Who is your MVP?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Who is your MVP?
Westbrook
80%
 80%  [ 58 ]
Harden
19%
 19%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 72

Author Message
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 41188

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
It's not a referendum on who the best player is in a general sense; it's a vote on who performed better that one reason. Often the two things are not exactly the same.


Eh. At no point of this season would any decent basketball person proclaim Harden the best player, even if they were only going by the standards of this season.


That's the point. Your idea that Lebron should win because of your belief that you could put him on the other teams and they would do better is just another way saying he is the best player in the league. But that says nothing about how anyone has actually performed during this season -- which is what the award is about.

I don't see how you can base the MVP award on a woulda-coulda-shoulda guess of how guys would do in hypothetical scenarios.


The award is about whatever the voter values. Theres no official criteria. It's whatever the voter wants it to be. My personal criteria isn't a hypothetical. It's based on who is the best basketball player in the year 2017. That is not James Harden. Based off just this season alone I don't think Harden has been the best player. None of that is hypothetical. I used the example of putting swapping the other guys with LeBron because I think it helps illustrate that he's better than them. That example is not the sole basis for my pick.
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 11708

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:

Houston's improvement has been impressive, though you could make the case that's more a product of D'Antoni than Harden. Harden was there last year too.


D'Antoni hasn't had coaching success in years. Harden took his team to the 2nd best record in the West (missing 3 starters for half the season, including Howard), the WCF's and finished 2nd in MVP voting just two seasons ago. So can't agree with ya on that one, as far as it being more of a product of D'Antoni.

ocho wrote:

Harden isn't the best player in the game.


He's clearly not, but that's not the criteria for MVP. If it were then LeBron should just win it every year.


Last edited by Dreamshake on Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 11708

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject:

saetarubia wrote:
Westbrook. Harden has been great, but Rockets are also perfect fit for MDA system with shooters around. If you put Harden in OKC, they are probably worse and his stats won't be the same.


Doubt it. He's just a much more efficient player than Westbrook. Westbrook has more help on his team than Harden had two seasons ago when 3 starters got hurt and he still carried us to a top Western seed. He also took us to the playoffs his first season here without a very good supporting cast. Both years with a vanilla offense and a coach that wasn't great.

This team doesn't have great shooting or better bigs than what OKC has now (considering Howard missed half the season):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2015.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 24791

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
activeverb wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
It's not a referendum on who the best player is in a general sense; it's a vote on who performed better that one reason. Often the two things are not exactly the same.


Eh. At no point of this season would any decent basketball person proclaim Harden the best player, even if they were only going by the standards of this season.


That's the point. Your idea that Lebron should win because of your belief that you could put him on the other teams and they would do better is just another way saying he is the best player in the league. But that says nothing about how anyone has actually performed during this season -- which is what the award is about.

I don't see how you can base the MVP award on a woulda-coulda-shoulda guess of how guys would do in hypothetical scenarios.


The award is about whatever the voter values. Theres no official criteria. It's whatever the voter wants it to be. My personal criteria isn't a hypothetical. It's based on who is the best basketball player in the year 2017. That is not James Harden. Based off just this season alone I don't think Harden has been the best player. None of that is hypothetical. I used the example of putting swapping the other guys with LeBron because I think it helps illustrate that he's better than them. That example is not the sole basis for my pick.


There is no official criteria, but we certainly can see voting trends over the years that tell us what factors that voters think are important.

When people say "best player" they usually mean the player who is considered the best player in the league over a certain period of time. So, say, you might think Kobe was the best player in the NBA during the 2000s.

I don't know what "best player in the league" means in the context of a single season.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
rebirthoftheM
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 429

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject:

This is Russell Westbrook pretty clearly. If you want stats, the man wins out . If you want "impact" then he blows everyone out of the water as the numbers show.

Honestly, if you believed Kobe in 06 was the MVP (which I most certainly did) then Westbrook should be your automatic vote. Truly historical stuff.
_________________
It doesn't matter how they come, wins are wins. At the end of the day, style doesn't mean anything in June. You win or you don't. A message to "true" laker fans..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
BruceLeroy1985
Starting Rotation
Starting Rotation


Joined: 01 Dec 2013
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject:

Man, I swear Harden and Rockets fans want the MVP more than the title. It is hilarious reading their forum. You would think MVP is not nearly as prestigious as the Larry O'brien trophy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
kwase
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Mar 2008
Posts: 1942

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject:

Kawhi Leonard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
nevitt_smrek
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 2494

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
Kawhi Leonard


Should finish ahead of Harden in the voting as well. The best 2-way player, all-pro on both ends, out of all the MVP candidates. People love touting defense, yet don't vote that way.
_________________
Smrek 2, Nevitt 1, Barkley 0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ChickenStu
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 7232
Location: Anaheim, CA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


Sorry, but that is just silly, and the stats back me up. Westbrook has 4.1 defensive win shares and a 4.5 DBPM, while Harden is at 3.4 and 1.4, respectively. That 1.4 DBPM mark actually represents Harden's best effort as a pro, so perhaps he hasn't quite been as much of a dog on D as he has been in the past. Still, he's not a better defender than Russell Westbrook is.

I will note that Kawhi Leonard also has a DBPM of 1.4 this season. Stats don't always tell the story, yeah. But it's a huge leap for me to think that Harden has played better D than Westbrook this season.
_________________
My current plan of attack:

Get involved in this Melo-to-Houston trade, making it a 4-teamer with MIL and us. Deng ends up going to the Knicks, who get picks from us and MIL; we absorb Monroe's expiring.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Dreamshake
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 11708

PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


Sorry, but that is just silly, and the stats back me up. Westbrook has 4.1 defensive win shares and a 4.5 DBPM, while Harden is at 3.4 and 1.4, respectively. That 1.4 DBPM mark actually represents Harden's best effort as a pro, so perhaps he hasn't quite been as much of a dog on D as he has been in the past. Still, he's not a better defender than Russell Westbrook is.

I will note that Kawhi Leonard also has a DBPM of 1.4 this season. Stats don't always tell the story, yeah. But it's a huge leap for me to think that Harden has played better D than Westbrook this season.


Westbrook leads the LEAGUE in uncontested shots give up (some centers like Jordan have even contested more 3's than him), and guys are scoring better on him in almost every category. He's sagging back on D to stay near the paint to chase boards, and it should be easy to see if you watch him play.

Here are the two dashboards for both players.

Harden:
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201935/defense-dash/

Westbrook:
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/defense-dash/

As far as win shares, the teams total defense has something to do with that metric. Going off memory, I recall prior years when Boozer had better win shares while playing for the D minded Bulls than Tyson Chandler had while playing for the Knicks. The he became a Laker and his W/S instantly dropped from 4 to 1.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
pio2u
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 26 Dec 2012
Posts: 25694

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject:

Westbrook made history again last night.
_________________
www.trendydeckpost.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
22
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 14786

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject:

James has had a hell of a year. But I think in the minds of media folks with a vote, it's gonna be Westbrook. Just too many raw numbers too ignore.

Like Kobe said I'd be satisfied with a co-mvp. But the players would hate it lol
_________________
Blake Griffin's ankles beware....Randle is coming
The youngins are YOUNG, let them learn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
CandyCanes
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 27682
Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Washington, DC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
audioaxes wrote:
I dont see how you dont give him the MVP.


Because this guy in Houston has carried a team projected to finish worse than OKC to the 3rd best record in basketball, while only avg 2 less rebounds but shooting better all across the board and playing better defense (not saying Harden's D is great but Westbrook is arguably the worst defensive PG in basketball this year).


Sorry, but that is just silly, and the stats back me up. Westbrook has 4.1 defensive win shares and a 4.5 DBPM, while Harden is at 3.4 and 1.4, respectively. That 1.4 DBPM mark actually represents Harden's best effort as a pro, so perhaps he hasn't quite been as much of a dog on D as he has been in the past. Still, he's not a better defender than Russell Westbrook is.

I will note that Kawhi Leonard also has a DBPM of 1.4 this season. Stats don't always tell the story, yeah. But it's a huge leap for me to think that Harden has played better D than Westbrook this season.


Westbrook leads the LEAGUE in uncontested shots give up (some centers like Jordan have even contested more 3's than him), and guys are scoring better on him in almost every category. He's sagging back on D to stay near the paint to chase boards, and it should be easy to see if you watch him play.

Here are the two dashboards for both players.

Harden:
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201935/defense-dash/

Westbrook:
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/defense-dash/

As far as win shares, the teams total defense has something to do with that metric. Going off memory, I recall prior years when Boozer had better win shares while playing for the D minded Bulls than Tyson Chandler had while playing for the Knicks. The he became a Laker and his W/S instantly dropped from 4 to 1.


Wasn't Westbrook considered an elite defender for most of his career?
_________________
Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZrbEjppnd4
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Reply with quote
Hammett
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 6279

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject:

If it doesn't go to Westbrook, it will be like Shawshank Redemption losing the Best Picture Oscar to Forrest Gump.
_________________
"Keep looking at me like that and I'll turn Suplex City into Mizney World."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
nevitt_smrek
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 2494

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject:

When is the MVP announced and handed out? Second round of the playoffs? Westbrook to be the next Dirk.
_________________
Smrek 2, Nevitt 1, Barkley 0
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lakersken80
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 27353

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Had Westbrook at the beginning of the year based on him being the sole superstar on his team and trying to make up for the loss of Durant. As far as individual performances goes, Westbrook wins out, but his team will probably be eliminated earlier in the playoffs than the Rockets, who are playing much better as a team this year because of their success in incorporating MDA's offensive system with D12 gone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Telleris
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 28 May 2013
Posts: 2268

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject:

nevitt_smrek wrote:
When is the MVP announced and handed out? Second round of the playoffs? Westbrook to be the next Dirk.


after the season ends this year
_________________
Entertainment comes before Sport in ESPN
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
activeverb
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 24791

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:42 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Had Westbrook at the beginning of the year based on him being the sole superstar on his team and trying to make up for the loss of Durant. As far as individual performances goes, Westbrook wins out, but his team will probably be eliminated earlier in the playoffs than the Rockets, who are playing much better as a team this year because of their success in incorporating MDA's offensive system with D12 gone.


They vote for the MVP before the playoffs begin, so playoff success isn't a factor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ryan_c
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 1193

PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:56 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
So Westbrook has clinched a 30/10 season already, through 78 games.

* He needs 6 total assists in the final 4 games to clinch a triple-double season average
* He needs 1 more triple-double game in the final 4 games to own the single-season record for himself
* He is on pace to become the 10th man in NBA history to have a 30+ PER season


He has also scored 241 points in the clutch this season (last 5 mins of games with a margin of 5 points or less) which is the most since LeBron in 07/08 had 270ish. I think he also has the most assists in the clutch too.

OKC are also +80 in the clutch when Westbrook is on the floor.


What a season for Westbrook.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jodeke
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 40621
Location: In a world where admitting not knowing something is considered intelligent.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
1. LeBron
2. Leonard
3. Harden
4. Westbrook


+1 James is doing more for his team and the league than Westbrook or Harden.

Leonard is not given the credit he deserves. He's the most underappreciated player since Timmy Duncan. The Spurs are like that. They fly under the radar.

What criterion do you use? Stats don't a MVP make. Value to the team and league are more important to me.
_________________
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

Your prayers are always answered. Sometimes the answer is NO.


Last edited by jodeke on Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Mike@LG
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 55894
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:55 am    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
i know Westbrook is shameless stat pads but its a HUGE feat nonetheless to avg 32/10/10 in today's NBA and carried his team to a NBA playoff birth. I dont see how you dont give him the MVP. Its easy for the act of averaging a triple double to kinda lose its shock value after you heard about it nonstop for months now but if you put it back in perspective its something truly historical and something I put up there with Chamberlain's 100pt game as something I thought it was nearly impossible for someone to do again in how NBA games are played now


Wouldn't surprise me if he didn't get it though. Kobe got robbed the same way.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
Top 3 Pick: Fultz, Ball, Tatum
LAL ended w 3 of 4 guys of my '17 Draft list.

My summer league spirit player is Brady Heslip.

https://hoop-math.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
eureca
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 12618

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject:

I think I would give it to Westbrook and the feeling I get is he is going to win it, but I do feel bad for Harden. He has had a amazing season. This will be his second chance at winning MVP and possibly coming up short again. Kawhi and Lebron also going to get the short end of the stick. They can easily be MVP a different year.

I think for a while now people have started dismissing Lebron for this award. Yes Lebron is mentioned this year as a candidate but I don't think a lot of voters are seriously considering voting for him. I guess it is looked at like his team has underachieved. Lebron with 2 all-stars and good talent around them and they are barely hanging on to the 1st seed while the 3 best records in the NBA are in the West.

It is amazing to think that Kawhi could have a finals MVP, defensive player of the year and a league MVP at 25 years old. Crazy to see his development from the 15th pick traded on draft day.

I know Russ has some talent on his team but when I watch OKC games I picture OKC as one of the worse teams in the NBA if Westbrook wasn't on the team. And really they don't have great shooters around him. I think Russ would have a field day on that Rockets team in the D'antoni system. Statistically when Russ is on the bench his team takes the biggest hit compared to all the other MVP candidates when they are on the bench.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 118047
Location: The Gold Coast

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject:

Lebron. I would never vote for a player whose team wasn't top 4. How can you be valuable to the league if you can't get HCA?
_________________
#lakerclownshow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
frenchbullcho
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 5074

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject:

42nd triple double and a game winning 3 buzzer beater for Westbrook.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
USCandLakers
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 19356

PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject:

frenchbullcho wrote:
42nd triple double and a game winning 3 buzzer beater for Westbrook.


Another 50 point triple double too.

If he doesn't win the MVP it'll be a crime against humanity.
_________________
LG Fantasy Football Cash League - Win Money! Only 1 Spot Left!
http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=182277
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2010 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB