Who is your MVP?
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Who is your MVP?
Westbrook
80%
 80%  [ 58 ]
Harden
19%
 19%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 72

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ryan_c
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Who is your MVP?

I believe this is a race between the two only.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject:

Harden, because precedent is to only give the award to players on a 50+ win team.

Harden's numbers aren't even that much worse than Westbrook's.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:10 am    Post subject:

Leonard is in the race. He won't win, but he'll get votes.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject:

It isn't Rusty. Imo, Lebron or Leonard get the vote followed by Harden and Rusty.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:58 am    Post subject:

1. LeBron
2. Leonard
3. Harden
4. Westbrook
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:11 am    Post subject:

Russell Westbrook
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:17 am    Post subject:

i know Westbrook is shameless stat pads but its a HUGE feat nonetheless to avg 32/10/10 in today's NBA and carried his team to a NBA playoff birth. I dont see how you dont give him the MVP. Its easy for the act of averaging a triple double to kinda lose its shock value after you heard about it nonstop for months now but if you put it back in perspective its something truly historical and something I put up there with Chamberlain's 100pt game as something I thought it was nearly impossible for someone to do again in how NBA games are played now
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject:

I'm a Kawhi Leonard fan, and I had James Harden with my vote until the past few weeks ... but I'm thoroughly unsure how I might vote now ... I just don't think it can be denied any longer what Russell Westbrook has done this season. His efficiency is garbage, his turnovers are atrocious, but ...

The guy is winning games in startling fashion ... the narrative that he has no help is false, of course, but he's winning these games seemingly singlehandedly. Stop, sit down, and watch how the wins are happening for OKC down the stretch each game ...

Per 36 production ...

32.9 points (Lakers reference: Kobe Bryant averaged 31.1 in 2005/2006, and 24.9 for his career)
10.9 rebounds (Lakers reference: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar averaged 10.9 for his career)
10.8 assists (Lakers reference: Magic Johnson averaged 11.0 for his career)

It's (bleep) bananas what this guy is doing ...
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
Russell Westbrook
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject:

1. Westbrook
2. Harden
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
i know Westbrook is shameless stat pads but its a HUGE feat nonetheless to avg 32/10/10 in today's NBA and carried his team to a NBA playoff birth. I dont see how you dont give him the MVP. Its easy for the act of averaging a triple double to kinda lose its shock value after you heard about it nonstop for months now but if you put it back in perspective its something truly historical and something I put up there with Chamberlain's 100pt game as something I thought it was nearly impossible for someone to do again in how NBA games are played now


Well, Harden is averaging 29-8-11 and has led his team to the third best record in basketball.

I wonder how many votes Westbrook would lose if he averaged 32-9-11 instead of 32-10-10. How much of a vote for Westbrook is really a vote for our love of nice round numbers?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
i know Westbrook is shameless stat pads but its a HUGE feat nonetheless to avg 32/10/10 in today's NBA and carried his team to a NBA playoff birth. I dont see how you dont give him the MVP. Its easy for the act of averaging a triple double to kinda lose its shock value after you heard about it nonstop for months now but if you put it back in perspective its something truly historical and something I put up there with Chamberlain's 100pt game as something I thought it was nearly impossible for someone to do again in how NBA games are played now


I love Westbrook, and it's impressive what he has been able to do. I just don't think rewarding this type of play is a good thing. His usage is historic. It's not basketball. He set out the year on a quest for statistics. As a spectacle it's cool, but I wouldn't use an MVP vote on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:18 am    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


In some ways I think Harden has the worst case out of all the candidates, which is funny because he's going to win it and I don't have him ranked last. Harden fills the "best player on the team that did better than we thought they'd do" criteria of the race which I've always felt is the weakest argument.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


In some ways I think Harden has the worst case out of all the candidates, which is funny because he's going to win it and I don't have him ranked last. Harden fills the "best player on the team that did better than we thought they'd do" criteria of the race which I've always felt is the weakest argument.


I'd vote Westbrook over Harden. Harden is a tough one for me. His rebounding and ast numbers are impressive. But there are more MVP candidate than this. Even Curry, to me, deserves to finish higher than Harden.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
1. LeBron
2. Leonard
3. Harden
4. Westbrook


That's my list too.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:54 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


In some ways I think Harden has the worst case out of all the candidates, which is funny because he's going to win it and I don't have him ranked last. Harden fills the "best player on the team that did better than we thought they'd do" criteria of the race which I've always felt is the weakest argument.



I'm not sure that's passing expectations is a criteria, or even a consideration in how people actually vote in part because voters don't have uniform expectations for how teams will do. We can only guess what makes people vote the way they do. What we can say is:

-- Houston is set to have a 15 game improvement or so from the previous year -- which is huge. There is a high correlation between guys winning mvps and their teams improving by 8-10 games or more.
-- Houston will probably have the third best record in the league.
-- Harden's personal stats are up there with anybody's this year, and depending on how you evaluate stats they could be the best in the league.
-- Of all the candidates, Harden seems to hit more of the typical criteria with how MVP votes have been cast in the past.

The case for Westbrook seems to be largely personal stats -- going gaga over the triple double. While that's impressive, it would be unusual for a guy to win MVP based on personal stats on a team that doesn't win 50 games.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


In some ways I think Harden has the worst case out of all the candidates, which is funny because he's going to win it and I don't have him ranked last. Harden fills the "best player on the team that did better than we thought they'd do" criteria of the race which I've always felt is the weakest argument.



I'm not sure that's passing expectations is a criteria, or even a consideration in how people actually vote in part because voters don't have uniform expectations for how teams will do. We can only guess what makes people vote the way they do. What we can say is:

-- Houston is set to have a 15 game improvement or so from the previous year -- which is huge. There is a high correlation between guys winning mvps and their teams improving by 8-10 games or more.
-- Houston will probably have the third best record in the league.
-- Harden's personal stats are up there with anybody's this year, and depending on how you evaluate stats they could be the best in the league.
-- Of all the candidates, Harden seems to hit more of the typical criteria with how MVP votes have been cast in the past.

The case for Westbrook seems to be largely personal stats -- going gaga over the triple double. While that's impressive, it would be unusual for a guy to win MVP based on personal stats on a team that doesn't win 50 games.


Passing expectations is absolutely a criteria in people's minds and I don't know how you could argue any different. Our resident Houston fan here has used it to argue for Harden in this very thread. Houston's improvement has been impressive, though you could make the case that's more a product of D'Antoni than Harden. Harden was there last year too. I do agree that Harden will get it and generally fits the criteria (voter fatigue for the other candidate, team improved and beat expectations, upper seed in the conference, etc).

Harden isn't the best player in the game. He's not the best 2 way player. He's not the best player on the best team. Statistically he's having a phenomenal year but people who tend to vote on stats might be more impressed with Westbrook for reasons already stated. LeBron gets my vote because you could replace any of the other candidates with him and those teams would improve. Isn't that the definition of a most valuable player? (I realize the actual award has no definition). Harden is a great player, but I think we will look back at his inevitable MVP win with shrugged shoulders. Basically voters are tired of voting for LeBron, the Golden State guys split votes, and people don't realize how good Kawhi is and don't value defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject:

I could see Lebron being in it if the Cavs were on 60+ pace but there is no way he'd get it with them possibly ending up #2 or maybe even (Gasp) #3 if the Wiz surge over the final games. Even the national media isn't talking as much about Lebron with how the Cavs have faltered toward the end.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:37 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ocho wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


In some ways I think Harden has the worst case out of all the candidates, which is funny because he's going to win it and I don't have him ranked last. Harden fills the "best player on the team that did better than we thought they'd do" criteria of the race which I've always felt is the weakest argument.



I'm not sure that's passing expectations is a criteria, or even a consideration in how people actually vote in part because voters don't have uniform expectations for how teams will do. We can only guess what makes people vote the way they do. What we can say is:

-- Houston is set to have a 15 game improvement or so from the previous year -- which is huge. There is a high correlation between guys winning mvps and their teams improving by 8-10 games or more.
-- Houston will probably have the third best record in the league.
-- Harden's personal stats are up there with anybody's this year, and depending on how you evaluate stats they could be the best in the league.
-- Of all the candidates, Harden seems to hit more of the typical criteria with how MVP votes have been cast in the past.

The case for Westbrook seems to be largely personal stats -- going gaga over the triple double. While that's impressive, it would be unusual for a guy to win MVP based on personal stats on a team that doesn't win 50 games.


Passing expectations is absolutely a criteria in people's minds and I don't know how you could argue any different. Our resident Houston fan here has used it to argue for Harden in this very thread. Houston's improvement has been impressive, though you could make the case that's more a product of D'Antoni than Harden. Harden was there last year too. I do agree that Harden will get it and generally fits the criteria (voter fatigue for the other candidate, team improved and beat expectations, upper seed in the conference, etc).

Harden isn't the best player in the game. He's not the best 2 way player. He's not the best player on the best team. Statistically he's having a phenomenal year but people who tend to vote on stats might be more impressed with Westbrook for reasons already stated. LeBron gets my vote because you could replace any of the other candidates with him and those teams would improve. Isn't that the definition of a most valuable player? (I realize the actual award has no definition). Harden is a great player, but I think we will look back at his inevitable MVP win with shrugged shoulders. Basically voters are tired of voting for LeBron, the Golden State guys split votes, and people don't realize how good Kawhi is and don't value defense.


1. Like I said, I can see historical evidence that improvement from previous seasons correlates with MVP voting (perhaps that's what you mean by "beating expectations" -- if so, no disagreement). If you're talking about beating expectations in a more vague, non-measureable way, itís a difficult thing to even discuss, because it turns into an argument about hazy memories about what expectations people had for teams before the season started.
2. Generally, I don't think voters factor in other changes that led to that improvement. When Iverson won MVP after Philly improved, I don't recall people talking about how it was really due to the 76ers getting Dikembe. Iverson got the credit.
3. I don't think voters care about what-if arguments -- how would teams do if you took away X players? People vote based on what happened, not guesses of alternative scenarios. It's not a referendum on who the best player is in a general sense; it's a vote on who performed better that one reason. Often the two things are not exactly the same.
4. Ultimately, I think people shrug over most MVP awards, except fans of the guys who won or were denied the prize.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
It's not a referendum on who the best player is in a general sense; it's a vote on who performed better that one reason. Often the two things are not exactly the same.


Eh. At no point of this season would any decent basketball person proclaim Harden the best player, even if they were only going by the standards of this season.

Quote:
Ultimately, I think people shrug over most MVP awards, except fans of the guys who won or were denied the prize.


I don't know that they shrug over most MVPs but they definitely do over some of them and this is going to be one of those years in the tradition of Iverson, Rose, and Malone.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject:

If Westbrook doesn't win it it'd be a crime.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject:

USCandLakers wrote:
If Westbrook doesn't win it it'd be a crime.
Not really. If he did win it though, no beefs either. What he's done statistically is amazing. Period.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject:

Westbrook. Harden has been great, but Rockets are also perfect fit for MDA system with shooters around. If you put Harden in OKC, they are probably worse and his stats won't be the same.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
It's not a referendum on who the best player is in a general sense; it's a vote on who performed better that one reason. Often the two things are not exactly the same.


Eh. At no point of this season would any decent basketball person proclaim Harden the best player, even if they were only going by the standards of this season.


That's the point. Your idea that Lebron should win because of your belief that you could put him on the other teams and they would do better is just another way saying he is the best player in the league. But that says nothing about how anyone has actually performed during this season -- which is what the award is about.

I don't see how you can base the MVP award on a woulda-coulda-shoulda guess of how guys would do in hypothetical scenarios.
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