Westbrook chasing history
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:

LBJ was considered hands down the best player in the 2015 finals, although he shot sub 40% from the field. Why? Because of his impact. His Impact that series was huge.


LBJ was playing the best team in the world, minus two starters, and took them to 6 games. He overachieved. Westbrook has the Thunder in the range most predicted they would be in. LBJ also wasn't playing league worst defense in that series. You seem to think I am saying Harden is having a better season just because he is more efficient. No, he is having a better scoring season because he is more efficient. Then he is having a better season getting others involved (slightly). And he is not bottom of the league bad in defense. Westbrook's only advantage is rebounding. He isn't scoring better. He isn't getting others involved better. He isn't defending better.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

What is this myth that Westbrook is inefficient? He is shooting 55% TS, right on league average. Yeah, he isn't shooting 60% like James Harden, but to pretend that Westbrook is having this inefficient season is ridiculous.


Less efficient than Harden. Not inefficient. I stand corrected.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

In any case, PER tries and measures box score production and takes more into account than volume scoring. It also takes scoring efficiency into account ironically. It should only be used when all things look equal.


PER is flawed because it rewards volume shooting and discounts defense. Westbrook is scoring a ton due to volume shooting and his defense is arguably the worst in the league for a starting PG. The only ironic thing is you continuing to defend using the metric in this case, when Westbrook is clearly relying on volume for his points and is playing horrible defense.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

I am not shifting the argument. I am trying to undermine the absurdity of this efficiency argument. Just because someone is a more efficient scorer does not mean he is better, or more "valuable".


It does when it comes to scoring. I am only referring to scoring when noting efficiency.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

As for RPM dismissal... lol. This is what you call a cheap point. You cited anecdotal evidence, and I retorted by showing you there exists no objective data to show this.


I cited real evidence. You brought up a stat to show Westbrook was better defensively than Harden. I showed you that Leonard, per that same metric, is having a worse defensive season that a ton of other SF's. It's a clear discrepancy.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

You must also missed that I said I don't find metrics such as RPM as definitive, particularly on the defensive end (because defensive impact at the end of the day is team based). But you don't have any evidence to support your contention also.


I have noted the evidence. Look at Westbrook's defensive dashboard. It's worse than Harden's in every category. Westbrook is giving up league worse numbers for those playing against him. He also leads the entire league in uncontested shots given up. His defense is horrible this season.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

By the way, your citation of Kwahi's numbers just reflects your ignorance. Luol Deng and Paul Pierce play sub 30 minutes again (Luol Deng 27 minutes; Pierce 12mpg). You should not compare players such as this with Kwahi Leonard, and no one who uses data such as this would do this. Again, it appears you're stuck in 2006 analysis and haven't developed your thought process.


Deng and Pierce were just two of the TWENTY SIX SF's ahead of Leonard per that metric. If you are using a metric to support someone's defense, and the best defensive player in the league (arguably) is 26th at his position, then I'll laugh at that support.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

No spacing and no shooting. Yes, in today's NBA and compared to Westbrook's cast, they are garbage.


He has the same amount of spacing and shooting that Harden had on this injury ravaged team, which he got to the #2 seed just two seasons ago:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2015.html
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject:

This nonsense re: TS% is (bleep) ridiculous ... the suggestion that hitting the league average in TS% is somehow a respectable achievement is going too far. It's bad enough that TS% is easily distorted based on officiating trends, but can we stop breaking our (bleep) arms to pat a guy on the back for being average in a critical area when we're talking about major awards ... ? The old standby excuse re: efficiency dropping when volume increases is really abused by hero ball adherents ... it's a real effect, but not nearly as proportional as the hero ballers would have us believe.

I'm a fan of using eFG% anyway ... that statistic seems to remove all doubt as to whether the player is scoring the points on his own, or with the benefit of officiating that charitably puts him on the line a dozen times a game for "freebies". So (bleep) TS%. But what a season it's been ... Harden and Westbrook are putting up ridiculous numbers, and yet I've never felt less "right" about a player winning the R/S MVP as I do with both of these two ...

At this point, given Harden's recent shooting numbers, I would probably vote for a four-way tie ... LeBron is the best player in basketball (and he probably has been for the past nine or ten years), Kawhi is the best two-way player in basketball, and the other two are offensive stat machines who dilute their impact with subpar defense and absurd turnover numbers. Four-way tie ...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject:

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/04/04/how-rockets-thunder-cavaliers-spurs-play-with-and-without-their-mvp-candidates/

Harden: 58 --> 51
Westbrook: 52 --> 18
LeBron: 61 --> 19
Kawhi: 63 --> 57
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/04/04/how-rockets-thunder-cavaliers-spurs-play-with-and-without-their-mvp-candidates/

Harden: 58 --> 51
Westbrook: 52 --> 18
LeBron: 61 --> 19
Kawhi: 63 --> 57


Another reason I think Lebron is mvp.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
governator wrote:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/04/04/how-rockets-thunder-cavaliers-spurs-play-with-and-without-their-mvp-candidates/

Harden: 58 --> 51
Westbrook: 52 --> 18
LeBron: 61 --> 19
Kawhi: 63 --> 57


Another reason I think Lebron is mvp.


Realistically, Lebron has no chance because the Cavs are going to end up winning about 5 fewer games than last year.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/04/04/how-rockets-thunder-cavaliers-spurs-play-with-and-without-their-mvp-candidates/

Harden: 58 --> 51
Westbrook: 52 --> 18
LeBron: 61 --> 19
Kawhi: 63 --> 57


LOL at the Rockets winning 51 games with anyone on the team filling the Harden role.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject:

governator wrote:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/04/04/how-rockets-thunder-cavaliers-spurs-play-with-and-without-their-mvp-candidates/

Harden: 58 --> 51
Westbrook: 52 --> 18
LeBron: 61 --> 19
Kawhi: 63 --> 57


With apparently no effort whatsoever to check the results for reasonableness, this is one of the worst extrapolations I've seen in a long time ...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
ocho wrote:
governator wrote:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/04/04/how-rockets-thunder-cavaliers-spurs-play-with-and-without-their-mvp-candidates/

Harden: 58 --> 51
Westbrook: 52 --> 18
LeBron: 61 --> 19
Kawhi: 63 --> 57


Another reason I think Lebron is mvp.


Realistically, Lebron has no chance because the Cavs are going to end up winning about 5 fewer games than last year.


Agreed. I think the Harden narrative solidified a while ago.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject:

Mark Berman‏: .@MagicJohnson on Mike D’Antoni:”He’s got2be Coach of theYear.He’s done an amazing job.I don’t know how he’s not going2win Coach of theYear” – via Twitter MarkBermanFox26
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:10 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
slavavov wrote:

I didn't see anything that seemed like padding stats in that video.


So you completely ignored the team scheming to have him get boards off FTs or him leaving guys wide open on the perimeter to chase rebounds? I highly doubt part of OKC's game plan is to routinely leave whoever Westbrook is guarding wide open so he can be in position to rebound. If so then they need a new staff.

I didn't ignore any of that. My argument is that maybe they're putting Westbrook in position where they can take advantage of him being their best rebounder. Otherwise maybe their defensive efficiency would increase a bit, but their defensive rebounding and transition game would be weakened, and there would be no net gain.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject:

Congrats on tying the Big O, RussRuss!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject:

Absolute monster.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject:

Wow. Just wow.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject:

WESTBROOK!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject:

OKC is 32-9 when RW gets a triple double. Just missed out another by a single rebound tonight. He's not hurting the team at all going for triple doubles.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:14 am    Post subject:

saetarubia wrote:
OKC is 32-9 when RW gets a triple double. Just missed out another by a single rebound tonight. He's not hurting the team at all going for triple doubles.


If you take 24 shots a game and don't score 10 points, that's really bad, and you're probably going to lose

if you don't pass the ball or your team misses their shots, that's bad too, and you're probably going to lose.

But that's the offensive end, star players teams tend to do better when shots are going in, and it's not unusual for a pg to get double doubles.

But the rebounds, if you don't defend, and just sit under the rim for them, if their shots are going in (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TbmAqI6oE8. I guess Westbrook was telling the truth when he said he didn't know who he was ) or they're getting the rebounds instead, that's really bad and you're probably going to lose.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject:

So I guess no one noticed Westbrook was still in the game down 20 with 4 minutes left, doing nothing but passing to chase two assists for a triple double?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:02 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:

Just checked, they're 3rd in the league in transition, having barely dropped off from losing a top 3 player. That's impressive, and a strategy opposing teams no doubt have to plan for. Considering their options offensively(who's spreading the floor in transition?), I find that stat to be really impressive. Westbrook is a one man wrecking crew.


Just saw this article, from a few days ago. Thoughts?

Quote:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/fancy-stats/wp/2017/04/05/russell-westbrooks-triple-double-domination-is-not-as-impressive-as-it-seems/

The benefit is getting the ball into Westbrook’s hand as quickly as possible, but his individual production in transition is below average (0.98 points per possession, bottom 30 percent of the NBA) with just 30 percent of his transition opportunities leading to an assist. Almost a quarter of his transition possessions as the ballhandler end up in a turnover (23.1 percent), the fourth-highest among guards with at least 100 possessions.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject:

Argument klosed. Legend.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject:

Westbrook made a great shot today, but that was some terrible defense by Jamal Murray. I have no clue why he even got distracted with the ball being inbound to Steven Adams. He completely turned around, and looked at Adams, lost sight of Russ, and that was it.

That's also bad coaching. You gotta tell whoever is guarding Russ to not even look at the ball. Just face guard and deny Russ. Don't even bother with whatever else is going on with the play.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject:

Should be pretty obvious who the league MVP is by now......
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:05 pm    Post subject:

Harden with the quadruple double.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject:

That 3 by Russ to win the game was nasty, about as ill advised as they come. 2.9 seconds on the clock, for Russ that was all the time in the world to get off a good shot, but dude chucks a Kobe.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject:

The season Russell is having is the greatest individual season anyone not named Wilt has ever had. It's clearly better than what Kobe did in 06, what Shaq did in 2000 and even what Jordan did in the mid 80s. We should really savor it for all that it is.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject:

LakerLogic wrote:
Harden with the quadruple double.


Quintuple if flops were a stat.
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