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How long does management/fans wait if this were the case?
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ringfinger
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Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:40 am Post subject:

Wildchild027 wrote:

BynumForThree wrote:

CabinCreek44 wrote:

From what I've seen, Pelinka knows that the only way back to respectability anytime soon is by signing a big time free agent or swinging a trade.

He was on Spectrum Sports last night (taped interview) and told Chris McGee (paraphrasing), "We like all of our young talent, but we're 29th in the league." So that seems to speak volumes about where his head is at.

When you're "Building thru the draft" you're in NBA Hell. Pelinka clearly knows that.

Then he's an idiot considering the new CBA makes it significantly harder to accomplish that. In fact, it encourages to build through the draft.

He's such an idiot, that only two teams in last ten years have actually won a title, building thru the draft.

Not this again. Once again, as with just about everything, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The key to success is blending free agent signings with good drafting. Building exclusively through the draft is risky because it can be a crapshoot. But relying exclusively on signings is risky because it generally gives you a smaller window.

Every single NBA championship team in the past 10 years had key components of their success come from both drafted players and acquired (signed or traded for) players.

Cavs - Irving (draft), Love (acquired), Lebron (acquired)
Warriors - Curry (draft), Green (draft), Klay (draft), Iguodala (acquired)
Spurs - Duncan (draft), Manu (draft), Parker (draft), Kawhi (acquired)
Heat - Lebron (acquired), Bosh (acquired), Wade (draft)
Dallas - Nowitzki (draft), Kidd (acquired)
Lakers - Bryant (draft), Gasol (acquired), Bynum (draft)
Celtics - Garnett (acquired), Pierce (draft), Allen (acquired), Rondo (draft)

Now I will say, the more you can rely on drafted players, the longer your window will generally be so I agree with that idea. But, at the end of the day, you have to draft to complement your signed guys or sign guys to compliment your drafted guys.

Last edited by ringfinger on Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:43 am; edited 1 time in total

Four Decade Bandwagon
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Joined: 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 8147

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:41 am Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:

Wildchild027 wrote:

LakerSD wrote:

Wildchild027 wrote:

Half a decade, on top of the four years they have already missed the playoffs?

If they get Fultz or ball I think they compete for playoff spot next season. Then you play the 2018 FA market to legitimately compete for getting to conference finals.

Personally I would run with:

Ball/Fultz
Russell
Ingram
Randle/Nance
Zubac

At least give half of 2017-18 season to assess this lineup, imo.

Unless Fultz or Ball are Tim Duncan rookie level good, we will not win enough games to compete for the 8th seed. I think getting the 8th seed this year will require about 38 games. You really see a team going from 20 wins to 38 games with an 19 y/o rookie.

All I'm saying is I see the potential to win 35+ and be trending into a bright future. Let's just say they trade 2 of the following 3 for PG13: Ingram/Russell/top 3 pick. You MIGHT win 35-40 games but you are basically Indiana pacers west until you get another star player.

Just don't think the lakers are there. Why not see what adding fultz/ball will do before trading assets away. Also, this is a different nba, it's just hard to get a Shaq level player in free agency. I'm just not sure hovering around the 7/8 seed as pacers west is worth it, especially for a franchise known for the only goal being championship. Some organizations are happy with playoffs, just think lakers would be back in the same position in a couple of years if they make desperation trade for PG13 or butler. Just look at the bulls and pacers. I think most laker fans would be pissed off if lakers were stuck in that mediocrity over the next 3-5 years.

I don't think many are arguing with your reasoning. Just that it may not be the direction the front office is looking to take.

Would love to see them be patient and build chemistry and team identity. Just do not see it happening. Not sure they see the same "Laker fans pissed at being stuck in mediocrity" issue with a team that has hovered around 20 wins and missed the playoffs the past four years. Hovering in Bulls or Pacers mediocrity sounds better then it ever did before.

Whether we like it or not, there is a very real possibility a top 3 pick is moved for a marketable All-Star. The Lakers can also maneuver the cap to add one more big contract and player in free agency.

I hope Magic and Co do not overpay. But I am preparing myself for a "blockbuster" trade for George, Butler or similar with a couple assets/players. Then a free agent signing worthy of Magic's status as a recruiter. Maybe Rose?

My preference would be to be targeting one of Teague, Holiday or even Hill to run the team. Not sure if they have enough star power though.

Lakers can sell tickets, jerseys and playoff hopes with George and Rose type marquee names. I just hope it is not Anthony or Love they trade for! Just depends on the trade price on how we feel about how shrewd a negotiator he (and Pelinka) truly are.

All this likely sounds as if I have little confidence in Magic. I am hoping for the best but am truly concerned business decisions may override good basketball ones. We shall see.

richmorgan12
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Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 595

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:46 am Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:

Then a free agent signing worthy of Magic's status as a recruiter. Maybe Rose?

Rose is garbage.

yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:47 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

Wildchild027 wrote:

BynumForThree wrote:

CabinCreek44 wrote:

Then he's an idiot considering the new CBA makes it significantly harder to accomplish that. In fact, it encourages to build through the draft.

He's such an idiot, that only two teams in last ten years have actually won a title, building thru the draft.

Needs to be an ideal mix of both. OKC/Warriors were outliers somewhat (OKC mostly) with drafting multiple HOF players.
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23778

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:49 am Post subject:

richmorgan12 wrote:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:

Then a free agent signing worthy of Magic's status as a recruiter. Maybe Rose?

Rose is garbage.

Yeah I mean if Magic does what FDB anticipates, the lakers are basically the knicks.

If Magic brings on Rose, this franchise is in deep, deep trouble. Even Phil and Dolan will laugh at us.

Four Decade Bandwagon
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Joined: 18 Jul 2014
Posts: 8147

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:45 am Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:

richmorgan12 wrote:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:

Then a free agent signing worthy of Magic's status as a recruiter. Maybe Rose?

Rose is garbage.

Yeah I mean if Magic does what FDB anticipates, the lakers are basically the knicks.

If Magic brings on Rose, this franchise is in deep, deep trouble. Even Phil and Dolan will laugh at us.

I have a well developed imagination. I can envision all kinds of scenarios or possibilities. I hope I am wrong about Magic and the moves. My biggest concern lies in the focus of the decisions. When the Knicks first brought in Isaiah Thomas wasn't he considered to be the Franchise savior too?

I just think that there is a strong possibility image and (for lack of a better term) politics will be an overwhelming influence on any moves this summer. No way do I see Magic and Jeanie accepting a status quo or business as usual approach. Changes are coming IMO.

At least 3-4 of the young core are going to be moved. The Lakers will go from a young 3 year plan to a vet "win now" team. Not Championships but playoffs as the goal. Even Mozgov and Deng may be better fits for the possible changes in the roster.

I personally do not like Rose either. Just throwing out a marquee name from the free agent list. Like I stated. Marketing a George /Rose pairing allows the FO to beat their chests and proclaim "see what we did".

I sincerely hope Magic/Pelinka/ Jeanie are more patient then I am speculating. But my imagination runs wild with the possibilities, good and bad.

supermegamen
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Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 962

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:54 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

Wildchild027 wrote:

BynumForThree wrote:

CabinCreek44 wrote:

Then he's an idiot considering the new CBA makes it significantly harder to accomplish that. In fact, it encourages to build through the draft.

He's such an idiot, that only two teams in last ten years have actually won a title, building thru the draft.

completely right. there are very few examples of teams winning that have built exclusively through drafting players or building with young players. even the Warriors have added key (and not cheap) components like Iggy and Bogut, that have been huge parts of them winning it all.

just remember the Clippers back at the start of the century. they had arguably one of the most talented and exciting young cores back in the day. everyone thought they were going to be the team of the future. Lamar Odom (4th overall), Elton Brand (1st overall), Corey Maggette (13th overall), Quentin Richardson (18th overall). Michael Olowokandi who was a #1 pick, Darius Miles (3rd overall) who was so gifted athletically and physically. even had Andre Miller (8th overall) at some point running the show. just didn't work out for them and players either became journeymen, were injured or out of the league pretty soon. plus they blew the team up every couple seasons instead of building and adding players, so I think there's a lot to be learned for the Lakers here.

Fortysixn2
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Joined: 22 Jun 2016
Posts: 2849

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:11 am Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:

I'm going to say 1... maybe 2 of those players will not be Lakers next season... no evidence, but just a hunch...

I feel the same way. I like most of the young guys, I even like Randle...I just don't think he's a fit long term for us because he can't do anything that the modern NBA asks of PF's...shoot or defend. He kind of kills Waltons idea of a positionless offense and the PF spot has some studs, Davis, Boogie...etc. At the very least we need a defensive/rebounding PF.

With our young guys we need more defense, BI/Russell/Clarkson/Zu have enough offense between them to secure 100pts a night...but defensively we don't have a good player on our whole team except for nwaba.

To me, if you get a top 2 pick...keep it and hope for 2018 FA with PG13. If you lose it or end up #3, all bets are off. I'd contact Indy and tell them that Russell/BI/Zu are all off limits, they can have whoever else including picks they want for George as long as he'll sign an extension.

I know Bird is proud, but he'd be an idiot to turn down young talent/picks for a player who is clearly not staying beyond next year.

BynumForThree
Star Player

Joined: 27 Feb 2016
Posts: 1254

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:18 am Post subject:

Wildchild027 wrote:

BynumForThree wrote:

CabinCreek44 wrote:

Then he's an idiot considering the new CBA makes it significantly harder to accomplish that. In fact, it encourages to build through the draft.

He's such an idiot, that only two teams in last ten years have actually won a title, building thru the draft.

-Golden State drafted Curry, Klay, Barnes, Draymond
-Cleveland drafted Irving, Thompson and got Love because they got the #1 pick in the draft. They also drafted Lebron but he's a strange case. He wouldn't have gone "back home" of he didn't get drafted there
-Do I really need to explain the Spurs? lol

Aside from Miami, a majority of the championship teams built their CORES through the draft. Did I say they drafted every single starter in the draft? No but almost all teams drafted their cores with the exception of Miami and that's what the new CBA is trying to avoid.

Trading Russell and this year's pick for PG13 and hoping we "attract other free agents" is a fruitless endeavor and increasingly harder with the new CBA.

richmorgan12
Starting Rotation

Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 595

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:22 am Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:

I personally do not like Rose either. Just throwing out a marquee name from the free agent list.

Rose was a marquee name 6 years ago. Now he is garbage and any team that signs or trades for him will regret it. He can't even bother to show up for games and he will almost certainly tear up one of his knees again in the very near future.

pmacla
Star Player

Joined: 31 Aug 2012
Posts: 7849
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:27 am Post subject:

I can deal if we end up with 20 wins this year BUT next year I would like to see the win total be in the mid 30's and improve every year from there

richmorgan12
Starting Rotation

Joined: 13 Feb 2017
Posts: 595

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:32 am Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:

Wildchild027 wrote:

BynumForThree wrote:

CabinCreek44 wrote:

Then he's an idiot considering the new CBA makes it significantly harder to accomplish that. In fact, it encourages to build through the draft.

He's such an idiot, that only two teams in last ten years have actually won a title, building thru the draft.

I agree with your thinking completely, but don't expect to convince people who will trade cows for magic beans.

Inspector Gadget
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Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46631

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:22 pm Post subject:

I think it's a given that a few of the young players will be moved.

activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject:

BynumForThree wrote:

Aside from Miami, a majority of the championship teams built their CORES through the draft. Did I say they drafted every single starter in the draft? No but almost all teams drafted their cores with the exception of Miami and that's what the new CBA is trying to avoid. .

I'd say the Spurs and Warriors built their teams mostly through the draft.

I'd say the combination approach (where you acquire key players through all three channels, drafting, trades and free agency) is the most common way to build a ring team.

Let's look at the rotation guys on our last ring team:

Kobe (draft/trade - depending on your POV)
Pau (trade)
Bynum (draft)
Metta (free agency)
Odom (trade)
Fisher (free agency)
Brown (trade)
Farmar (draft)

Legacy
Star Player

Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 7054
Location: So. Californ-I-A

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject:

If we still have this roster heading into next season (along with a high draft pick) I expect the FO to wait until an exceptional opportunity presents itself to make a significant change. If we start trading because we're unhappy/impatient, then we'll just be starting over again. Right back to where we were at the beginning of the last 2 seasons. Only another team will have our young talent. I'm trusting the process, and I'm putting faith in Magic and Pelinka. As a fan, there really is no other choice.

kwase
Star Player

Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 3069

Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:50 pm Post subject:

At some point we have to sign a big FA. We can't just draft our way into contention, it just doesn't work that way. I trust Magic though, he's always been a winner.

LAKERMIKE2
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Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 2080
Location: Jack's Crib

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:34 pm Post subject:

Legacy wrote:

If we still have this roster heading into next season (along with a high draft pick) I expect the FO to wait until an exceptional opportunity presents itself to make a significant change.

If we start trading because we're unhappy/impatient, then we'll just be starting over again. Right back to where we were at the beginning of the last 2 seasons. Only another team will have our young talent.

I'm trusting the process, and I'm putting faith in Magic and Pelinka. As a fan, there really is no other choice.

I'm feeling the same way, if you want to upgrade wait until they're complete free agents & keep the talent we drafted, patience is the key. Gotta give these kids & optional free agent at least 2 full maturity seasons...
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