Westbrook chasing history
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
The season Russell is having is the greatest individual season anyone not named Wilt has ever had. .


I wouldn't agree with that, but the nice round numbers of a triple double are eye-catching.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject:

before this season began how many really thought it was reasonably possible for a player to average a triple double in today's NBA? I remember a few seasons ago when Lebron was on a hot streak and a few articles danced around at only the remote possibility that he could average a triple double and that was pretty much was laughed off as fan fiction.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
The season Russell is having is the greatest individual season anyone not named Wilt has ever had. .


I wouldn't agree with that, but the nice round numbers of a triple double are eye-catching.



Are you somehow suggesting that the "round numbers" are the reason why folks think he is having a GOAT season? Consider the following:

#1 in Offensive Box Score Plus/Minus of 10.7 (Higher than peak MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Barkley, Larry Bird, David Robinson)

#1 in Box Score Plus/Minus (taking into account Offense and Defense) 15.4 (Higher than Peak MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Barkley, Larrd Bird, David Robinson, Steph Curry)

#1 in Value Over Replacement Player 12 (Higher than Peak MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Barkley, Larrd Bird, David Robinson, Steph Curry)

#12 in PER 30.9, 0.92 off ATG record by Wilt ( Jordan occupies 4 of the positions, Wilt Chamberlain Occupies 3 of the positions, Lebron James Occupies 3 of the positions and Steph Curry occupies 1)

These numbers do not capture some of the old timer numbers (before 73) but given Wesbtrook is beating, or on the relatively same level as other GOAT candidates such as MJ, Kareem, Lebron etc, I do not think the differential between he and Wilt would be very different in these categories.

Combine the above with his ridiculous clutch play this season (http://www.82games.com/1617/16OKC1.HTM#clutch ridiculous), and then consider the differential between his team performance when he plays and when he sits and even without the triple double, you have a strong contender for the GOAT contender.

Then he does something that only one dude in recorded NBA History (or perhaps 3 other guys- Wilt and Russell most certainly averaged a triple double at least on in their career) was able to achieve.

At the very minimum, he is on the short list.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject:

Btw at how salty Rocket fans and personnel are behaving over Russell's play and the hype surrounding it. Sadly James Harden bought into the hype too with his commentary.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
before this season began how many really thought it was reasonably possible for a player to average a triple double in today's NBA? I remember a few seasons ago when Lebron was on a hot streak and a few articles danced around at only the remote possibility that he could average a triple double and that was pretty much was laughed off as fan fiction.


If this were Lebron he'd be cemented right now as the GOAT, doing something Jordan could never. But since it's not we have to hear about efficiency.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject:

I remember when 25/5/5 was considered awesome.... Man this era is crazy!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject:

Why downplaying this historic achievement with 'round numbers' argument... it hasn't been done in HALF A CENTURY. You can try to make an argument for Harden to be co-MVP but WB hands down is the MVP
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:05 am    Post subject:

ringThingDoUrThiNg wrote:
I remember when 25/5/5 was considered awesome.... Man this era is crazy!


Well in fairness, due to the advanced statistical tracking, we now know how WB acquired a good chunk of the remaining 7 rebounds...

New statistical tracking gives box scoring watching something amazing, context.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject:

rebirthoftheM wrote:


Are you somehow suggesting that the "round numbers" are the reason why folks think he is having a GOAT season? .


I think if he were averaging 30-11-9 instead of 30-10-10, the hoopla over what he was doing would be a lot less.

I have no problem if you think he is having the best or 2nd best single season ever. He's having a great year. I can just think of other players who I thought had better seasons.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Why downplaying this historic achievement with 'round numbers' argument... it hasn't been done in HALF A CENTURY. You can try to make an argument for Harden to be co-MVP but WB hands down is the MVP


Well, the "historic achievement" is a triple-double, which by definition is nice round numbers. Intrinsically, a triple-double of 20-10-10 isn't anymore valuable than 20-9-11. As human beings, we respond on a visceral/emotional level to round numbers.

That said, I think Westbrook will win MVP.

I also think Harden, Lebron and Leonard will all get some first-place votes, so it won't be hands-down. And it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to me Harden could still won.

It will be interesting to see how the voting shakes out.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:32 am    Post subject:

Westbrook would be the only MVP on a sub-50 win team since 1983.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
governator wrote:
Why downplaying this historic achievement with 'round numbers' argument... it hasn't been done in HALF A CENTURY. You can try to make an argument for Harden to be co-MVP but WB hands down is the MVP


Well, the "historic achievement" is a triple-double, which by definition is nice round numbers. Intrinsically, a triple-double of 20-10-10 isn't anymore valuable than 20-9-11. As human beings, we respond on a visceral/emotional level to round numbers.

That said, I think Westbrook will win MVP.

I also think Harden, Lebron and Leonard will all get some first-place votes, so it won't be hands-down. And it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to me Harden could still won.

It will be interesting to see how the voting shakes out.


Well, I can't disagree with that... will be interesting indeed
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Well, the "historic achievement" is a triple-double, which by definition is nice round numbers. Intrinsically, a triple-double of 20-10-10 isn't anymore valuable than 20-9-11. As human beings, we respond on a visceral/emotional level to round numbers.

That said, I think Westbrook will win MVP.

I also think Harden, Lebron and Leonard will all get some first-place votes, so it won't be hands-down. And it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to me Harden could still won.

It will be interesting to see how the voting shakes out.


I think he will win the MVP, but it won't be the triple double that puts him over the hump. He has made some really big shots late in games down the stretch. If it weren't for that, a lot of people would still be dismissing him as a selfish stat padder. In fact, a lot of us still see him that way. I regard the triple doubles as more of a stunt than anything else. But he sure has made a lot of big shots down the stretch.

OKC is probably going to wind up with only a few less wins than Houston, so the "superior record" argument is less persuasive than it was when Curry beat Harden. Harden has had a really good year, and he would probably win if the Rockets won 60. But they didn't.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Well, the "historic achievement" is a triple-double, which by definition is nice round numbers. Intrinsically, a triple-double of 20-10-10 isn't anymore valuable than 20-9-11. As human beings, we respond on a visceral/emotional level to round numbers.

That said, I think Westbrook will win MVP.

I also think Harden, Lebron and Leonard will all get some first-place votes, so it won't be hands-down. And it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility to me Harden could still won.

It will be interesting to see how the voting shakes out.


I think he will win the MVP, but it won't be the triple double that puts him over the hump. He has made some really big shots late in games down the stretch. If it weren't for that, a lot of people would still be dismissing him as a selfish stat padder. In fact, a lot of us still see him that way. I regard the triple doubles as more of a stunt than anything else. But he sure has made a lot of big shots down the stretch.

OKC is probably going to wind up with only a few less wins than Houston, so the "superior record" argument is less persuasive than it was when Curry beat Harden. Harden has had a really good year, and he would probably win if the Rockets won 60. But they didn't.


I agree with that.

But let me ask this: Do you think if Westbrook had been making all those shots and yet finished without a triple double he'd win MVP?

I'm not sure.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
But let me ask this: Do you think if Westbrook had been making all those shots and yet finished without a triple double he'd win MVP?

I'm not sure.


Doubtful. There are some people who are mesmerized by triple doubles. I can remember having this discussion a few years ago. There was someone who kept insisting that triple doubles were the truest measure of greatness, or something like that. I don't see it. I'd be more impressed with Westbrook if he was 30/5/12. Rebounds by guards tend to be less valuable, and besides a lot of Westbrook's rebounds are contrived.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
But let me ask this: Do you think if Westbrook had been making all those shots and yet finished without a triple double he'd win MVP?

I'm not sure.


Doubtful. There are some people who are mesmerized by triple doubles. I can remember having this discussion a few years ago. There was someone who kept insisting that triple doubles were the truest measure of greatness, or something like that. I don't see it. I'd be more impressed with Westbrook if he was 30/5/12. Rebounds by guards tend to be less valuable, and besides a lot of Westbrook's rebounds are contrived.


That makes sense to me. The way I see it, without the triple double Westbrook wouldn't have a chance for the MVP. Take away that glitter and Harden wins. But you're right it's winning all these close games at the end up the season that is really boosting his chances.

However, if OKC loses their last two games and ends up with 49 wins that might do him in. Some voters will have trouble with an MVP whose team win total is only in the 40s.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:20 am    Post subject:

I had thought Harden had this thing sewn up but more and more I'm thinking Westbrook wins now. The argument for Harden becomes difficult to make. When people look back on this season nobody will think about James Harden.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Rebounds by guards tend to be less valuable


Why?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

OKC is probably going to wind up with only a few less wins than Houston, so the "superior record" argument is less persuasive than it was when Curry beat Harden. Harden has had a really good year, and he would probably win if the Rockets won 60. But they didn't.


1. 8 wins is not a few less wins.

2. The Spurs have 61 wins this season and Westbrook is going to win over Leonard too. The trip dub has made wins irrelevant.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
I had thought Harden had this thing sewn up but more and more I'm thinking Westbrook wins now. The argument for Harden becomes difficult to make. When people look back on this season nobody will think about James Harden.
Yup. Rusty got this in the bag. He made history and that game winner was the icing on the cake.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:

OKC is probably going to wind up with only a few less wins than Houston, so the "superior record" argument is less persuasive than it was when Curry beat Harden. Harden has had a really good year, and he would probably win if the Rockets won 60. But they didn't.


1. 8 wins is not a few less wins.

2. The Spurs have 61 wins this season and Westbrook is going to win over Leonard too. The trip dub has made wins irrelevant.


As should be the case.

Harden is not having a better season than Westbrook. His team has more wins. His team has more talent. The greater amount of wins has nothing to do with Harden. Don't see how that can be used.

Westbrook is getting 10+ assist a game on a team full on non shooters. That's amazing.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:50 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:

OKC is probably going to wind up with only a few less wins than Houston, so the "superior record" argument is less persuasive than it was when Curry beat Harden. Harden has had a really good year, and he would probably win if the Rockets won 60. But they didn't.


1. 8 wins is not a few less wins.

2. The Spurs have 61 wins this season and Westbrook is going to win over Leonard too. The trip dub has made wins irrelevant.


I don't think wins are irrelevant.

The Spurs have 61 wins, but they won 67 last year. It's very hard for a guy to win MVP if his team win total drops that much.

That said, I suspect Kawhi will get some votes largely because of his team's success.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject:

vanexelent wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Rebounds by guards tend to be less valuable


Why?


I'm speaking in broad generalizations here. There have been some really clutch, important rebounds by guards. I am NOT saying that rebounding by guards is worthless, just that it is less valuable.

Having said that, a lot of rebounds by guards are uncontested. In the case of Westbrook, you will see the big men just let him take the rebound. That's fine from a team perspective, as it puts the ball in the hands of your PG immediately, but it isn't as valuable as a contested rebound. OKC was going to get the ball anyway.

Also, if a guard is rebounding, he isn't defending on the perimeter. As has been well documented, Westbrook has neglected his perimeter defense to chase rebounds. Some of his defensive stats are just plain embarrassing. DeAndre Jordan has contested more three point shots than Russell Westbrook. Really? Westbrook is last in the league among PGs in opponent's eFG%. Really? Can you imagine Kobe blowing off perimeter defense to chase rebounds?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:

OKC is probably going to wind up with only a few less wins than Houston, so the "superior record" argument is less persuasive than it was when Curry beat Harden. Harden has had a really good year, and he would probably win if the Rockets won 60. But they didn't.


1. 8 wins is not a few less wins.

2. The Spurs have 61 wins this season and Westbrook is going to win over Leonard too. The trip dub has made wins irrelevant.


As should be the case.

Harden is not having a better season than Westbrook. His team has more wins. His team has more talent. The greater amount of wins has nothing to do with Harden. Don't see how that can be used.

Westbrook is getting 10+ assist a game on a team full on non shooters. That's amazing.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject:

"Don't engage Dreamshake. Don't engage Dreamshake."

engages Dreamshake.

immediately regrets it.


Every time.
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