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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
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Aeneas Hunter wrote:
LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Averaging a triple double in less than 35 minutes per game and carrying his team to a 4-6 seed in the west. Oscar needed 44 minutes per. There should be no MVP debate.


Naw. The guy is about to blow away the all-time record for usage rate. When Kobe set the record at 38.74% in '06, he was widely derided as a ball hog. Well, Westbrook is currently at 42%.

Oscar didn't win the MVP in his triple double season, either.


He's also shooting under 42% from the field (or under 47% eFG) with 5.3 turnovers per game. And his defense isn't exactly DPOY quality.

So, yeah, there's plenty of debate. For my $$$, I'd take Harden, Kawhi and LeBron over Westbrook in the R/S MVP race at this point ...


As usage increases, efficiency decreases. So what you and AH are saying is linked.

People arguing against WB remind me of the arguments made against Kobe from 2005 - 2007. In retrospect, it was total nonsense. He was the best player in the league. And he was doing the most.
Harden reminds me of the Nash/Dirk argument. Players who are doing less on the floor and have better team records.
Meanwhile WB/Kobe is carrying an otherwise non-playoff team to the postseason
Kobe dropped his 81 point game, 4 back-to-back 50 point games, back-to-back 60 point games, seasons with 20 40+ point games. Team going 16-4 over those 20 games. With Smush Parker and Kwame Brown starting. But "Nash and Dirk deserve those MVPs."

Next I'll hear how OKC would be better if Westbrook did less. Just like I heard about Kobe from 2005-2007. Then when Pau shows up in 2008, magically Kobe isn't a selfish (bleep) anymore.
MVP is supposed to be an individual award. What individual has had the best season.

I just laugh thinking about what WB would look like next to floor spacers like Ariza and Ryan Anderson. While Harden tries to kick out to Andre Roberson. Splitting paint space with Sabonis, Gibson, Adams, and Kanter.

Harden does deserve MVP consideration moreso than Dirk and Nash back in the day. I'm more impressed with Harden than I was with those guys back in the day. But I still stand by the Kobe = WB, Harden = Nash, Dirk metaphor.


Westbrook is beginning to develop the veneer of an exceptionally athletic player who brings a lot of empty stats to the table, unfortunately.

I think Harden is having a more productive year when you factor individual and team results. I also think Kawhi and LeBron are more impactful (and more valuable) because of their contributions on the other end of the court AND their enormous advantages in the area of offensive efficiency.

As for Westbrook, he's having an amazing year in a lot of ways ... but 41.8% from the field and 5.4 turnovers ... those are startlingly bad numbers, and I really don't think his USG% sufficiently excuses either of them.

Anyway, just my two cents ... I don't share your view that Kobe was the best player in basketball for those three seasons anyway, so no hard feelings on my end.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:02 pm    Post subject:

Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.


I'm in the camp of voting for Harden over Westbrook this season ...

With respect to the 2005 / 2006 R/S MVP ballot, there's no (bleep) way that Steve Nash deserved the award in my book. But that doesn't mean that the award should have gone to Kobe by default ... he finished in 4th place in the vote count, after all. I guess it should have been Kobe's, but Nash was also undeserving the season before in depriving Shaq of a second R/S MVP award ... and Kobe didn't deserve the one he won later, so what's the point?

And why create a parallel between Harden and Nash anyway ... just because they played / are playing for the same coach, or in the same system? Harden is averaging 11 more points, four more rebounds, and even one more assist ... FFS, his production is more equivalent to Nash + a solid sixth man than it is just Steve Nash alone. I just don't think the parallel is well reasoned at all ...
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.


I didn't think Kobe was the MVP in '06. It could have gone to Nash, Nowitzki, or Lebron. At the time, I thought Dirk was the most deserving. Ten years later, I have only a fuzzy recollection of why I thought that.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.



05-06 was the weirdest year ever where the best personal performances and best team performance didn't align at all, so you had six different guys get first place votes -- something that's never happened before.

I never understood why Nash won the scrum, but you could make a case for a lot of guys that year.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.


I think that's a horrible comparison.

1) Kobe had much better numbers than Nash. Westbrook does not have much better numbers than Harden. Westbrook is grabbing two more boards but Harden kills him in efficiency.

2) Nash had much better teammates than Kobe. Harden does not have much better teammates than Westbrook. Prior to the season every source than ranked players had the OKC players higher, and everyone predicted OKC to win more games. Again, the false narrative that Westbrook is playing with scrubs needs to die.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.


I think that's a horrible comparison.

1) Kobe had much better numbers than Nash. Westbrook does not have much better numbers than Harden. Westbrook is grabbing two more boards but Harden kills him in efficiency.

2) Nash had much better teammates than Kobe. Harden does not have much better teammates than Westbrook. Prior to the season every source than ranked players had the OKC players higher, and everyone predicted OKC to win more games. Again, the false narrative that Westbrook is playing with scrubs needs to die.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.


I think that's a horrible comparison.

1) Kobe had much better numbers than Nash. Westbrook does not have much better numbers than Harden. Westbrook is grabbing two more boards but Harden kills him in efficiency.

2) Nash had much better teammates than Kobe. Harden does not have much better teammates than Westbrook. Prior to the season every source than ranked players had the OKC players higher, and everyone predicted OKC to win more games. Again, the false narrative that Westbrook is playing with scrubs needs to die.


People get worked up about nice round numbers. But you're right, Harden and Westbrook really aren't that far apart in terms of overall numbers. It sounds more impressive to say, 'Westbrook is averaging a triple double and Harden isn't!" rather than "Westbrook and Harden have pretty similar numbers except Westbrook is averaging 2 more rebounds a game." If you put a lot of stock in nice round numbers, the triple double wows you.

Oscar is his triple double season came in THIRD in mvp noting. Wilt (in his 50 ppg. and 100 point game season) came in second. Russell won that year, kind of a triumph of team performance over personal stats
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:08 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Simple question for those that would take Harden over Westbrook- did you think Kobe was the MVP in 05-06 or Steve Nash? Don't forget the D'Antoni system Harden is in. Interested to hear everyone's answer to that question.


I think that's a horrible comparison.

1) Kobe had much better numbers than Nash. Westbrook does not have much better numbers than Harden. Westbrook is grabbing two more boards but Harden kills him in efficiency.

2) Nash had much better teammates than Kobe. Harden does not have much better teammates than Westbrook. Prior to the season every source than ranked players had the OKC players higher, and everyone predicted OKC to win more games. Again, the false narrative that Westbrook is playing with scrubs needs to die.


What's your basis for determining that Harden is killing Westbrook in efficiency? Westbrook is currently leading all players in player efficiency rating. And if you're strictly looking at both players effective shooting percentage the difference between Harden's 53% and Westbrook's 47% is 1 FG. Pretty impressive when you consider how the Rockets are able to spread the floor with their shooters versus OKC's style of play due to their personnel. There's not even a need to get into who has the better set of players. Both guys are playing with zero all stars.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:16 pm    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:
And if you're strictly looking at both players effective shooting percentage the difference between Harden's 53% and Westbrook's 47% is 1 FG. .


Considering that Oklahoma's average winning margin is 0.9 points a game, one field goal is nothing to sneer at.

Give Oklahoma one more FG a game and they could have as many as 7 more wins.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:19 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LakersAlldaWay wrote:
And if you're strictly looking at both players effective shooting percentage the difference between Harden's 53% and Westbrook's 47% is 1 FG. .


Considering that Oklahoma's average winning margin is 0.9 points a game, one field goal is nothing to sneer at.

Give Oklahoma one more FG a game and they could have as many as 7 more wins.


Yea, I looked at that too. Potentially 6 games based on their results. Give them 3 wins in those games. Very impressive when you consider what Harden's FG % would drop to if he was on OKC and Westbrook's would increase to on the Rockets. Also more impressive that Westbrook is leading in overall efficiency.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:

What's your basis for determining that Harden is killing Westbrook in efficiency?


The fact that all of his efficiency metrics are higher. I was referring to shooting.

LakersAlldaWay wrote:
Pretty impressive when you consider how the Rockets are able to spread the floor with their shooters versus OKC's style of play due to their personnel.


Harden's efficiency has always been high, even in prior seasons when we didn't have shooters, when he was stuck in a crappy offense under McHale and JBB.

LakersAlldaWay wrote:

Yea, I looked at that too. Potentially 6 games based on their results. Give them 3 wins in those games. Very impressive when you consider what Harden's FG % would drop to if he was on OKC and Westbrook's would increase to on the Rockets. Also more impressive that Westbrook is leading in overall efficiency.


What are you basing this on? Westbrook has played with great shooting in the past. He takes the same type of shots no matter who is alongside him. Same for Harden in prior seasons. He's either going to get in the paint or shoot 3's.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject:

The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double. Do I think Harden is a worthy MVP candidate? Absolutely! However, Houston's entire team (from the coaching staff to the players) has been built around Harden to maximize his impact. OKC is a team cobbled together as a complement to Westbrook/Durant, which Westbrook has had to lead with a different style of play this year. It is easy to see that the main reason Westbrook won't win the MVP this season (or any season in his career barring a miracle - e.g., Kobe with his MVP campaign while playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand) is his personality. As a result, I'm hoping for OKC/Houston in the first round

Edit: here's the source for the bolded above: Link
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:59 am    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double. Do I think Harden is a worthy MVP candidate? Absolutely! However, Houston's entire team (from the coaching staff to the players) has been built around Harden to maximize his impact. OKC is a team cobbled together as a complement to Westbrook/Durant, which Westbrook has had to lead with a different style of play this year. It is easy to see that the main reason Westbrook won't win the MVP this season (or any season in his career barring a miracle - e.g., Kobe with his MVP campaign while playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand) is his personality. As a result, I'm hoping for OKC/Houston in the first round

Edit: here's the source for the bolded above: Link



BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double. Do I think Harden is a worthy MVP candidate? Absolutely! However, Houston's entire team (from the coaching staff to the players) has been built around Harden to maximize his impact. OKC is a team cobbled together as a complement to Westbrook/Durant, which Westbrook has had to lead with a different style of play this year. It is easy to see that the main reason Westbrook won't win the MVP this season (or any season in his career barring a miracle - e.g., Kobe with his MVP campaign while playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand) is his personality. As a result, I'm hoping for OKC/Houston in the first round

Edit: here's the source for the bolded above: Link


I don't think he's putting up empty stats. He's putting up impressive stats on a team that's doing better than I thought it would.

Harden is doing the same thing and, actually, I'd say he's adapted his role to fit the needs of the team more than Westbrook has. Westbrook to me has just been freed to do his thing because Durant left.

I think you can make a strong case for either (and for Leonard and less so for Lebron with Cleveland's recent dropoff). But most of your arguments (quality of teammates, personality) are very eye-of-the-beholder. And I don't think playing with a broken finger matters to MVP voters.

I think Harden will win because he'll have the strongest combination of personal stats, team success, and team improvement from last year.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double. Do I think Harden is a worthy MVP candidate? Absolutely! However, Houston's entire team (from the coaching staff to the players) has been built around Harden to maximize his impact. OKC is a team cobbled together as a complement to Westbrook/Durant, which Westbrook has had to lead with a different style of play this year. It is easy to see that the main reason Westbrook won't win the MVP this season (or any season in his career barring a miracle - e.g., Kobe with his MVP campaign while playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand) is his personality. As a result, I'm hoping for OKC/Houston in the first round

Edit: here's the source for the bolded above: Link


I don't think he's putting up empty stats. He's putting up impressive stats on a team that's doing better than I thought it would.

Harden is doing the same thing and, actually, I'd say he's adapted his role to fit the needs of the team more than Westbrook has. Westbrook to me has just been freed to do his thing because Durant left.

I think you can make a strong case for either (and for Leonard and less so for Lebron with Cleveland's recent dropoff). But most of your arguments (quality of teammates, personality) are very eye-of-the-beholder. And I don't think playing with a broken finger matters to MVP voters.

I think Harden will win because he'll have the strongest combination of personal stats, team success, and team improvement from last year.


I agree with your final point. However, I do not think Harden has had to adapt much at all. The entire team was built around him (3pt shooters, 3&D, and rebounders/paint protectors). When he was asked to adapt to another "star" player in Houston, he couldn't. Granted, no one has been able to work with Dwight. He has a former allstar in the prime of his career (Eric Gordon), whose game has not benefited at all on the offensive end from playing with Harden. Meanwhile, Oladipo is having a career year with Westbrook.

In terms of Kobe's broken finger, I don't think it's a coincidence that he was the last MVP to play 82 games in his winning season. Mental/physical toughness has always been one of the qualities most lauded/publicized about Kobe (along with his work ethic and competitive spirit), so I do not think it's a stretch to believe that was one of the factors that put him over the top in the minds of the voters that year.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double. Do I think Harden is a worthy MVP candidate? Absolutely! However, Houston's entire team (from the coaching staff to the players) has been built around Harden to maximize his impact. OKC is a team cobbled together as a complement to Westbrook/Durant, which Westbrook has had to lead with a different style of play this year. It is easy to see that the main reason Westbrook won't win the MVP this season (or any season in his career barring a miracle - e.g., Kobe with his MVP campaign while playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand) is his personality. As a result, I'm hoping for OKC/Houston in the first round

Edit: here's the source for the bolded above: Link


I don't think he's putting up empty stats. He's putting up impressive stats on a team that's doing better than I thought it would.

Harden is doing the same thing and, actually, I'd say he's adapted his role to fit the needs of the team more than Westbrook has. Westbrook to me has just been freed to do his thing because Durant left.

I think you can make a strong case for either (and for Leonard and less so for Lebron with Cleveland's recent dropoff). But most of your arguments (quality of teammates, personality) are very eye-of-the-beholder. And I don't think playing with a broken finger matters to MVP voters.

I think Harden will win because he'll have the strongest combination of personal stats, team success, and team improvement from last year.


I agree with your final point. However, I do not think Harden has had to adapt much at all. The entire team was built around him (3pt shooters, 3&D, and rebounders/paint protectors). When he was asked to adapt to another "star" player in Houston, he couldn't. Granted, no one has been able to work with Dwight. He has a former allstar in the prime of his career (Eric Gordon), whose game has not benefited at all on the offensive end from playing with Harden. Meanwhile, Oladipo is having a career year with Westbrook.

In terms of Kobe's broken finger, I don't think it's a coincidence that he was the last MVP to play 82 games in his winning season. Mental/physical toughness has always been one of the qualities most lauded/publicized about Kobe (along with his work ethic and competitive spirit), so I do not think it's a stretch to believe that was one of the factors that put him over the top in the minds of the voters that year.


I don't believe Kobe had a finger issue during his MVP year; it happened the next year if I recall correctly (though he certainly had lots of injuries over the years).

Anyway, Kobe put up his usual great stats; the difference that year was the Lakers had a 15 win improvement from the previous year, which correlates highly with winning the MVP. I doubt stuff like toughness played much of a part in voters decision, but we'll never know.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double


I look at them as half-empty stats. If you dominate your team to the extent that Westbrook does (highest usage rate in history), then your team's performance is going to mirror your own performance. If you have a big game, your team will tend to win. If you have a poor game, your team will tend to lose. Because you dominate the ball so much, your teammates are going to be marginalized. Does that make you more valuable? Sort of yes, sort of no.

Did all of the triple doubles make OKC a better team this year? Hard to say. OKC is on pace to win 47 games. That's not bad, but it is about what was expected in the preseason. It's not like Westbrook is playing with Smush Parker and Chris Mihm.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double. Do I think Harden is a worthy MVP candidate? Absolutely! However, Houston's entire team (from the coaching staff to the players) has been built around Harden to maximize his impact. OKC is a team cobbled together as a complement to Westbrook/Durant, which Westbrook has had to lead with a different style of play this year. It is easy to see that the main reason Westbrook won't win the MVP this season (or any season in his career barring a miracle - e.g., Kobe with his MVP campaign while playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand) is his personality. As a result, I'm hoping for OKC/Houston in the first round

Edit: here's the source for the bolded above: Link


I don't think he's putting up empty stats. He's putting up impressive stats on a team that's doing better than I thought it would.

Harden is doing the same thing and, actually, I'd say he's adapted his role to fit the needs of the team more than Westbrook has. Westbrook to me has just been freed to do his thing because Durant left.

I think you can make a strong case for either (and for Leonard and less so for Lebron with Cleveland's recent dropoff). But most of your arguments (quality of teammates, personality) are very eye-of-the-beholder. And I don't think playing with a broken finger matters to MVP voters.

I think Harden will win because he'll have the strongest combination of personal stats, team success, and team improvement from last year.


I agree with your final point. However, I do not think Harden has had to adapt much at all. The entire team was built around him (3pt shooters, 3&D, and rebounders/paint protectors). When he was asked to adapt to another "star" player in Houston, he couldn't. Granted, no one has been able to work with Dwight. He has a former allstar in the prime of his career (Eric Gordon), whose game has not benefited at all on the offensive end from playing with Harden. Meanwhile, Oladipo is having a career year with Westbrook.

In terms of Kobe's broken finger, I don't think it's a coincidence that he was the last MVP to play 82 games in his winning season. Mental/physical toughness has always been one of the qualities most lauded/publicized about Kobe (along with his work ethic and competitive spirit), so I do not think it's a stretch to believe that was one of the factors that put him over the top in the minds of the voters that year.


I don't believe Kobe had a finger issue during his MVP year; it happened the next year if I recall correctly (though he certainly had lots of injuries over the years).

Anyway, Kobe put up his usual great stats; the difference that year was the Lakers had a 15 win improvement from the previous year, which correlates highly with winning the MVP. I doubt stuff like toughness played much of a part in voters decision, but we'll never know.


I think you're thinking about the index finger he hurt in '09. His pinky was jacked up during his MVP campaign.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double. Do I think Harden is a worthy MVP candidate? Absolutely! However, Houston's entire team (from the coaching staff to the players) has been built around Harden to maximize his impact. OKC is a team cobbled together as a complement to Westbrook/Durant, which Westbrook has had to lead with a different style of play this year. It is easy to see that the main reason Westbrook won't win the MVP this season (or any season in his career barring a miracle - e.g., Kobe with his MVP campaign while playing with a broken finger on his shooting hand) is his personality. As a result, I'm hoping for OKC/Houston in the first round

Edit: here's the source for the bolded above: Link


I don't think he's putting up empty stats. He's putting up impressive stats on a team that's doing better than I thought it would.

Harden is doing the same thing and, actually, I'd say he's adapted his role to fit the needs of the team more than Westbrook has. Westbrook to me has just been freed to do his thing because Durant left.

I think you can make a strong case for either (and for Leonard and less so for Lebron with Cleveland's recent dropoff). But most of your arguments (quality of teammates, personality) are very eye-of-the-beholder. And I don't think playing with a broken finger matters to MVP voters.

I think Harden will win because he'll have the strongest combination of personal stats, team success, and team improvement from last year.


I agree with your final point. However, I do not think Harden has had to adapt much at all. The entire team was built around him (3pt shooters, 3&D, and rebounders/paint protectors). When he was asked to adapt to another "star" player in Houston, he couldn't. Granted, no one has been able to work with Dwight. He has a former allstar in the prime of his career (Eric Gordon), whose game has not benefited at all on the offensive end from playing with Harden. Meanwhile, Oladipo is having a career year with Westbrook.

In terms of Kobe's broken finger, I don't think it's a coincidence that he was the last MVP to play 82 games in his winning season. Mental/physical toughness has always been one of the qualities most lauded/publicized about Kobe (along with his work ethic and competitive spirit), so I do not think it's a stretch to believe that was one of the factors that put him over the top in the minds of the voters that year.


I don't believe Kobe had a finger issue during his MVP year; it happened the next year if I recall correctly (though he certainly had lots of injuries over the years).

Anyway, Kobe put up his usual great stats; the difference that year was the Lakers had a 15 win improvement from the previous year, which correlates highly with winning the MVP. I doubt stuff like toughness played much of a part in voters decision, but we'll never know.


I think you're thinking about the index finger he hurt in '09. His pinky was jacked up during his MVP campaign.


Yea. He hurt his finger in Pau's first game against the Nets aka his MVP season. He was still smiling and laughing at the end of the game though. We all were.
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BadGuy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
The narrative that Westbrook is putting up "empty stats" with these triple doubles is absolutely laughable considering OKC has a 80% winning percentage when Westbrook gets a triple-double


I look at them as half-empty stats. If you dominate your team to the extent that Westbrook does (highest usage rate in history), then your team's performance is going to mirror your own performance. If you have a big game, your team will tend to win. If you have a poor game, your team will tend to lose. Because you dominate the ball so much, your teammates are going to be marginalized. Does that make you more valuable? Sort of yes, sort of no.


I see a high usage rate as an indication of a team's reliance on an individual player, which gives even more credence to the MVP argument in favor of Westbrook imo. I don't buy into the negative connotation of usage rate because almost every player in the top 10 of usage rate in NBA history is going to the HOF (with the exception of JO). Regarding team performance trending with the performance of the player with the highest usage: that's true for any team with a single superstar or even multiple superstars. How many games do the Cavs win when Lebron plays poorly? Clippers with CP3? Blazers with Lillard? In terms of marginalization of teammates, I agree with you when it comes to the long-term success/consistency/sustainability of a franchise and winning championships. However, the MVP award is a short-term award that does not even account for the playoffs in the same season. Therefore, I do not think it's relevant to the MVP argument whether WB's teammates touch the ball 100 times in a game or 0 times if they tend to win with WB dominating the ball.

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Did all of the triple doubles make OKC a better team this year? Hard to say. OKC is on pace to win 47 games. That's not bad, but it is about what was expected in the preseason. It's not like Westbrook is playing with Smush Parker and Chris Mihm.


This argument depends on how you define "better team." If you define a team's success purely by wins, the triple doubles by Westbrook have objectively made OKC a better team. Apply a 33% win rate in games without a triple-double from Westbrook to the games they have won with triple-doubles (an 80% win rate), and you get the difference, which is OKC missing the playoffs (if my mental math is correct). Are Oladipo, Kanter and Steven Adams significantly better than Smush, Mihm/Kwame, and Odom? Maybe in a vacuum, but, given the new era of superteams, I see it as basically a wash because you need at least 2-3 superstars on a team to compete in the NBA now.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
Therefore, I do not think it's relevant to the MVP argument whether WB's teammates touch the ball 100 times in a game or 0 times if they tend to win with WB dominating the ball.


Fundamentally, this is where we disagree. It's a team sport. Forced individual stats aren't value. If I had a vote, Westbrook would probably be third or fourth on my ballot. We'll see what the real voters do.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:


I think you're thinking about the index finger he hurt in '09. His pinky was jacked up during his MVP campaign.


Oh, forgot about the pinky. Yeah, I don't think that was much of a factor for MVP voters.

Generally, I don't think MVP voters vote on a curve and give extra credit for playing through injuries. Certainly, I've seen no evidence that they gave Kobe extra credit for playing with injuries in previous years, so I can't see why they would suddenly change course that season.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:

I agree with your final point. However, I do not think Harden has had to adapt much at all.


Huh? He switched to PG. I'd say that counts as heavy duty adapting.

BadGuy wrote:

The entire team was built around him (3pt shooters, 3&D, and rebounders/paint protectors).


Rebounders and paint protectors? Who would they be? Clearly not Capela and Nene. Now, Westbrook does have those. He has one of the best frontlines in basketball. Usually a solid frontline is a positive for a guard, but we are all supposed to believe his teammates are scrubs this year.

BadGuy wrote:

When he was asked to adapt to another "star" player in Houston, he couldn't.


They got to the WCF's....

BadGuy wrote:
He has a former allstar in the prime of his career (Eric Gordon), whose game has not benefited at all on the offensive end from playing with Harden. Meanwhile, Oladipo is having a career year with Westbrook.


Gordon has never made the All Star team. Oladipo is 24 and in his 4th season. How are you crediting his improvement to Westbrook as opposed to a younger player continuing to grow?

BadGuy wrote:

Are Oladipo, Kanter and Steven Adams significantly better than Smush, Mihm/Kwame, and Odom? Maybe in a vacuum, but, given the new era of superteams, I see it as basically a wash because you need at least 2-3 superstars on a team to compete in the NBA now.


Yes, they are significantly better as a trio. Every source ranked those guys as top 100 players this preseason. Some were even in the top 50. Every one would get a max deal in the open market. You may need 2-3 superstars to compete for a title now, but now for a lower seeded playoff spot, which is what OKC was projected to get this year and what they are on pace for. His team does not suck.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject:

If flops were counted as stats, this would be a non-factor as Haren would be averaging a triple double easily every year.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
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Boy, I am going to find it hard to see how Westbrook doesn't get MVP.


If I had a ballot he'd probably finish 4th.


Where's LaVar in that 4?
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