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rebirthoftheM
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Tons of players have played the game and few have averaged a trip dub. Harden is deserving no dount, but WB gets my vote even though I dont like him


Harden is having a better statistical season than Westbrook. He's 2 rebounds behind him but much more efficient. His numbers are bananas too.

Ton's of players haven't had the goal of averaging a triple double while being on a team where it was a team goal as well. Ton's of players aren't going to be on teams where they can shoot more than anyone else in league history, or where one guy gets to dominate the ball (Harden benefits from that as well), or well teammates come off boards so you can get them. Props to Westbrook for doing it (one of the few capable IMO), but averaging one really hasn't been a focus for anyone else to this extent. I'm sure Magic could have done it if the team allowed him to stat chase like OKC is doing.


The level of homerism here is absurd. Having a better statistical season... how? Besides FG/TS% and assists (slightly, and due to better shooters+ playing in D'antoni's offense) Westbrook has a reasonable to a crushing advantage in pretty much every stat/advanced stat out there.

Btw, both Harden and Westbrook collect the same % of uncontested rebounds

But I'm not a box score guy.. .check out the "impact" stats. Westbrook crushes Harden. I mean the Westbrook-less thunder would not even 20 games. They just simply are not talented enough, nor to do their offensive talents mesh well. Meanwhile and hilariously (though I wouldn't put much stock into this into the long run) the rockets do better when Harden sits.

I wouldn't expect you as a Rockets fan to say otherwise, but Laker fans honestly should stand with Westbrook this season. We saw the unfair hate that Kobe received in 06 for carrying trash to the playoffs. Westbrook is doing this again, in the model of Bean. MVP hands down, as Kobe should have been in 06.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
governator wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
jonnybravo wrote:

I guarantee that if OKC had a fire sale, there would be a line out the door for a lot of their guys. The notion that he's playing with scrubs is outright insulting.


Exactly. Morey would trade everyone on the roster, besides Harden, for either of Adams, Kanter or Oladipo.


OKC has good players but Rockets has good players too and Rockets players fit better than OKC. Clint Capela, Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon, Ariza, Patrick Beverly are just as good as OKC's players.
I'll give Rockets FO more points compare to OKC's in assembling the team but for MVP, Westbrook over Harden


Those players aren't just as good. Neither one is as good as Kanter, Adams or Oladipo.

Neither team has scrubs. As far as fit, I can't agree that a good frontline is a bad fit for a guard.


How then do you explain away the fact that the thunder collapse when Westbrook sits, whilst the rockets are net better when Harden sits (since Dec 1)?

Do i think the rockets are better without Harden? Absolutely not. They too would collapse in the long run because Harden is their MVP in reality.

But if we are going to start saying that their respectively teams are equal, then you're going to have to be checked on it.

Stop the hate. Both Harden and Westbrook are worthy MVPs, but IMO westbrook has a stronger case.


Last edited by rebirthoftheM on Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Tons of players have played the game and few have averaged a trip dub. Harden is deserving no dount, but WB gets my vote even though I dont like him


Harden is having a better statistical season than Westbrook. He's 2 rebounds behind him but much more efficient. His numbers are bananas too.

Ton's of players haven't had the goal of averaging a triple double while being on a team where it was a team goal as well. Ton's of players aren't going to be on teams where they can shoot more than anyone else in league history, or where one guy gets to dominate the ball (Harden benefits from that as well), or well teammates come off boards so you can get them. Props to Westbrook for doing it (one of the few capable IMO), but averaging one really hasn't been a focus for anyone else to this extent. I'm sure Magic could have done it if the team allowed him to stat chase like OKC is doing.


The level of homerism here is absurd. Having a better statistical season... how? Besides FG/TS% and assists (slightly, and due to better shooters+ playing in D'antoni's offense) Westbrook has a reasonable to a crushing advantage in pretty much every stat/advanced stat out there.

Btw, both Harden and Westbrook collect the same % of uncontested rebounds

But I'm not a box score guy.. .check out the "impact" stats. Westbrook crushes Harden. I mean the Westbrook-less thunder would not even 20 games. They just simply are not talented enough, nor to do their offensive talents mesh well. Meanwhile and hilariously (though I wouldn't put much stock into this into the long run) the rockets do better when Harden sits.

I wouldn't expect you as a Rockets fan to say otherwise, but Laker fans honestly should stand with Westbrook this season. We saw the unfair hate that Kobe received in 06 for carrying trash to the playoffs. Westbrook is doing this again, in the model of Bean. MVP hands down, as Kobe should have been in 06.


Moreover- Westbrook and Harden are averaging essentially the same FG % 0.443 to 0.425. The main reason Harden has a better eFG % is because he takes more 3s. Westbrook more than makes up for that disadvantage by grabbing more offensive rebounds and steals in less minutes. But all of that is a waste of breath considering Westbrook is the leader in player EFFICIENCY rating and has almost a 3 point lead over the next closest player. That on it's own silences any arguments.

Amazing how similar Westbrook and Kobe are on and off the court. Hardest working players but still get overlooked/slighted.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:02 pm    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
Tons of players have played the game and few have averaged a trip dub. Harden is deserving no dount, but WB gets my vote even though I dont like him


Harden is having a better statistical season than Westbrook. He's 2 rebounds behind him but much more efficient. His numbers are bananas too.

Ton's of players haven't had the goal of averaging a triple double while being on a team where it was a team goal as well. Ton's of players aren't going to be on teams where they can shoot more than anyone else in league history, or where one guy gets to dominate the ball (Harden benefits from that as well), or well teammates come off boards so you can get them. Props to Westbrook for doing it (one of the few capable IMO), but averaging one really hasn't been a focus for anyone else to this extent. I'm sure Magic could have done it if the team allowed him to stat chase like OKC is doing.


The level of homerism here is absurd. Having a better statistical season... how? Besides FG/TS% and assists (slightly, and due to better shooters+ playing in D'antoni's offense) Westbrook has a reasonable to a crushing advantage in pretty much every stat/advanced stat out there. .


I don't think its homerism. People just like to state their subjective personal opinion is a fact; I guess if it's good enough for the president, it's good enough for everyone else.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:11 am    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:
The level of homerism here is absurd. Having a better statistical season... how?


1. He's better offensively. 32 points on 24 shots is not better than 29 points on 19 shots. You are trying to dismiss efficiency but it does matter. This era of basketball is arguably driven by it. He's also leading the league in assists and has a slightly better assist to turnover ratio.

2. He's better defensively. Westbrook is arguably the worst starting defensive guard this season. It's funny how poor defensive effort was enough to keep Harden off an All-NBA team last season, but everyone is ignoring Westbrook being worse defensively this season.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Btw, both Harden and Westbrook collect the same % of uncontested rebounds


Link please.

rebirthoftheM wrote:
I mean the Westbrook-less thunder would not even 20 games.


And the Rockets would?

rebirthoftheM wrote:
They just simply are not talented enough, nor to do their offensive talents mesh well.


It's hard to mesh when one dude is on pace to shoot more than anyone else in league history, and he's not an efficient scorer. Even harder when that guy chooses to ignore defense so you are playing 4 on 5 on that end every night.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

How then do you explain away the fact that the thunder collapse when Westbrook sits, whilst the rockets are net better when Harden sits (since Dec 1)?


Harden typically rests when the other teams backups are in the game. I also think we have a better offensive system than OKC, but a main reason we do is because our star player has bought into getting everyone involved. Guys aren't just standing around watching him and rarely getting to shoot, like in OKC. Westbrook avg's 10 more shots than his closest teammate. You have to hit our 6th option to see that kinda spread.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:

Moreover- Westbrook and Harden are averaging essentially the same FG % 0.443 to 0.425. The main reason Harden has a better eFG % is because he takes more 3s.


So in other words, Harden is smart enough to maximize efficiency offensively?

LakersAlldaWay wrote:

Westbrook more than makes up for that disadvantage by grabbing more offensive rebounds and steals in less minutes.


But Westbrook has horrible defensive metrics. Opposing guards are killing OKC. Steals don't equal good defense. Harden has avg 1.7 and 1.9 steals over the prior two seasons.

LakersAlldaWay wrote:

But all of that is a waste of breath considering Westbrook is the leader in player EFFICIENCY rating and has almost a 3 point lead over the next closest player. That on it's own silences any arguments.


PER rewards volume scoring and doesn't properly measure defense, which Westbrook is playing at a league worst level.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:

Moreover- Westbrook and Harden are averaging essentially the same FG % 0.443 to 0.425. The main reason Harden has a better eFG % is because he takes more 3s.


Not exactly. Westbrook is averaging about 46% on 2-point attempts and Harden about 53%.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:
But all of that is a waste of breath considering Westbrook is the leader in player EFFICIENCY rating and has almost a 3 point lead over the next closest player. That on it's own silences any arguments.


Ironically, PER isn't a terribly good stat for actual efficiency. Lebron, Curry, Durant, etc. all have much better offensive efficiency than Westbrook, but much lower PER.

None of this is to say I disagree with the larger argument--I'd give it to Westbrook if I were voting, and I remain unconvinced by the Harden plays with better guys and with a better coach and therefore he is better argument. And I fully appreciate that Westbrook is kind of the antithesis of efficiency. He's a Kobe-esque throwback demonstrating what one maniacal man can accomplish on a basketball court, and he's doing something that hasn't been done by the best players in the modern NBA era. Magic couldn't do it, Jordan couldn't, Lebron couldn't....and obviously Kobe never flirted with number anywhere near Westbrook's. I mean why do we care about who is the best player on the best team with the best coach? That's boring, and those guys are going to be in the conference finals and finals achieving the real glory. Let us marvel at a man who has disdain for modernity, disdain for the basketball possible, and is just putting up an impossible season for the ages just for the sake of doing it. We all knew Westbrook was never going to take this team to the Finals. What else does he have to gun for but the record books?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LakersAlldaWay wrote:

Moreover- Westbrook and Harden are averaging essentially the same FG % 0.443 to 0.425. The main reason Harden has a better eFG % is because he takes more 3s.


Not exactly. Westbrook is averaging about 46% on 2-point attempts and Harden about 53%.


No actually, it is exactly. Check the stats. Harden is down to 0.440 and Westbrook is at 0.425 in FG %. Anything else would be an alternative fact. Harden takes a much smaller % of 2 point FGs. At the end of the day this whole FG discussion is meaningless banter. Westbrook has the advantage in essentially every other category per 36. You also have to watch the games. It always felt like Kobe haters didn't actually watch him play and that's the impression I'm getting with this Westbrook discussion. I've watched a good number of Rockets games btw.

Oh and defensive stats can be very misleading considering they are heavily team and system based.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:54 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
He's better offensively. 32 points on 24 shots is not better than 29 points on 19 shots. You are trying to dismiss efficiency but it does matter. This era of basketball is arguably driven by it. He's also leading the league in assists and has a slightly better assist to turnover ratio.


How is he better offensively? Russell has a bigger offensive impact than Harden does. This is irrefutable.

What about the much valued PER, which puts extreme importance on offensive production? Westbrook yet again comes across better.


This efficiency dribble is the same ish levelled against Kobe in 06. Turns out Kobe in 06 had the highest offensive impact other than Steve Nash year, despite his average shooting. And turns out here again that Russell is having an extraordinary offensive impact on a winning team.


Dreamshake wrote:
He's better defensively. Westbrook is arguably the worst starting defensive guard this season. It's funny how poor defensive effort was enough to keep Harden off an All-NBA team last season, but everyone is ignoring Westbrook being worse defensively this season.


Although much of the evidence opposes this analysis (Westbrook is better in any reputable defensive metric than Harden lol), the question you need to ask yourself is, how big of a negative is Wesbtrook's D? How is it impacting the thunder? Watching the thunder games, I do not find the impact that much, and therefore, even if we take for granted that Harden plays better D (again- no evidence for this), what should matter is the impact of one's D on the team. And when you look at it from this perspective, it is not an issue.



Dreamshake wrote:
Btw, both Harden and Westbrook collect the same % of uncontested rebounds


I meant to say contested.

http://stats.nba.com/players/rebounding/#!?CF=REB*GE*7&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=REB_CONTEST_PCT&dir=1

Harden is at 20.9%
Westbrook at 20%

They are virtually the same in % of contested rebounds, yet this myth that somehow Westbrook is collecting all the freebies in contradistinction with Harden is ridiculous. Westbrook is collecting close to 2 rebounds more than Harden despite their % being pretty equal. Let's stop this narrative.

Another point re westbrook re rebounding- the thunder a top 5 in both offensive and defensive rebounding %. Stat padding they say...


Dreamshake wrote:
And the Rockets would?


What I do know is that the Rockets would do better without Harden than the thunder would do without Westbrook.

You know what is hilarious too? Harden himself is extremely ball dominant, and in any other season, your arguments could be levelled against him.


Dreamshake wrote:
It's hard to mesh when one dude is on pace to shoot more than anyone else in league history, and he's not an efficient scorer. Even harder when that guy chooses to ignore defense so you are playing 4 on 5 on that end every night.


Again, the efficiency dribble. Russell is about 55% in TS%, whilst Kobe was 56% in 05-06. Yet both men's offensive impact was extraordinary, better than what Harden is doing this season.

I subscribe to the church of offensive impact, not the church of efficiency. To hell with better efficiency if the less efficient dude is being more impactful.


Dreamshake wrote:
Harden typically rests when the other teams backups are in the game. I also think we have a better offensive system than OKC, but a main reason we do is because our star player has bought into getting everyone involved. Guys aren't just standing around watching him and rarely getting to shoot, like in OKC. Westbrook avg's 10 more shots than his closest teammate. You have to hit our 6th option to see that kinda spread.


Which is precisely the point- not only do the rockets have a better system, but they have better offensive talent suited for today's NBA climate.

I don't find it necessary to go into the player v player analysis, but there is no way you can spin away the fact that the rockets are able to survive without Harden, whilst the thunder evidently cannot without Westbrook on the floor. Since Dec 1, the splits look even worse for Harden.

We are talking about on/off splits. If one guys teammates can get it whilst their main guy on the bench, whilst the latter guys teammates cannot get it, chances are the former players teammates are better.

Or you can continue to subscribe to the myth that in reality, Westbrook is the dude who is holding his team back (the same dribble about Kobe in 06).

Honestly, it is like groundhog day. This is the same rubbish we heard about Kobe in 06, and it really irks me, because another great season is going to be undermined for no real reason.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:47 am    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:

How is he better offensively?


I already noted how. You just ignore efficiency. The league does not.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

What about the much valued PER, which puts extreme importance on offensive production? Westbrook yet again comes across better.


PER rewards volume shooting and doesn't properly account for defense. At least one other poster responded to you on PER as well. Maybe you are ignoring that too?

rebirthoftheM wrote:

This efficiency dribble is the same ish levelled against Kobe in 06.


I don't recall folks saying Nash was better offensively than Kobe in 06, based on efficiency. Kobe lost in 06 because MPV's don't go to lower seeded teams. Well, maybe they do if someone is averaging a triple double.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Although much of the evidence opposes this analysis (Westbrook is better in any reputable defensive metric than Harden lol), the question you need to ask yourself is, how big of a negative is Wesbtrook's D?


What evidence would this be? Please post it. Having a hole at one defensive spot is a huge negative. How can one argue that it isn't?

rebirthoftheM wrote:
Watching the thunder games, I do not find the impact that much


We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552

Dreamshake wrote:

They are virtually the same in % of contested rebounds, yet this myth that somehow Westbrook is collecting all the freebies in contradistinction with Harden is ridiculous.


Its not a myth that the Thunder are scheming to get Westbrook boards to help start their fastbreak, especially off missed FT's. It's why he has more uncontested boards than anyone and is killing everyone in uncontested ones off FT's.

rebirthoftheM wrote:
What I do know is that the Rockets would do better without Harden than the thunder would do without Westbrook.


I don't know that. Mike D's system needs a certain type of ball dominant guard to succeed, and no one else on our roster can fill that role.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

You know what is hilarious too? Harden himself is extremely ball dominant, and in any other season, your arguments could be levelled against him.


Harden is ball dominant. But he doesn't have the highest usage rate ever, he's not inefficient with his scoring and he's not completely ignoring defense this season. When he did in years past he got killed for it.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Again, the efficiency dribble. Russell is about 55% in TS%, whilst Kobe was 56% in 05-06. Yet both men's offensive impact was extraordinary, better than what Harden is doing this season.


Please support how their overall offense impact is better than Harden. What are you basing that on?

rebirthoftheM wrote:

I subscribe to the church of offensive impact, not the church of efficiency. To hell with better efficiency if the less efficient dude is being more impactful.


The Rockets offense this season is one of the league's best.. Harden has the most combined points when you consider what he scores and assists on. Again, provide more detail for your "offensive impact" take.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Which is precisely the point- not only do the rockets have a better system, but they have better offensive talent suited for today's NBA climate.


Oh, we clearly have a better system. We maximize our players strength's. They don't defend well so we try to outscore folks. We don't have many great shooters so we rely on volume. That doesn't mean our players are better suited for today's game though. OKC's strength should be with their frontline, on both sides of the ball. But instead, they allow a POINT GUARD to shoot the ball 24 times a night and constantly leave shooters wide open to chase boards. They have solid talent as well. Utilize it.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Or you can continue to subscribe to the myth that in reality, Westbrook is the dude who is holding his team back (the same dribble about Kobe in 06).


The Lakers had a team plan to get Kobe boards in 06? Kobe completely ignored defense in 06? Kobe shot close to 40% in 06? This is a poor comparison.

Edit: Westbrook's shooting is almost up to 43% now. I stand corrected on his % but the overall point still remains. In 06 folks said Kobe had better stats but not enough wins. Harden does not have worse stats than Westbrook this season, and he has more wins.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
rebirthoftheM wrote:

How is he better offensively?


The Rockets offense this season is one of the league's best.. Harden has the most combined points when you consider what he scores and assists on. Again, provide more detail for your "offensive impact" take.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Which is precisely the point- not only do the rockets have a better system, but they have better offensive talent suited for today's NBA climate.


Oh, we clearly have a better system. We maximize our players strength's. They don't defend well so we try to outscore folks. We don't have many great shooters so we rely on volume. That doesn't mean our players are better suited for today's game though. OKC's strength should be with their frontline, on both sides of the ball. But instead, they allow a POINT GUARD to shoot the ball 24 times a night and constantly leave shooters wide open to chase boards. They have solid talent as well. Utilize it.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Or you can continue to subscribe to the myth that in reality, Westbrook is the dude who is holding his team back (the same dribble about Kobe in 06).


The Lakers had a team plan to get Kobe boards in 06? Kobe completely ignored defense in 06? Kobe shot close to 40% in 06? This is a poor comparison.

Edit: Westbrook's shooting is almost up to 43% now. I stand corrected on his % but the overall point still remains. In 06 folks said Kobe had better stats but not enough wins. Harden does not have worse stats than Westbrook this season, and he has more wins.


Not true. Outside of assists (0.2 to Harden per 36), Westbrook has better stats across the board (points, rebounds, steals, turnovers, and blocks). And Harden does not average more combined points no matter which way you slice it- per 36 or actual minutes played. Note that Westbrook averages 2.6 more points than Harden and 0.8 less assists in 1.7 less minutes per game.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:

We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552




There's no way in the world Westbrook should even be ahead of K.Leonard, let alone Harden, in the MVP race when he sacrifices playing defense to pad his stats with fake rebounds.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:15 pm    Post subject:

joeblow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:

We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552




There's no way in the world Westbrook should even be ahead of K.Leonard, let alone Harden, in the MVP race when he sacrifices playing defense to pad his stats with fake rebounds.


Seems like strategy to me. Where do the Thunder rank in transition? I bet near the top based entirely on Westbrook's speed with the ball in transition and the lack of need for a big to make the initial pass to the PG.

It's a trade off, and depending on how the stats line up, it may be a good one.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:59 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
joeblow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:

We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552




There's no way in the world Westbrook should even be ahead of K.Leonard, let alone Harden, in the MVP race when he sacrifices playing defense to pad his stats with fake rebounds.


Seems like strategy to me. Where do the Thunder rank in transition? I bet near the top based entirely on Westbrook's speed with the ball in transition and the lack of need for a big to make the initial pass to the PG.

It's a trade off, and depending on how the stats line up, it may be a good one.

I didn't see anything that seemed like padding stats in that video. Westbrook was going after those rebounds more aggressively than his teammates, and so the other teammate let him have it. This happens often in basketball. Otherwise you'd have two teammates fighting over a rebound, and maybe the other team will grab that loose ball. That video didn't seem egregious imo.

As for Westbrook "not playing defense", maybe they intentionally have him do that since he's their best rebounder. Maybe the Lakers did this to a certain extent in the early 80s with Magic, where even though he played guard they had him under the basket defensively so that he could grab rebounds and either throw an outlet to Nixon or start the break himself.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:18 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
joeblow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:

We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552




There's no way in the world Westbrook should even be ahead of K.Leonard, let alone Harden, in the MVP race when he sacrifices playing defense to pad his stats with fake rebounds.


Seems like strategy to me. Where do the Thunder rank in transition? I bet near the top based entirely on Westbrook's speed with the ball in transition and the lack of need for a big to make the initial pass to the PG.

It's a trade off, and depending on how the stats line up, it may be a good one.

I didn't see anything that seemed like padding stats in that video. Westbrook was going after those rebounds more aggressively than his teammates, and so the other teammate let him have it. This happens often in basketball. Otherwise you'd have two teammates fighting over a rebound, and maybe the other team will grab that loose ball. That video didn't seem egregious imo.

As for Westbrook "not playing defense", maybe they intentionally have him do that since he's their best rebounder. Maybe the Lakers did this to a certain extent in the early 80s with Magic, where even though he played guard they had him under the basket defensively so that he could grab rebounds and either throw an outlet to Nixon or start the break himself.


Whatever it is, it's working- to the tune of an 80% winning percentage.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
joeblow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:

We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552




There's no way in the world Westbrook should even be ahead of K.Leonard, let alone Harden, in the MVP race when he sacrifices playing defense to pad his stats with fake rebounds.


Seems like strategy to me. Where do the Thunder rank in transition? I bet near the top based entirely on Westbrook's speed with the ball in transition and the lack of need for a big to make the initial pass to the PG.

It's a trade off, and depending on how the stats line up, it may be a good one.


They were slightly above league average when this was written 2 months ago. I doubt they would have hopped to the top of the league in that timeframe.

Quote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5qat1j/statistically_analysis_russell_westbrooks/

I've seen many reference OKC's transition offense as a reasoning for scheming around Westbrook rebounds. OKC ranks 13th in the NBA in transition offense and averages around 17 fast break points per game, ~4 higher than league average. Given their overall offensive ranking of 16th overall, transition offense actually has little overall effect on their team efficiency given it's responsible for less than 20% of their total offensive possessions.

After running the numbers, OKC would only average ~0.5 less PPG if they were completely average in transition(efficiency and volume).

OKC's slightly above league average with 27.0 uncon DREB. Factoring for variance and Westbrooks superior PG rebounding skills, he's grabbing right around 40% of all possible uncontested DRBS when on the court. OKC grabs 51.8% of all rebounds with Westbrook on the court. Without Westbrook, they're at 50.9%. That 0.9% drop is largely non-significant. Further more, last season OKC was the greatest rebounding team in NBA history +8.4/game. This season, they're still above average at +3.4, but nowhere near as dominant despite Westbrooks historic REB rate.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:

I didn't see anything that seemed like padding stats in that video.


So you completely ignored the team scheming to have him get boards off FTs or him leaving guys wide open on the perimeter to chase rebounds? I highly doubt part of OKC's game plan is to routinely leave whoever Westbrook is guarding wide open so he can be in position to rebound. If so then they need a new staff.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject:

LakersAlldaWay wrote:

Not true. Outside of assists (0.2 to Harden per 36), Westbrook has better stats across the board (points, rebounds, steals, turnovers, and blocks). And Harden does not average more combined points no matter which way you slice it- per 36 or actual minutes played. Note that Westbrook averages 2.6 more points than Harden and 0.8 less assists in 1.7 less minutes per game.


False. Westbrook is scoring more. His scoring numbers aren't better because he's taking 5 more shots to score 3 more points. He's less efficient all across the board. Efficiency is a part of scoring. He does not average more assists and also has a worse assist to turnover ratio (minor difference though). And defenders are shooting better against him than Harden all across the board, and he leads the league in uncontested shots given up. And harden does avg more combined points, even though that's mostly due to more of his assists leading to 3 point shots.

He's not better at scoring. He's not better at creating points from assists. He's not better at defense (and he's arguably the worst in the league in this area). Rebounding is his lone advantage.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
joeblow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:

We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552




There's no way in the world Westbrook should even be ahead of K.Leonard, let alone Harden, in the MVP race when he sacrifices playing defense to pad his stats with fake rebounds.


Seems like strategy to me. Where do the Thunder rank in transition? I bet near the top based entirely on Westbrook's speed with the ball in transition and the lack of need for a big to make the initial pass to the PG.

It's a trade off, and depending on how the stats line up, it may be a good one.


They were slightly above league average when this was written 2 months ago. I doubt they would have hopped to the top of the league in that timeframe.

Quote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5qat1j/statistically_analysis_russell_westbrooks/

I've seen many reference OKC's transition offense as a reasoning for scheming around Westbrook rebounds. OKC ranks 13th in the NBA in transition offense and averages around 17 fast break points per game, ~4 higher than league average. Given their overall offensive ranking of 16th overall, transition offense actually has little overall effect on their team efficiency given it's responsible for less than 20% of their total offensive possessions.

After running the numbers, OKC would only average ~0.5 less PPG if they were completely average in transition(efficiency and volume).

OKC's slightly above league average with 27.0 uncon DREB. Factoring for variance and Westbrooks superior PG rebounding skills, he's grabbing right around 40% of all possible uncontested DRBS when on the court. OKC grabs 51.8% of all rebounds with Westbrook on the court. Without Westbrook, they're at 50.9%. That 0.9% drop is largely non-significant. Further more, last season OKC was the greatest rebounding team in NBA history +8.4/game. This season, they're still above average at +3.4, but nowhere near as dominant despite Westbrooks historic REB rate.


Just checked, they're 3rd in the league in transition, having barely dropped off from losing a top 3 player. That's impressive, and a strategy opposing teams no doubt have to plan for. Considering their options offensively(who's spreading the floor in transition?), I find that stat to be really impressive. Westbrook is a one man wrecking crew.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
I already noted how. You just ignore efficiency. The league does not.


Having an advantage in efficiency is only one part of the puzzle. There are several other parts, the majority of which favor Westbrook. Again, Kobe had a 56% TS in 2006... he was slight above league average. I guess he wasn't the best offensive player that season lol (although he crushed Steve Nash in box score production and was right there with him in terms of ORAPM).

Dreamshake wrote:
PER rewards volume shooting and doesn't properly account for defense. At least one other poster responded to you on PER as well. Maybe you are ignoring that too?


I recognise this. You are acting like my argument hinges on this. PER is only one part of the puzzle- it tries to account for offensive box score production. When two players are relatively equal (interms of other measures and impact) PER can help you decide who is the better offensive player.


Dreamshake wrote:
I don't recall folks saying Nash was better offensively than Kobe in 06, based on efficiency. Kobe lost in 06 because MPV's don't go to lower seeded teams. Well, maybe they do if someone is averaging a triple double.


I do recall folks saying LBJ and Wade were better than Kobe because of raw FG% that season. Come on dude... Kobe's 27 FGA 45% FG shooting was lambasted that year. We are all old enough to remember this, particularly laker fans.

The point is that efficiency is but one part of the puzzle.


Dreamshake wrote:
What evidence would this be? Please post it. Having a hole at one defensive spot is a huge negative. How can one argue that it isn't?



Let me note here: I am not suggesting Westbrook is playing the same level of D as Harden that season. What I am suggesting is no matter how you spin it, Westbrook's lack of D is not causing that much damage, particularly in a comparison with Harden.

https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

Have a look at DRPM (u should familiarise yourself with this, because it does account for your teammates, quality of opponents and sample sizes).

Westbrook's DRPM is -0.41
Harden's DRPM is -1.73

Westbrook's DBPM (a box score measure) 4.5

Harden's DPMB- 1.4

So tell me again how Westbrook's bad D means something in a comparison with Harden?

Do i think these numbers are definitive? Nope... but you need to show something more than anecdotal evidence to trump the data out that says otherwise.


Dreamshake wrote:
Its not a myth that the Thunder are scheming to get Westbrook boards to help start their fastbreak, especially off missed FT's. It's why he has more uncontested boards than anyone and is killing everyone in uncontested ones off FT's.


Yeah and Harden and Westbrook collect about the same contested rebounds (% of total). Much ado about nothing.


Dreamshake wrote:
I don't know that. Mike D's system needs a certain type of ball dominant guard to succeed, and no one else on our roster can fill that role.



Well, the Rockets since Dec 1 having being faring very well with Harden sitting, whilst the opposite is true without Westbrook. The point is- we'll never know. We can only go off what we know atm, and what we know now is that the Thunder collapse when Westbrook sits, in a way the Rockets do not without Harden.

Dreamshake wrote:
Harden is ball dominant. But he doesn't have the highest usage rate ever, he's not inefficient with his scoring and he's not completely ignoring defense this season. When he did in years past he got killed for it.


Basically it comes down to "well Westbrook is worse". You should stick to your guns... in any other year, the same arguments against Westbrook would also apply to Harden.

As for highest usage... so what? The thunder do not have the offensive talent suited to play well in today's NBA without Westbrook orchestrating everything.


Dreamshake wrote:
Please support how their overall offense impact is better than Harden. What are you basing that on?


I will find have to find the same statistical measures for Kobe (although Kobe was #1 in O 2006), and I will find it.

But for Westbrook:

Higher ORAPM (i.e. better net +/- on O when he is on the floor v off the floor)
Higher OBPM
Higher VORP

What does Harden have over Russell? TS% and FG% and a slightly better Ast/TO ratio lol...

Basically all efficiency measures. Again, why should I care about an efficiency advantage when it isn't leading to superior impact?



Dreamshake wrote:

The Rockets offense this season is one of the league's best.. Harden has the most combined points when you consider what he scores and assists on. Again, provide more detail for your "offensive impact" take.


See above. Russell has a better +/- on O than Harden.

This even gets worse when you consider the fact that the Rockets since Dec 1 (i.e. like 4 months of play) have been doing very well without Harden, whilst Westbrook's team collapse without him.

Honest to your god, and with all due respect, I feel like you've missed the train of statistical analysis.


Dreamshake wrote:
Oh, we clearly have a better system. We maximize our players strength's. They don't defend well so we try to outscore folks. We don't have many great shooters so we rely on volume. That doesn't mean our players are better suited for today's game though. OKC's strength should be with their frontline, on both sides of the ball. But instead, they allow a POINT GUARD to shoot the ball 24 times a night and constantly leave shooters wide open to chase boards. They have solid talent as well. Utilize it.


They absolutely are. Run and Gun type of play with shooters to spread the floor, and allow Harden to meticulously pick apart teams on offense through pick and rolls is without a doubt suited to today's play.

Meanwhile the Thunder do not even have a 1/5th of the shooters the Rockets have, nor do they have the offensive coaching required to succeed offensively with a roster such as this. It ain't even close."

As for the point guard jib- I refer you to Jalen Rose ripping apart Skip bayless on this point on ESPN's first take a few years ago. It is pseudo analysis. Westbrook is a combo guard in effect and a damn good one at that.


Dreamshake wrote:
The Lakers had a team plan to get Kobe boards in 06? Kobe completely ignored defense in 06? Kobe shot close to 40% in 06? This is a poor comparison.

Edit: Westbrook's shooting is almost up to 43% now. I stand corrected on his % but the overall point still remains. In 06 folks said Kobe had better stats but not enough wins. Harden does not have worse stats than Westbrook this season, and he has more wins.
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Well many suggested that Kobe ignored D during those years so yeah...

And what is your obsession with FG? Harden aint very flashy in his FG% too (worse than Kobe in 2006)... again, It appears your are stuck in 2006 where FG% is the barometer by which you judge scoring efficiency.

Kobe was 56% in 2006
Wesbtrook is at 55%
Harden at 60%

Does the scoring efficiency advantage help Harden's case? Yes... but it doesn't trump impact.

When comparing two superstars in a most valuable player contest, you need to consider how valuable they are to their respective teams. Box score production and other metrics (the majority which favour Westbrook) should come secondary to this.

Again, Westbrook has a higher ORPM, DRPM and RPM. Simply put, he is having more impact on his team no matter how you spin it.


Honestly, and I mean no disrespect by this DS, your posts remind of me of NBA commentary in 2006. NBA analysis has developed. You need to account for this.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:12 am    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
USCandLakers wrote:
joeblow wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:

We clearly see different things. When I watch OKC, I see stuff like this all the time:

https://twitter.com/LakeShowYo/status/847921839179415552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23847921839179415552




There's no way in the world Westbrook should even be ahead of K.Leonard, let alone Harden, in the MVP race when he sacrifices playing defense to pad his stats with fake rebounds.


Seems like strategy to me. Where do the Thunder rank in transition? I bet near the top based entirely on Westbrook's speed with the ball in transition and the lack of need for a big to make the initial pass to the PG.

It's a trade off, and depending on how the stats line up, it may be a good one.


They were slightly above league average when this was written 2 months ago. I doubt they would have hopped to the top of the league in that timeframe.

Quote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5qat1j/statistically_analysis_russell_westbrooks/

I've seen many reference OKC's transition offense as a reasoning for scheming around Westbrook rebounds. OKC ranks 13th in the NBA in transition offense and averages around 17 fast break points per game, ~4 higher than league average. Given their overall offensive ranking of 16th overall, transition offense actually has little overall effect on their team efficiency given it's responsible for less than 20% of their total offensive possessions.

After running the numbers, OKC would only average ~0.5 less PPG if they were completely average in transition(efficiency and volume).

OKC's slightly above league average with 27.0 uncon DREB. Factoring for variance and Westbrooks superior PG rebounding skills, he's grabbing right around 40% of all possible uncontested DRBS when on the court. OKC grabs 51.8% of all rebounds with Westbrook on the court. Without Westbrook, they're at 50.9%. That 0.9% drop is largely non-significant. Further more, last season OKC was the greatest rebounding team in NBA history +8.4/game. This season, they're still above average at +3.4, but nowhere near as dominant despite Westbrooks historic REB rate.


Just checked, they're 3rd in the league in transition, having barely dropped off from losing a top 3 player. That's impressive, and a strategy opposing teams no doubt have to plan for. Considering their options offensively(who's spreading the floor in transition?), I find that stat to be really impressive. Westbrook is a one man wrecking crew.


If they are 3rd in the league then I stand corrected. Please link it (so I can have the info for future use, not challenging you).

Are you also ok with Westbrook giving up the most open shots to opponents in basketball to stay by the paint and chase rebounds?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:

Having an advantage in efficiency is only one part of the puzzle.


Efficiency is a major part of the puzzle, especially with how teams are building their teams these days.

rebirthoftheM wrote:
Again, Kobe had a 56% TS in 2006... he was slight above league average. I guess he wasn't the best offensive player that season lol (although he crushed Steve Nash in box score production and was right there with him in terms of ORAPM).


He arguably wasn't the best offensive player that season (see LeBron), but efficiency is not why he lost MVP to Nash.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

I recognise this. You are acting like my argument hinges on this. PER is only one part of the puzzle- it tries to account for offensive box score production. When two players are relatively equal (interms of other measures and impact) PER can help you decide who is the better offensive player.


Not when the metric rewards one of those players volume shooting, no matter how inefficient he is. You say you recognize this but seem to keep overlooking that flaw in the metric.

rebirthoftheM wrote:

I do recall folks saying LBJ and Wade were better than Kobe because of raw FG% that season. Come on dude... Kobe's 27 FGA 45% FG shooting was lambasted that year. We are all old enough to remember this, particularly laker fans.


LeBron was arguably better. It seems like you are shifting the argument now. Efficiency had nada to do with Kobe losing MVP. LeBron didn't win MVP that year either.

The rest of your post seems to focus on RPM, which is also a flawed statistic. Right now, 26 SF's have a higher DRPM than Kawhi Leonard, including Paul Pierce and Luol Deng. If that's your support, we can simply agree to disagree.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5

rebirthoftheM wrote:

As for highest usage... so what? The thunder do not have the offensive talent suited to play well in today's NBA without Westbrook orchestrating everything.


Sure they do. Kanter, Oladipo, Adams, McDermott and Gipson are not garbage offensive players.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Efficiency is a major part of the puzzle, especially with how teams are building their teams these days.


Yes, but there are several major parts of this puzzle, with impact being #1.

LBJ was considered hands down the best player in the 2015 finals, although he shot sub 40% from the field. Why? Because of his impact. His Impact that series was huge.

Again, I stress, Westbrook has more impact for his team than Harden does. This is #1 judge between superstars, not % and other things.

Dreamshake wrote:
Not when the metric rewards one of those players volume shooting, no matter how inefficient he is. You say you recognize this but seem to keep overlooking that flaw in the metric.


What is this myth that Westbrook is inefficient? He is shooting 55% TS, right on league average. Yeah, he isn't shooting 60% like James Harden, but to pretend that Westbrook is having this inefficient season is ridiculous.

In any case, PER tries and measures box score production and takes more into account than volume scoring. It also takes scoring efficiency into account ironically. It should only be used when all things look equal.

Dreamshake wrote:
LeBron was arguably better. It seems like you are shifting the argument now. Efficiency had nada to do with Kobe losing MVP. LeBron didn't win MVP that year either.


I am not shifting the argument. I am trying to undermine the absurdity of this efficiency argument. Just because someone is a more efficient scorer does not mean he is better, or more "valuable". Being valuable has to do with impact. Efficiency can play a part in impact, but you can have a dude who is more valuable than another whilst being less efficient. Kobe in 06 showed this.

As for RPM dismissal... lol. This is what you call a cheap point. You cited anecdotal evidence, and I retorted by showing you there exists no objective data to show this.

You must also missed that I said I don't find metrics such as RPM as definitive, particularly on the defensive end (because defensive impact at the end of the day is team based). But you don't have any evidence to support your contention also. Have you tracked Westbrook's games? Have you noted when his "lack of D" has compromised his team defensively? What was the end result?

Until you can provide such information, then the defensive edge that Harden has is unproven, and should not be used in an argument.

By the way, your citation of Kwahi's numbers just reflects your ignorance. Luol Deng and Paul Pierce play sub 30 minutes again (Luol Deng 27 minutes; Pierce 12mpg). You should not compare players such as this with Kwahi Leonard, and no one who uses data such as this would do this. Again, it appears you're stuck in 2006 analysis and haven't developed your thought process.

And on another note, by consensus, Kwahi's D has declined reasonably this season, in large part due to the extra offensive load he has taken this season. Yeah, he still has great games defensively, and had big plays on national tv, but the night in, night out impact we saw from Kwahi from previous seasons has declined. Don't believe me? Go read spurs forums.

Dreamshake wrote:
Sure they do. Kanter, Oladipo, Adams, McDermott and Gipson are not garbage offensive players.


No spacing and no shooting. Yes, in today's NBA and compared to Westbrook's cast, they are garbage.


I won't be responding again, because it is evident that your approach to things is outdated. I will repeat again, Westbrook is having both the better individual season and individual impact than Harden. He is more worthy of MVP than Harden.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:
I won't be responding again, because it is evident that your approach to things is outdated. I will repeat again, Westbrook is having both the better individual season and individual impact than Harden. He is more worthy of MVP than Harden.


I don't agree, but as of this moment, I think that Westbrook has most likely pulled ahead in the race. Two weeks ago, I didn't think so. Even though I think that he's a stat hound and that he doesn't play winning basketball, the gee whiz factor is getting pretty high. I would put him third, but I expect the media to give it to him . . . as of right now.
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