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Lakerpark Star Player
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 2117
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:54 am Post subject: Incompatible pieces? |
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Sorry, I didn't know where to put this...
Is it possible the cause for the Lakers failures is that the team is made up of incompatible or poorly fitting pieces? Sure they are youngsters, but they just seem so out of whack on the court. I'm assuming Luke's coaching isn't the problem.
1. The majority of the players can't shoot or won't shoot from outside. I don't think you can win a lot of games if all you can do is make layups and close in shots. And some guys have a problem with that <Ahem, Randle, Mozgov>
2. Apparently all of the players can't play defense. (except Nwaba now)
3. There are a lot of useless, non-productive veterans (baby sitters) taking up cap space and roster spaces.
4. As much as I like Nance, it seems like he and Randle as a PF Tandem is not good enough. Unless one of both of them learns to shoot, and I mean really shoot, by next season, they will be a liability to the Lakers offense. If the Lakers are lucky enough to get LBall, it would seem that the advantages of Randle's push the ball abilities would be outweighed by his inability to shoot the long ball. If either Nance or Randle don't become productive stretch 4s by next season the Lakers should package one of them with the Houston pick and "sweetners" and get a better first round pick and draft a real stretch 4.
5. The Lakers can't keep filling the roster with rookies. Next season, DLo (3rd Season), Clarkson & Randle (4th Season) it's time for them to start growing up. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:56 am Post subject: |
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We have a lot of incompatible parts IMO.
We will hopefully be building a team around DLO/Ingram/Top 3 pick. The others should be analyzed as to whether the fit/don't fit with that paradigm. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16703
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Dlo. Bi, zub are the only real compatible pieces or at least complimentary pieces we have. I like nance, Tarik, jr, trob though |
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Lakerz113 Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 2445
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:05 am Post subject: |
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yinoma2001 wrote: | We have a lot of incompatible parts IMO.
We will hopefully be building a team around DLO/Ingram/Top 3 pick. The others should be analyzed as to whether the fit/don't fit with that paradigm. |
Totally agree time to decide which youngsters to build around. Try to package some of the younger players or future picks to try and unload moz or dent to free up space for free agents. I'm all for rebuilding but at some point you have to grab someone is freeagency to take this team to the next level. Unfortunately we are in a tough spot with those two horrible contracts I hope pelinka can find a way to get rid of one of them at least . |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Lakerz113 wrote: | yinoma2001 wrote: | We have a lot of incompatible parts IMO.
We will hopefully be building a team around DLO/Ingram/Top 3 pick. The others should be analyzed as to whether the fit/don't fit with that paradigm. |
Totally agree time to decide which youngsters to build around. Try to package some of the younger players or future picks to try and unload moz or dent to free up space for free agents. I'm all for rebuilding but at some point you have to grab someone is freeagency to take this team to the next level. Unfortunately we are in a tough spot with those two horrible contracts I hope pelinka can find a way to get rid of one of them at least . |
Jules will be an interesting test case. He will want 18-20m/year, and I'm not sure about paying him that much. Not sure about his fit to with a DLO/BI/Top 3 core either. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Lakerz113 Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 2445
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:13 am Post subject: |
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I understand adding someone like a Paul George or butler doesn't make us a finals contender, but it does start to restore our respectability and start the domino effect for other free agents wanting to come here. I love all of our young players but I really think it would be best to test the market and see what we could get for players like Clarkson Jules nance exc. |
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pio2u Retired Number
Joined: 26 Dec 2012 Posts: 54570
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:18 am Post subject: |
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IMO everyone is expendable IF the price is right. |
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KBH Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 12171
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:23 am Post subject: |
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I think D'Lo, BI and Zu (assuming improvement on D) fit together well. Randle needs to continue working on his J and off ball skills overall before we know if he fits with the rest of the group. Clarkson, imo, fits insofar as he serves as an offensive spark plug off the bench. |
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ringfinger Retired Number
Joined: 08 Oct 2013 Posts: 29418
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:25 am Post subject: |
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I think Jules should be moved for a forward that can shoot. Let's just say you have a guy like Ryan Anderson. That opens it up for the guards and for Zubac as well.
We would miss Julius' ability to make plays with the ball which I really do like, but his tunnel vision and ISO style once we're in a halfcourt setting, in addition to his lazy defense, and inability to shoot the basketball, really make it difficult for the other guys particularly in a halfcourt setting when the defense is set. |
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Lakerz113 Star Player
Joined: 15 Mar 2015 Posts: 2445
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:27 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | I think Jules should be moved for a forward that can shoot. Let's just say you have a guy like Ryan Anderson. That opens it up for the guards and for Zubac as well.
We would miss Julius' ability to make plays with the ball which I really do like, but his tunnel vision and ISO style once we're in a halfcourt setting, in addition to his lazy defense, and inability to shoot the basketball, really make it difficult for the other guys particularly in a halfcourt setting when the defense is set. |
I think a stretch four would make this offense run much better as well. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: |
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ringfinger wrote: | I think Jules should be moved for a forward that can shoot. Let's just say you have a guy like Ryan Anderson. That opens it up for the guards and for Zubac as well.
We would miss Julius' ability to make plays with the ball which I really do like, but his tunnel vision and ISO style once we're in a halfcourt setting, in addition to his lazy defense, and inability to shoot the basketball, really make it difficult for the other guys particularly in a halfcourt setting when the defense is set. |
Or, get a stretch big with cap space this summer. Ilayosva, Patterson, etc. who can come in and play solid minutes off the bench. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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LakerDYnasty72 Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 4568
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:34 am Post subject: |
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These are definitely incompatible pieces. It's the main reason for the management change. You've got guys who can pass, but to guys who can't shoot well. You've got guys who are ultra-iso inclined in Julius, Young & Clarkson, with players like Russell & Ingram, who can pretty much play with anyone because of their unselfishness.
And, as the op pointed out, none of them are defensively-minded with the exceptions of Nance jr, Brewer, and now Nwaba. And guess what none of them can do consistently? Shoot the ball.
Add to that Deng & Mozzie on four year contracts and you've got the recipe for a management change. |
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danzag Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 Posts: 22313 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:49 am Post subject: |
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I think that Randle and Clarkson are the problematic ones. |
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richmorgan12 Starting Rotation
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 Posts: 595
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Lakerz113 wrote: | I understand adding someone like a Paul George or butler doesn't make us a finals contender, but it does start to restore our respectability and start the domino effect for other free agents wanting to come here. |
No, it doesn't. The new CBA makes it highly unlikely that any team other than Golden State, Cleveland or the Spurs gets a top free agent. And if the agreement had been in place 3 years ago, it's possible that Aldrich and Durant would have stayed where they were.
Last edited by richmorgan12 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:53 am; edited 2 times in total |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23778
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:51 am Post subject: |
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danzag wrote: | I think that Randle and Clarkson are the problematic ones. |
Agree, I see those as the 2 most incompatible pieces. |
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pmacla Star Player
Joined: 31 Aug 2012 Posts: 7849 Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:55 am Post subject: |
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I think you see Randle and Nance taking more 3's now because Lakers know they need a stretch 4 and want to see if those guys can be consistent enough from 3 to be a threat
With Clarkson reason he is running the "PG" position is to see if he can be the PG coming off the bench next year |
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nash Star Player
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 Posts: 8194
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Incompatible pieces? |
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Lakerpark wrote: | Sorry, I didn't know where to put this...
Is it possible the cause for the Lakers failures is that the team is made up of incompatible or poorly fitting pieces? Sure they are youngsters, but they just seem so out of whack on the court. I'm assuming Luke's coaching isn't the problem.
1. The majority of the players can't shoot or won't shoot from outside. I don't think you can win a lot of games if all you can do is make layups and close in shots. And some guys have a problem with that <Ahem, Randle, Mozgov>
2. Apparently all of the players can't play defense. (except Nwaba now)
3. There are a lot of useless, non-productive veterans (baby sitters) taking up cap space and roster spaces.
4. As much as I like Nance, it seems like he and Randle as a PF Tandem is not good enough. Unless one of both of them learns to shoot, and I mean really shoot, by next season, they will be a liability to the Lakers offense. If the Lakers are lucky enough to get LBall, it would seem that the advantages of Randle's push the ball abilities would be outweighed by his inability to shoot the long ball. If either Nance or Randle don't become productive stretch 4s by next season the Lakers should package one of them with the Houston pick and "sweetners" and get a better first round pick and draft a real stretch 4.
5. The Lakers can't keep filling the roster with rookies. Next season, DLo (3rd Season), Clarkson & Randle (4th Season) it's time for them to start growing up. |
I agree with about everything. We have no synergy between most pieces we have. |
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Tony Anapolis Star Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2015 Posts: 3331
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Please package Randle/Clarkson this summer "fingers-crossed". |
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LakerDYnasty72 Star Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 4568
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:06 am Post subject: |
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LakerSD wrote: | danzag wrote: | I think that Randle and Clarkson are the problematic ones. |
Agree, I see those as the 2 most incompatible pieces. |
Those two plus Young have the most iso-centric games on the team. It was Lou Williams too at one time. They tantalize you with their periodic outstanding game, but the majority of time there's a disjointedness with these two from guys like Russell and Ingram who have a pass first mentality.
I will say that my statement would mean nothing if they were outstanding shooters. |
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Ziggy Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 12712
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Yes they're incompatible. Every single one of the young kids are tradeable for the right pieces. I don't see a future superstar in any of them, but possibly an all-star or two. I'm not as extreme as Morey or Hinkie, but I see them more as assets and have little emotional attachment.
I have a slight affinity for our rookies. I think BI and Zub can potentially be 3rd and 4th options respectively on a competitive team. They are both guys whom I think can be more important to a team than the stats indicate.
Clarkson and Randle will make very nice bench pieces on a competitive playoff team. They will not be starters in this league unless they make a complete 180 defensively.
DLo is a touchy topic around these parts so I'll hold my criticism, but I'll just say I'm not as high on him as some are. He has all-star potential and I'll just leave it at that. I'd still move him if there was a golden opportunity.
Nance Jr. is my favorite current Laker and I'd really hate to see him on another team. I don't know if he'll ever really be healthy with his style of play unfortunately. He's the kind of role player every championship team needs, and even more remarkable, he relishes being that guy.
The one star I would not trade the farm for is PG13 because I think he wants to sign here anyway. |
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KBH Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 12171
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: |
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Ziggy wrote: | Yes they're incompatible. Every single one of the young kids are tradeable for the right pieces. I don't see a future superstar in any of them, but possibly an all-star or two. I'm not as extreme as Morey or Hinkie, but I see them more as assets and have little emotional attachment.
I have a slight affinity for our rookies. I think BI and Zub can potentially be 3rd and 4th options respectively on a competitive team. They are both guys whom I think can be more important to a team than the stats indicate.
Clarkson and Randle will make very nice bench pieces on a competitive playoff team. They will not be starters in this league unless they make a complete 180 defensively.
DLo is a touchy topic around these parts so I'll hold my criticism, but I'll just say I'm not as high on him as some are. He has all-star potential and I'll just leave it at that. I'd still move him if there was a golden opportunity.
Nance Jr. is my favorite current Laker and I'd really hate to see him on another team. I don't know if he'll ever really be healthy with his style of play unfortunately. He's the kind of role player every championship team needs, and even more remarkable, he relishes being that guy.
The one star I would not trade the farm for is PG13 because I think he wants to sign here anyway. |
I don't think you'd get many arguments about this from even the biggest D'Lo supporters. (I'm one of those supporters) |
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Don Draper Retired Number
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28431 Location: LA --> Bay Area
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:45 am Post subject: |
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KBH wrote: | Ziggy wrote: | Yes they're incompatible. Every single one of the young kids are tradeable for the right pieces. I don't see a future superstar in any of them, but possibly an all-star or two. I'm not as extreme as Morey or Hinkie, but I see them more as assets and have little emotional attachment.
I have a slight affinity for our rookies. I think BI and Zub can potentially be 3rd and 4th options respectively on a competitive team. They are both guys whom I think can be more important to a team than the stats indicate.
Clarkson and Randle will make very nice bench pieces on a competitive playoff team. They will not be starters in this league unless they make a complete 180 defensively.
DLo is a touchy topic around these parts so I'll hold my criticism, but I'll just say I'm not as high on him as some are. He has all-star potential and I'll just leave it at that. I'd still move him if there was a golden opportunity.
Nance Jr. is my favorite current Laker and I'd really hate to see him on another team. I don't know if he'll ever really be healthy with his style of play unfortunately. He's the kind of role player every championship team needs, and even more remarkable, he relishes being that guy.
The one star I would not trade the farm for is PG13 because I think he wants to sign here anyway. |
I don't think you'd get many arguments about this from even the biggest D'Lo supporters. (I'm one of those supporters) |
Meh, if you move DLO now you're going to get fleeced. Who in this league that is realistically available has more value than a 21 year old with all star potential? If anything you wait until DLO is more developed and then maybe you consider trading him if, and only if, you're getting a true superstar in return. |
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yinoma2001 Retired Number
Joined: 19 Jun 2010 Posts: 119487
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Don Draper wrote: | KBH wrote: | Ziggy wrote: | Yes they're incompatible. Every single one of the young kids are tradeable for the right pieces. I don't see a future superstar in any of them, but possibly an all-star or two. I'm not as extreme as Morey or Hinkie, but I see them more as assets and have little emotional attachment.
I have a slight affinity for our rookies. I think BI and Zub can potentially be 3rd and 4th options respectively on a competitive team. They are both guys whom I think can be more important to a team than the stats indicate.
Clarkson and Randle will make very nice bench pieces on a competitive playoff team. They will not be starters in this league unless they make a complete 180 defensively.
DLo is a touchy topic around these parts so I'll hold my criticism, but I'll just say I'm not as high on him as some are. He has all-star potential and I'll just leave it at that. I'd still move him if there was a golden opportunity.
Nance Jr. is my favorite current Laker and I'd really hate to see him on another team. I don't know if he'll ever really be healthy with his style of play unfortunately. He's the kind of role player every championship team needs, and even more remarkable, he relishes being that guy.
The one star I would not trade the farm for is PG13 because I think he wants to sign here anyway. |
I don't think you'd get many arguments about this from even the biggest D'Lo supporters. (I'm one of those supporters) |
Meh, if you move DLO now you're going to get fleeced. Who in this league that is realistically available has more value than a 21 year old with all star potential? If anything you wait until DLO is more developed and then maybe you consider trading him if, and only if, you're getting a true superstar in return. |
Yeah. I think he has the highest potential to be a true #1 option. I don't think Ingram/Jules have that. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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Rek Star Player
Joined: 24 Apr 2008 Posts: 2228 Location: SoCal
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Ziggy wrote: | The one star I would not trade the farm for is PG13 because I think he wants to sign here anyway. |
Regardless of where he wants to sign, his level of play doesn't deserve the title of star or superstar. Defense was what set him apart and even that has dropped off considerably. I'm not saying I wouldn't want him coming to the Lakeshow. But, pretty much any trade scenario would be overpaying unless he manages to seriously perform above what he's delivered this season. |
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KBH Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 12171
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Don Draper wrote: | KBH wrote: | Ziggy wrote: | Yes they're incompatible. Every single one of the young kids are tradeable for the right pieces. I don't see a future superstar in any of them, but possibly an all-star or two. I'm not as extreme as Morey or Hinkie, but I see them more as assets and have little emotional attachment.
I have a slight affinity for our rookies. I think BI and Zub can potentially be 3rd and 4th options respectively on a competitive team. They are both guys whom I think can be more important to a team than the stats indicate.
Clarkson and Randle will make very nice bench pieces on a competitive playoff team. They will not be starters in this league unless they make a complete 180 defensively.
DLo is a touchy topic around these parts so I'll hold my criticism, but I'll just say I'm not as high on him as some are. He has all-star potential and I'll just leave it at that. I'd still move him if there was a golden opportunity.
Nance Jr. is my favorite current Laker and I'd really hate to see him on another team. I don't know if he'll ever really be healthy with his style of play unfortunately. He's the kind of role player every championship team needs, and even more remarkable, he relishes being that guy.
The one star I would not trade the farm for is PG13 because I think he wants to sign here anyway. |
I don't think you'd get many arguments about this from even the biggest D'Lo supporters. (I'm one of those supporters) |
Meh, if you move DLO now you're going to get fleeced. Who in this league that is realistically available has more value than a 21 year old with all star potential? If anything you wait until DLO is more developed and then maybe you consider trading him if, and only if, you're getting a true superstar in return. |
I mean, the context was a "golden opportunity" so I was responding to that specific scenario. I agree that it would be hard to proffer such a deal considering his potential and cost controlled salary, though. |
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