive as the losses piled up and the season lost relevance. But a bigger factor is also the benchings of Deng and Mozgov, which put more of a load defensively on Randle, Ingram, and Zubac, none of whom were ready yet to take it on.
As for Brewer, although his steals and hustle are helpful, he really doesn't change much in terms of team defense. To me, Nwaba is more of the type of player that the team needs. Someone who can get into the offensive player and stall the clock and motion of the opposing offense without getting out of defensive positioning. Now it doesn't specifically have to be Nwaba going forward as he's quite raw and questions about his game need to be answered over time, but I think his impact so far shows that this kind of player can make a large difference going forward. (And I mean in addition to Deng, not completely replacing Deng.) |
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A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6142
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| fiendishoc wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | fiendishoc wrote: | I'll try to address the eye test part. I've been watching the defense pretty closely this season, and my observations are generally in line with the stats. Some of my opinions:
1) DLO is a better all around defender than Clarkson. His problems as mentioned by others are icing before the big is in position and calling too many switches, particularly in transition. He's gotten better at staying attached to guys after screens as the season has gone on. In all other things he's pretty solid, from one on one D to team D, besides getting back cut once in a while while trying to read the opposing offense. He's one of the few guys on the team that talks on D and doesn't make that many mistakes on the help side as a couple of other guys do.
This isn't proof of anything but here's a nice highlight someone put together from the last game:
https://twitter.com/RunTheJules/status/840459100341207040
2) Clarkson has been trying this year but a couple things are hurting his D. His effort is consistent and he's ok chasing guys around screens, but his footwork has some problems, which leave him susceptible to changes of directions. I actually think he gives up more one on one blowbys than Russell that aren't the result of some other some factor (screen coverage, pressure defense). The bigger problem is that I see him involved in more miscommunications than anyone among our perimeter players, whether it's transition matchups or on switches. These kind of things we can't actually hear through the TV who was supposed to do what, but the number of instances makes me think that Clarkson doesn't talk enough or is too distracted to hear what other guys are saying.
3) Regarding what Zach Lowe says about the DLO / Clarkson pairing being unplayable- I don't think there's enough evidence to conclude that. There are a number of substandard defenders on the team and I don't see a major dropoff on the perimeter when we go to that backcourt. As discussed in the other thread, the pairing is most often played with a BI and Randle frontcourt, which is the much bigger liability. Randle's defensive awareness issues are well documented and BI is not yet a good defender, especially not from the PF position, and then we try to switch everything with this lineup which magnifies all of the defensive chemistry issues of a young team. |
Agree with your assessments
Since Luke started the training camp by playing on defense, are we seeing these physically gifted players digressing since they seemingly were playing better earlier in the season?
Maybe Brewer will provide a defensive role model that Deng surprisingly could not provide. |
We haven't been a good defensive team all year but we've had some decent defensive lineups at times, like the original starting lineup and the original main bench unit. Unfortunately some other lineups have gotten crushed, like the previously mentioned Randle small ball lineups, the starters + Ingram instead of Deng, and almost everything involving a third stringer (Calderon, MWP, etc).
There has been some slippage in individual players, most notably Swaggy's defense took a dive as the losses piled up and the season lost relevance. But a bigger factor is also the benchings of Deng and Mozgov, which put more of a load defensively on Randle, Ingram, and Zubac, none of whom were ready yet to take it on.
As for Brewer, although his steals and hustle are helpful, he really doesn't change much in terms of team defense. To me, Nwaba is more of the type of player that the team needs. Someone who can get into the offensive player and stall the clock and motion of the opposing offense without getting out of defensive positioning. Now it doesn't specifically have to be Nwaba going forward as he's quite raw and questions about his game need to be answered over time, but I think his impact so far shows that this kind of player can make a large difference going forward. (And I mean in addition to Deng, not completely replacing Deng.) |
Agree with your thoughts on Nwaba. When he is on the court, especially with Brewer (albeit from a small sample size), the difference has been easily noted just because of the energy he brings to the court
My comments on the Brewer-Deng example is based on the many times one doesn't even know that Deng is on the court while Brewer's presence is felt - albeit in different situations and small sample size noted above
Believing/Playing that activity/effort is enough to be starting despite their recognition at the post game reviews of past oft-repeated mistakes since the beginning of the season that has included numerous total blowout embarrassing loses to bottom rung teams could be their fatal "Fool's Gold."
DLO, JC, Randle, Nance, Zubac and BI are auditioning for their role on this team by Magic - maybe other teams. Revealing to watch their effort and efficiency (good and bad) noting that Magic and Rob suggests that they don't see a potential superstar in this group - with BI and Zubac's future unknown because they are first year players
DLO and JC are displaying what type players they are - present and future. Is it good enough for DLO to be the starting PG, JC as the starting SG and Randle as the starting PF. Are they good enough for Magic?
Last edited by A Mad Chinaman on Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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misterioso
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Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 616
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I would substitute the term "Championship Intelligence" for the term "Championship Accountability." Part of playing defense is seeing the plays develop, anticipating certain actions, and being in position to stop those actions. Clarkson, when he's got his head up, and he's engaged on defense is an excellent defender, but most of the time, he's not engaged. Same with Russell, except he's rarely ever engaged.
Just to give a simple example: When was the last time either of these guys ever took a charge? How many times have they taken charges this season? Manu Ginobli, still a very good defender, used to clog the paint and draw charging fouls a couple of times per game, especially in critical moments. Manu had a picture of the play in his mind which allowed him to be in position for the play.
They always talk about effort being a function of effort. IMO, it's a combination of effort and intelligence. This Laker team is not a very smart. It's not just DLO and Clarkson. It's also Randle.
The reason why Ingram is getting so many props despite his shooting inconsistency is that he shows a better grasp of fundamental basketball, probably due to the personal tutelage of Stackhouse. The other guys - they learned their fundamentals on the playground and it shows.
Another sign that the team isn't smart is the types of turnovers it commits. The insane number of bad passes that have no chance of being caught is just absolutely ridiculous.
In regards to Nwaba, you can think of Nwaba as a bigger version of Patrick Beverly, with the exception that Beverly's offensive liabilities were pretty much covered by playing alongside Harden, allowing him to stay on the floor as a defensive specialist. Unfortunately for Nwaba, he's not playing alongside a James Harden, so while he might earn his way into the league, it's probably not going to be with the Lakers who are in desperate need of 2 way players. |
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1hu2ren3dui4
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 15403
Location: Oak Park
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| They both look pretty average to me. Arguing who is better or worse for a championship team seems like trying to figure out which c student is more likely to be valedictorian. |
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TheGoat1
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Joined: 27 Jun 2015
Posts: 229
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| Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I vote No |
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