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999 Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 20265
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:50 am Post subject: Does anyone think David Stern is the main reason why Mitch and Jim got fired? |
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I mean we never recovered from that veto trade. Had it gone through the clippers you see today would be our laker team. |
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Gatekeeper Star Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2012 Posts: 5103 Location: Southland Native
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:58 am Post subject: |
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It was a major setback for us as a franchise, but not the reason for their firings. Mostly it had to do with the lack of communication between the basketball ops camp and business ops. Jim and Mitch demonstrated this just this week before the firings when they tried to trade for DeMarcus without telling Jeanie. It's a recurring theme, Jim being impetuous and doing things his own way often to disastrous results. _________________ Character
Manchester United | Greatest European Moments
Fabric of United - Our Belief |
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LakerFan1977 Starting Rotation
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 581 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:32 am Post subject: |
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LOCK _________________ Hambuger! The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast |
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The Lebrons Star Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posts: 4778
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: |
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No, although that was the start of the downturn. I think the Deng/Mozgov signings and the fact that we still have the 2nd worst record is the main reason (and the fact they thought they would make a difference).
Other than that, I think they drafted well (Magic surely would have taken Okafor over Russell) and it was obvious we needed to tank. I guess it depends whether you think Magic/Pelinka could have signed Lebron/Melo/Aldridge/Durant, etc. |
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noahp45 Star Player
Joined: 23 Apr 2006 Posts: 6572 Location: Oceanside Ca
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Nope
I think it was the high school expectations from the fans that got them fired.
Mitch and Jim made moves they just didn't work out.
At least they swung |
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Stumpy25 Star Player
Joined: 27 Oct 2016 Posts: 1314
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Does anyone think David Stern is the main reason why Mitch and Jim got fired? |
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999 wrote: | I mean we never recovered from that veto trade. Had it gone through the clippers you see today would be our laker team. |
I think Jim is the reason for Jim and Mitch getting fired. Phil Jackson predicted what would happen with Stern in that off season, and they had no plan B prepared. After that Mitch simply followed his boss Jim who took him into quicksand.
I predicted to many friends that this would happen 4 years ago when they didn't hire Phil. I knew Jim was a failure from the beginning. Either Jeanne fired her brother and replace him with a name person of high basketball status or she would eventually have to sell the team. |
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KobeDunk Retired Number
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 26849
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: |
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we would have had a potential lineup of :
Howard (Bynum trade)
D.West (free agent)
Metta
Kobe
CP3 (VETOed Trade)
I would think this could have made a major difference in the history of the franchise and NBA since 2011 |
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Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Yeah Jim is has and will always be a screw up. I totally respect Mitch, but I think Jim was the monkey wrench. Jim should be been shown the door a while back, but the Moz/Deng deals finally made Jeanie move. _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
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Yumyumcha Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 751
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: |
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No, Jim and Mitch put themselves in this situation. I actually don't dislike Jim Buss like some of you guys did having seen what McCourt did to the Dodgers and how Dolan and Ranadive run the Knicks and Kings respectively. Mitch and his scouting department is great but neither he nor Buss have much charisma or communicate well which hurts them in trade and free agent pick ups. I'm not sure how Jim could fix that problem but he stood by Mitch and consequently, Jeannie did what she had to do to move forward. So if the Lakers can keep Ryan West and the scouting dept. intact, hire Perlinka for current personnel and cba matters, than Magic can just flash his smile and sell the team to free agents, this might all work out.
Full disclosure: With the exception of B. Scott, I am always optimistic about the state of Laker affairs. |
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fiendishoc Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: |
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The veto was the start of it but not the most direct cause. It set off the chain of events that lead to the family meeting in April 2014 in the middle of their first losing season in a while.
Jeanie was still upset that they passed over Phil as coach. She wanted to bring in Phil into the FO. Jim wanted to extend Mitch. Jim managed to talk her into the Mitch extension with an argument that FO instability would prevent them from signing major free agents. From that point, the criteria became can Jim and Mitch bring in a star player rather than can Jim and Mitch do a reasonable job as GM given the circumstances.
The other item bargained for was that Jim willingly put himself on a timeline in exchange for keeping Phil Jackson out of the FO.
He was neither able to bring the team into contention or sign a star, so he's out. (Though it seemed like he thought that he had until the 2017 offseason to accomplish the latter, given the way the Mozdeng contracts were structured). |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Jeanie is, and will always be, the reason Mitch got fired. Jim never got fired, he is still the same stakeholder as Jeanie is. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7909 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:24 am Post subject: |
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The Veto plus the KFT. Mitch and Jim obviously had no option but the swing for a home run for Kobe. The took a good hack at it, hit it out of the park and Stern brought it back over the fence.
We're now paying the bill to try to get Kobe one more ring, and everyone is B&M'ing. We knew it was coming. We knew what it would be like.
Now that most of the hard part is over, Jeanie has stepped in to "lead us to glory" by following the plan already in place. I just hope enough of the team is still in place to draft as well as we have and that Magic does sweet talk a FA into signing. |
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LakersNewEra Star Player
Joined: 16 Apr 2014 Posts: 1526 Location: Vancouver BC
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Ummm no. They have been stupidly incompetent for a long long time. |
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Runway8 Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22734 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:43 am Post subject: |
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Jerry Buss bought the Lakers in 1979 and got Magic Johnson off the bat, literally with the flip of a coin. The rest is history. Magic Johnson single-handedly ascended the reputations of the two Jerrys. Literally, not figuratively, another flip of the coin, got them James Worthy in 82. And the Lakers couldn't have gone wrong with either Worthy or Dominique Wilkins. Magic would have worked well with either of them. The two Jerrys were damn lucky and got 5 titles out of Showtime. But West didn't do anything with the Showtime assets. Magic got hiv, and the others retired or walked away. If LG existed back then, he would be skeward, I know it because I skeward him back then, pissing and ranting to my friends. It would be 12 years till the Lakers win another title because some big guy in Orlando had a thing for rapping and hollywood. West saw the talent in Kobe, I'll give him that. Still it was a no brainer, secondary move. The goal was to clear cap-space for the grand prize in O'neal. Kobe was low risk, high reward. But the lesson I learn today about my emotions back then is that you never know what you're asking for. If West had done everything I wanted, rebuilding the Lakers quickly by trading Worthy, Scott, Ac, etc. it would have been a completely different history, most likely with no Kobe and no Shaq. The way things played out, it played out nicely. And it didn't play out that way because Jerry West saw the future, it's just timing and luck man.
THERE IS NO SCIENCE to this, and that is why Mitch and Jim got fired. By people who think there is a science to this. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:56 am Post subject: |
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the veto is like 80% of it. it's a very simple analysis:
pretend we had kobe, cp3 and dwight in 2011-2012. now think about the rest.
the veto was devastating. it literally ruined 30 years of laker momentum in a single switch. and i don't think there is any pro team in any sport that had that kind of momentum. |
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activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Does anyone think David Stern is the main reason why Mitch and Jim got fired? |
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999 wrote: | I mean we never recovered from that veto trade. Had it gone through the clippers you see today would be our laker team. |
If the trade had gone through, the franchise would have been dramatically different and probably successful enough that they'd still be around. |
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gblews Starting Rotation
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 Posts: 300
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Does anyone think David Stern is the main reason why Mitch and Jim got fired? |
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999 wrote: | I mean we never recovered from that veto trade. Had it gone through, the clippers you see today would be our laker team. |
An unfortunate turn of events for sure, but as others have pointed out, if Mitch and Jim had done other things that had the franchise moving more quickly in the right direction, that non-trade might now be a footnote in Lakers history.
As it is, because M and J have such a bad track record since that event
( with the exception of our recent draft choices), "basketball reasons" still sticks in the craw of almost all Lakers fans. But when you throw on top of it Kevin Ding's report that if Bynum had been included in the deal instead of Pau, it almost surely would have made a difference.
Of course there was also the belly aching from Dan Gilbert and Mark Cuban, but Bynum in the mix might have given Stern enough "cover" to go ahead with the deal. Ding reported that Bynum wasn't included because he was Jim's one claim to his success as a scout. Thank god for Ronnie Lester. |
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Moses Star Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2008 Posts: 8262 Location: London
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: |
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It definitely had an impact. When you look back at that moment, it could be argued that it affected so much more
1. CP3 would've saved Kobe's legs, maybe meaning he never gets his achilles injury
2. Would've got something for Pau instead of nothing
3. Probably still would've got Dwight, who arguably wouldn't have left
4. Wouldn't have had to give up those picks for Nash
5. Team would've remained in contention, and arguably would be a bigger draw for free agents over last couple of years.
For me, this was the moment where I lost a little bit of love for the game, it turned my perception of how the league is run, I just think it was morally wrong and a huge conflict of interest, I still can't understand how the league allowed that to happen. For me, that tarnished Sterns reputation beyond repair.
I don't think this is the single reason we are where we are, there were a lot of questionable moves by the team following that, but there is no denying the veto moment as something that had a massive impact. _________________ Lakers, Chargers, Dodgers, Arsenal FC.
Mamba Forever
The Marathon Continues
Still I Rise |
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lakersken80 Retired Number
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 38750
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Yes, but they also made a series of bad moves which led to their demise....also Lakers fans don't have a lot of patience for losing. If the Jeannie Buss led team also doesn't experience success then the fans will be calling for their head in the future as well. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Moses wrote: | It definitely had an impact. When you look back at that moment, it could be argued that it affected so much more
1. CP3 would've saved Kobe's legs, maybe meaning he never gets his achilles injury
2. Would've got something for Pau instead of nothing
3. Probably still would've got Dwight, who arguably wouldn't have left
4. Wouldn't have had to give up those picks for Nash
5. Team would've remained in contention, and arguably would be a bigger draw for free agents over last couple of years.
For me, this was the moment where I lost a little bit of love for the game, it turned my perception of how the league is run, I just think it was morally wrong and a huge conflict of interest, I still can't understand how the league allowed that to happen. For me, that tarnished Sterns reputation beyond repair.
I don't think this is the single reason we are where we are, there were a lot of questionable moves by the team following that, but there is no denying the veto moment as something that had a massive impact. |
yup. furthermore, the trajectories of golden state and lebron would have been altered, and hence miami and the cavs. Someone else would've gotten the young guys we now have. THe Spurs likely would have been drastically altered with some of the aldridge, west signings. Lakers may have won another ring or two...kobe with 6, so many things. Durant's move to GS may not happen. SO much. It was really an NBA altering situation that has sort of been ignored (for good reason) over the years. |
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BigGameHames Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015 Posts: 7982
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:42 am Post subject: |
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SuperboyReformed wrote: | Moses wrote: | It definitely had an impact. When you look back at that moment, it could be argued that it affected so much more
1. CP3 would've saved Kobe's legs, maybe meaning he never gets his achilles injury
2. Would've got something for Pau instead of nothing
3. Probably still would've got Dwight, who arguably wouldn't have left
4. Wouldn't have had to give up those picks for Nash
5. Team would've remained in contention, and arguably would be a bigger draw for free agents over last couple of years.
For me, this was the moment where I lost a little bit of love for the game, it turned my perception of how the league is run, I just think it was morally wrong and a huge conflict of interest, I still can't understand how the league allowed that to happen. For me, that tarnished Sterns reputation beyond repair.
I don't think this is the single reason we are where we are, there were a lot of questionable moves by the team following that, but there is no denying the veto moment as something that had a massive impact. |
yup. furthermore, the trajectories of golden state and lebron would have been altered, and hence miami and the cavs. Someone else would've gotten the young guys we now have. THe Spurs likely would have been drastically altered with some of the aldridge, west signings. Lakers may have won another ring or two...kobe with 6, so many things. Durant's move to GS may not happen. SO much. It was really an NBA altering situation that has sort of been ignored (for good reason) over the years. |
you must be a strong believer in the butterfly effect. |
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Threatt_Level Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Jul 2014 Posts: 467
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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No. People need to stop blaming Stern. Jim and Mitch made tons and tons of mistakes since the Veto. The Veto didn't have to be the end of us as a playoff-competing franchise, but by that same token, once the Nash gamble didn't work out, Jim and Mitch didn't fully commit to tanking and gaining assets. We should've been dumping Gasol and taking on bad contracts for draft picks like The Process was doing in Philly. There's no reason we shouldn't have done the Stauskas/Landry trade rather than signing guys like Lou Will, Kaman, and Young and trading picks to get guys like Roy Hibbert. Indiana should've given us a pick to take Hibbert off their hands rather than the other way around. |
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DShotMaker1824 Star Player
Joined: 16 Feb 2012 Posts: 8767
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Kobe would have been playing still if it wasn't for basketball reasons. _________________
"Through the legs to the left, through the legs to the right, we don't run them Laker plays, we just Kobe fadeaway..."
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HumanVictoryCigar Star Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 Posts: 7601
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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trying to hit homeruns going after big free agents that were never coming, year after year after year is what did them in. The Mozzy/Deng signings were the nail in the coffin especially with Deng coming over here and looking like he aged 5 years over the summer. It's not a good look when you're paying the kind of money Mozzy is getting to see him riding the pine. If he was balling, that would be one thing but... he wasn't...
Plus, it seemed like they tried to freeze Jeanie out as to what their real plans were - which was going after big name free agents that were never coming! That was it... that was their plan, land some big name free agents and everything else would magically fall into place... |
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Blackhart217 Starting Rotation
Joined: 03 Jul 2016 Posts: 171
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Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Pre Achilles Kobe and Paul and Howard and IMO Phil for one last hurrah if no Veto prob gets Kobe # 6, even if Howard still left afterwards (would have had 2 shots at it without D'Antoni), Lakers would have been competitive with prime Paul and post-prime Kobe.
But Jim's timeline plus Mosgov/Deng was their downfall. I wouldn't have minded if Mitch got 1 more year if no Mos/Deng but it was just too brutal. |
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