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MDMO49
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Guys.
Did you not hear the Lakers when they said he was very raw and that he had no idea of how an "above the rim" game was supposed to be played ...
The fact that he's getting offensive boards with ease while still not completely sound at positioning under the basket - tells you that he can be a very good rebounder.
I don't think Bynum would ever be a Shaq or Amare. Those guys have too much power and can dunk the ball like no other bigman. But is he not worth the investment just because he's not a power dunker/finsher?
That kind of thinking is why many overlook Tim Duncan ....
BUT, He has the ability to be a combination of a low post finnesse scorer (Like a Mihm) and some power moves (like an Eddy Curry). If he can even become a combo of Mihm and Curry - he would be a top 5 Center in the NBA and an impact player.
That's just the way it is with big's/C's in the NBA |
Great post. I agree with most of what you said, but I'd leave Tim Duncan out of the picture. Mr. Fundamentals and Bynum are like polar opposites right now. One went to college for four years to learn the game and perfect his technique and was NBA ready from the getgo, the other did the EXACT opposite. |
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dirka dirka
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| MDMO49 wrote: | | Zhengi wrote: | | ^^ Just a better Chris Mihm? No way, Bynum's potential is higher than that. The kid is definitely raw right now, but he's showing that he has a good learning curve and desire to hone his skills. Once he gets more experienced, we can safely say that he'd be a whole lot better than Mihm. |
Mihm was taken 7th overall, Bynum 10th. Not to say that draft position determines how good you are, but great players play that way immediately. Bynum has shown NOTHING to warrant that he'll be far superior to Chris Mihm. He has a bigger overall body but he's less athletic than Mihm, and Bynum plays extremely slow. He's NOT going to develop speed in the next 2-3 years, that's how he plays. Footwork, fundamentals, and strength will improve his overall game.
There's NO way Bynum will be anywhere NEAR Hakeem Olajuwon. Or Ewing, or DRob... |
This has got to be the worst post I've ever read, you must not have watched many high school rookies play in the NBA, they all pretty much suck...and before you spout off about Amare, he was 20 years old his first year in the NBA...I guess you don't remember being 18, but its QUITE clear Bynum is not fully physically mature. Some people develop later than others.
To suggest that players never improve, or become stars/superstars past their first year in the NBA is ludicrous...I'm sure guys like Kobe, Jermaine Oneal, Ben Wallace, Chauncy Billups, Antony Mason, Michael Redd, and many many more would take offense at the idea that you can't improve your game to all star level after starting out their careers slowly.
AB is the youngest NBA player ever and is barely starting to get minutes, dude scored 16 points in one quarter against an NBA team, and yet the expert talent evaluator "MDMO49" says he will never be a star.
:roll:
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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^
Well said, Mike.
I agree with you on that. I don't think Bynum has the fundamentals yet.
But what do you think of his low post back to the basket game? Also I thought he did a better job on Gasol than Kwame did. Bynum can move his feet - and use that length to bother Gasol as opposed to Kwame who just tried to push him away with power.
He will need to improve significantly on footwork in regards to attaing a post base, boxing his man out and also learn how to play once he has the ball 2' from the basket in a face up position. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Great post. I agree with most of what you said, but I'd leave Tim Duncan out of the picture. Mr. Fundamentals and Bynum are like polar opposites right now. One went to college for four years to learn the game and perfect his technique and was NBA ready from the getgo, the other did the EXACT opposite. |
You missed my point on Tim.
Many think Shaq is better than Tim or was better than Tim. Some also think that right now, Amare is better than Tim.
But I disagree. I think Duncan is the best bigman in the NBA.
Though just because unlike Amare or Prime Shaq - he isn't a dominating low post player - fans overlook him.
While Bynum is nowhere near the fundamentally sound player that Tim or even Kareem was - I think the fact that he's working with a guy like KAJ is going to force him to learn the basics and become funtamentally sound. |
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dirka dirka
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| MDMO49 wrote: | 10 rebounds a game easy? Do you know that only 7 guys in the league are averaging that this year?
Oh, and one of them is in their 2nd year and OUT OF HIGHSCHOOL. Dwight Howard is leading the league in rebounding, and last year was very impressive on the boards as a rookie... and how old was he exactly? 25?
angel: While he might be ahead of players 22-23, he's still behind the other first round high school centers drafted in the last couple of years (Amare Stoudamire & Dwight Howard).
Lastly, the NBA likes to reward the best rookies of this class with a game. So let's give the props and praise that actually deserve it. The ones doing it on the court. Not the ones riding the pine.
Andrew Bogut
Luther Head
Channing Frye
Danny Granger
Sarunas Jaskiviecius
Chris Paul
Nate Robinson
Charlie Villaneuva
Deron Williams
(props to NY for finding two good players in the draft, and we all know Larry Brown loves playing rookies, cough - Darko) |
lmao, now you you're comparing AB to Howard who was a year older than AB coming into the NBA and also got to play for a terrible team while averaging over 30 minutes per contest. Its quite obvious AB has a talent for rebounding the ball in his limited minutes (in fact if someone can dig up his rebounding per minute numbers compared to howard in his rookie year I'd wager AB is right on track).
Give AB 30 plus minutes a game and lets just see how many rebounds he'll get before we get all nostradumb on him.
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rwongega
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | There is no doubt that Bynum can be better than Hakeem, Ewing, or at the least a Mutombo. With Kareem coaching him in offensive and defensive aspects, I think he can reach those expectations. He certainly was faster than Shaq. |
There we go again with the comparisons of the greatest centers in the NBA of All Time...
Projecting Bynum to be a 16ppg 11rpg 2bpg player isn't underhype, it's a realistic goal that he can reach. If he surpasses that, then all for the better, but really, I don't understand all the hype. I get he has great physical tools, very good hoop IQ and a great learning curve, but where's the foundation of skills to warrant the comparisons against the elite?
I see a guy who could be a very good 2-way player. He'll board. He'll swat and rotate on defense. He'll be a solid post presence. Can you count on him taking 20 shots a game? Does he have enough diversity to create high percentage shots for those 20 shots a game?
I'd be FAR more convinced when he has the basics down and keeps up the progress of working without the ball... offensive rebounds, boxing out, denying position, team rotation on defense, individual defense.
Once he has that, the franchise potential may be realized. |
I think under more coaching by Kareem, he can compare with those elites. He is quite young so there's still the potential and time to learn skills. He's not there or anywhere close but at least he has more potential to do so then say Mihm or DeSagana Diop. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
Well said, Mike.
I agree with you on that. I don't think Bynum has the fundamentals yet.
But what do you think of his low post back to the basket game? Also I thought he did a better job on Gasol than Kwame did. Bynum can move his feet - and use that length to bother Gasol as opposed to Kwame who just tried to push him away with power.
He will need to improve significantly on footwork in regards to attaing a post base, boxing his man out and also learn how to play once he has the ball 2' from the basket in a face up position. |
The back to the basket game is clearly the thing he's worked on the most. I'm glad for the improvement, but the same fundamental errors are there as already said:
1. Post base for position.
2. Active feet to get better position.
3. Boxing out.
4. Face up game.
5. Setting up the defender.
Basics.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | ^
Well said, Mike.
I agree with you on that. I don't think Bynum has the fundamentals yet.
But what do you think of his low post back to the basket game? Also I thought he did a better job on Gasol than Kwame did. Bynum can move his feet - and use that length to bother Gasol as opposed to Kwame who just tried to push him away with power.
He will need to improve significantly on footwork in regards to attaing a post base, boxing his man out and also learn how to play once he has the ball 2' from the basket in a face up position. |
The back to the basket game is clearly the thing he's worked on the most. I'm glad for the improvement, but the same fundamental errors are there as already said:
1. Post base for position.
2. Active feet to get better position.
3. Boxing out.
4. Face up game.
5. Setting up the defender.
Basics. |
Can't argue this.
He has a very good ability to create shots in the post considering his age and how rare it is to have a talented back to the basket 18 year old BUT
unless he doesn't master your list of 5 - he can not become a consistent low post player.
What about the man defense?
I thought his defense against JO and Gasol - was quite interesting. Those are guys that are really quick - yet Bynum didn't allow them to score on him easily (as opposed to say Kwame or Mihm who get walked all over by quicker bigs) |
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dirka dirka
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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btw, these numbers come straight from NBA.com on AB -
Ranks #5 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.6) Ranks #11 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(3.11)
hmm, 5th in offensive rebounds per 48 minutes...yeah, he'll never be a good rebounder. (I guess I may have to remind you that offensive boards are more difficult to get than defensive rebounds eh?)
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think under more coaching by Kareem, he can compare with those elites. |
And what physical advantage does he have over the elite centers of all time relative to skill level?
Remember, the elite centers of the league had size, strength, wingspan, elite athleticism... any variation of it.
Olajuwon was the most dominant "small" center I've ever seen. Best footwork. Best athleticism. Underated.
Bynum doesn't have either.
Bynum comes to Shaq in terms of size and length. Shaq's athleticism as a rookie? He outran guards and was easily the most explosive center in the game.
Doesn't have that.
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angel
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Bynum has 17 rebounds in his last 47 minutes of play. It's not hard to imagine him pulling down 10 rebounds per game.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| dirka dirka wrote: | btw, these numbers come straight from NBA.com on AB -
Ranks #5 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.6) Ranks #11 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(3.11)
hmm, 5th in offensive rebounds per 48 minutes...yeah, he'll never be a good rebounder. (I guess I may have to remind you that offensive boards are more difficult to get than defensive rebounds eh?) |
Well let's put it this way.
Stanislav Medvedenko used to be #1 in the NBA in Offensive rebounds per 48 minutes.
What does that mean?
The per-48 minute statistic doesn't account for energy level... fouls.... conditioning... opponent... when the minutes are limited.
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dirka dirka
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | I think under more coaching by Kareem, he can compare with those elites. |
And what physical advantage does he have over the elite centers of all time relative to skill level?
Remember, the elite centers of the league had size, strength, wingspan, elite athleticism... any variation of it.
Olajuwon was the most dominant "small" center I've ever seen. Best footwork. Best athleticism. Underated.
Bynum doesn't have either.
Bynum comes to Shaq in terms of size and length. Shaq's athleticism as a rookie? He outran guards and was easily the most explosive center in the game.
Doesn't have that. |
lol, shaq played 3 years in college. I think we really need to stop comparing players to AB at this point, how can you? He's the youngest NBA player ever and is not logging serious minutes...if he hasn't shown you flashes of greatness (16 points in one quarter, that great post move and dunk on shaq) then I don't know if he could ever impress you this year.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| angel wrote: | | Bynum has 17 rebounds in his last 47 minutes of play. It's not hard to imagine him pulling down 10 rebounds per game. |
Yes.
That's the first thing I said when I saw him.
He may never be a dominant scorer or a 18+ scorer in the NBA - But I do think if he worked hard he could become a 10 rebound/2 blocks guy. |
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dirka dirka
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | dirka dirka wrote: | btw, these numbers come straight from NBA.com on AB -
Ranks #5 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.6) Ranks #11 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(3.11)
hmm, 5th in offensive rebounds per 48 minutes...yeah, he'll never be a good rebounder. (I guess I may have to remind you that offensive boards are more difficult to get than defensive rebounds eh?) |
Well let's put it this way.
Stanislav Medvedenko used to be #1 in the NBA in Offensive rebounds per 48 minutes.
What does that mean?
The per-48 minute statistic doesn't account for energy level... fouls.... conditioning... opponent... when the minutes are limited. |
While I can agree with that (as his minutes are severly limited) you can't possibly be saying that AB hasn't shown an afinity for rebounding and blocking shots. Sometimes his offensive game looks just that, offensive, he's quite obviously still not fully grown or mature. This will definetly be a time issue, but if he continues to work as hard as his coaches says he does, I'm quite sure (barring injury) AB will be good sooner rather than later.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Shaq was more athletic out of HS than Bynum is right now.
I'm not even making comparisons to the elite. Other fans are and I find it ... inappropriate.
As for flashes of greatness... even Kwame Brown has done that.
The key is to make the flashes consistent. Kwame Brown goes 7 of 7 vs the Dallas and 6 of 6 last night... See anyone calling him the next Chris Webber? Shawn Kemp? Why not?
Right...
This isn't about being impressed. I have been. I also see two sides of the same coin. You know, where on one end, Bynum pivots on Shaq and dunks on him... as well as fails to box out at the under end, gets shoved under the basket and got posterized by Shaq on an offensive tip in.
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MDMO49
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| dirka dirka wrote: |
This has got to be the worst post I've ever read, you must not have watched many high school rookies play in the NBA, they all pretty much suck...and before you spout off about Amare, he was 20 years old his first year in the NBA...I guess you don't remember being 18, but its QUITE clear Bynum is not fully physically mature. Some people develop later than others.
To suggest that players never improve, or become stars/superstars past their first year in the NBA is ludicrous...I'm sure guys like Kobe, Jermaine Oneal, Ben Wallace, Chauncy Billups, Antony Mason, Michael Redd, and many many more would take offense at the idea that you can't improve your game to all star level after starting out their careers slowly.
AB is the youngest NBA player ever and is barely starting to get minutes, dude scored 16 points in one quarter against an NBA team, and yet the expert talent evaluator "MDMO49" says he will never be a star.
:roll: |
It appears that you don't watch much basketball after reading your post. First, from KG, to Kobe, from Tmac, to Korleone Young, I've seen plenty of high schoolers play in the NBA. And no, they don't suck. But they play better than Bynum has done as a rookie. Why don't you actually do some research first and compare Bynum's ROOKIE season with all the high schooler stars first season including Lebron James. You think in one season Bynum will go from not even being recognized to superstar/league recognized status? 18-20? Maybe you haven't been paying attention to that other #1 overall pick bust Kwame Brown... its been four years, and he still isn't all that good. Chandler & Curry aren't anything special to brag about either. Chandler is a solid rebounder however.
One thing that holds true with players with the potential to become superstars, is that they show that even as rookies. Some just do it naturally. You either can play in this league or you can't. Bynum isn't getting the minutes b/c he's not better than any of the Lakers out there. Plain & simple.
I know for a fact he's not going to be a superstar, he's too slow. He's the guy trailing the court back and forth. Thank god he's god better stamina than Yao Ming who is just awful at that aspect. So you keep waiting.
Maybe some day Sasha will be a star...
Michael Redd averaged 10 ppg as a rookie, is Bynum? Kobe was coming off the bench but clearly showed superstar promise/potential (if you watched him in 96-97). Anthony Mason? Hey Bynum might be everybit as good as Anthony Mason, maybe even Ben Wallace. But what Bynum is NOT is a 20-10 guy.
That's ok if you think Bynum is... You probably are on the same page as Mitch Kupchak & Jim Buss... you know the same guys that took Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, DG, Cook, Wafer, Kareem Rush...
It's becoming obvious to me, an "eye for talent" isn't common at all. If the Lakers had taken "JOE NOBODY" I'd still be having this argument with most of you. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | dirka dirka wrote: | btw, these numbers come straight from NBA.com on AB -
Ranks #5 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.6) Ranks #11 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(3.11)
hmm, 5th in offensive rebounds per 48 minutes...yeah, he'll never be a good rebounder. (I guess I may have to remind you that offensive boards are more difficult to get than defensive rebounds eh?) |
Well let's put it this way.
Stanislav Medvedenko used to be #1 in the NBA in Offensive rebounds per 48 minutes.
What does that mean?
The per-48 minute statistic doesn't account for energy level... fouls.... conditioning... opponent... when the minutes are limited. |
Conditioning is a factor.
Agreed. Not the same thing as to grab 5 boards in 10 minutes as 15 in 30. Getting those 10 extra boards is not easy.
So I agree that stat doesn't prove anything.
But considering his length and his knack/will to get the ball - I think he can average 10 boards.
Lamar Odom isn't an explosive jumper by any means. He also at times has some very bad fundamentals when rebounding. But he has that will and length to go there and grab those boards that most guys don't. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | you can't possibly be saying that AB hasn't shown an afinity for rebounding and blocking shots. |
I'll believe the affinity when he stops relying on length and actually boxes out consistently as well as defends well on man-defense and team-defense.
All of that has to do with the base. Denying position and gaining position.
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MDMO49
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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I just hope the Lakers resign him when he starts to show some promise, but I fear they might just overpay for his services...
Kwame getting 8 million? ridiculous.
Curry & Chandler also demanded star big man money for not producing anything near it. |
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dirka dirka
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| MDMO49 wrote: |
It appears that you don't watch much basketball after reading your post. First, from KG, to Kobe, from Tmac, to Korleone Young, I've seen plenty of high schoolers play in the NBA. And no, they don't suck. But they play better than Bynum has done as a rookie. Why don't you actually do some research first and compare Bynum's ROOKIE season with all the high schooler stars first season including Lebron James. You think in one season Bynum will go from not even being recognized to superstar/league recognized status? 18-20? Maybe you haven't been paying attention to that other #1 overall pick bust Kwame Brown... its been four years, and he still isn't all that good. Chandler & Curry aren't anything special to brag about either. Chandler is a solid rebounder however.
One thing that holds true with players with the potential to become superstars, is that they show that even as rookies. Some just do it naturally. You either can play in this league or you can't. Bynum isn't getting the minutes b/c he's not better than any of the Lakers out there. Plain & simple.
I know for a fact he's not going to be a superstar, he's too slow. He's the guy trailing the court back and forth. Thank god he's god better stamina than Yao Ming who is just awful at that aspect. So you keep waiting.
Maybe some day Sasha will be a star...
Michael Redd averaged 10 ppg as a rookie, is Bynum? Kobe was coming off the bench but clearly showed superstar promise/potential (if you watched him in 96-97). Anthony Mason? Hey Bynum might be everybit as good as Anthony Mason, maybe even Ben Wallace. But what Bynum is NOT is a 20-10 guy.
That's ok if you think Bynum is... You probably are on the same page as Mitch Kupchak & Jim Buss... you know the same guys that took Luke Walton, Sasha Vujacic, DG, Cook, Wafer, Kareem Rush...
It's becoming obvious to me, an "eye for talent" isn't common at all. If the Lakers had taken "JOE NOBODY" I'd still be having this argument with most of you. |
wait, so you're saying kobe was great his first year?? hahahahahha
and redd averaged 2.2 ppg his rookie year.
Bynum isn't getting minutes because Phil doesnt like to play rookies, its quite clear to me he's already a better player than Kwame, he's just not physically mature yet.
You put Bynum in college at Conn and give him one or two years I would bet the farm he'd be a #1 pick in the NBA and YES, he would be showing greatness in his first NBA year.
I really can't believe I have to argue that a guy who has just turned 18 is not ready to play in the NBA...(oh ok, there have been a few exceptions ala Lebron - though he as well was older than Bynum when he started his career)
I'd also like to note that Bynum barely played BB in high school, had to overcome weight issues and a knee injury...its not like he's had anywhere NEAR the experience that all these other guys you are talking about have had at his age.
Thats ok bro, continue your faulty line of thinking, it will be all the more sweet to bring this post back up in 2 years when you are looking like a fool.
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dirka dirka
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MDMO49 wrote: | I just hope the Lakers resign him when he starts to show some promise, but I fear they might just overpay for his services...
Kwame getting 8 million? ridiculous.
Curry & Chandler also demanded star big man money for not producing anything near it. |
hold the phone, did you just suggest that AB hasn't show some promise already??  
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MDMO49
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Shaq was more athletic out of HS than Bynum is right now.
I'm not even making comparisons to the elite. Other fans are and I find it ... inappropriate.
As for flashes of greatness... even Kwame Brown has done that.
The key is to make the flashes consistent. Kwame Brown goes 7 of 7 vs the Dallas and 6 of 6 last night... See anyone calling him the next Chris Webber? Shawn Kemp? Why not?
Right...
This isn't about being impressed. I have been. I also see two sides of the same coin. You know, where on one end, Bynum pivots on Shaq and dunks on him... as well as fails to box out at the under end, gets shoved under the basket and got posterized by Shaq on an offensive tip in. |
Very good post. I think people think Bynum's speed is on par w/ Shaq's and that is NOT the case. Shaq was incredibly fast coming out, its what separated him from Oliver Miller's of the world. Bynum isn't as big as Shaq but he's definitely not as fast, so forget the Olajuwon moves, or the quick spin moves (but he did do it impressively against the older, fatter shaq).
I wouldn't classify last night's game as impressive for Bynum and he's still a work in progress. But to say he's going to be a great star is just inaccurate. Solid NBA center, 12-15 ppg and 7-9 rebs is a realistic goal (keep in mind that's all we were asking for from Kwame, and Chris Mihm is barely getting those kinds of numbers) |
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MDMO49
Starting Rotation
Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dirka dirka wrote: | | MDMO49 wrote: | I just hope the Lakers resign him when he starts to show some promise, but I fear they might just overpay for his services...
Kwame getting 8 million? ridiculous.
Curry & Chandler also demanded star big man money for not producing anything near it. |
hold the phone, did you just suggest that AB hasn't show some promise already?? |
Is he even getting regular NBA minutes?
I guess by your logic Von Wafer is showing promise...
Note to self: Don't read posts from Dirka Dirka |
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wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58349
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| MDMO49 wrote: | I just hope the Lakers resign him when he starts to show some promise, but I fear they might just overpay for his services...
Kwame getting 8 million? ridiculous.
Curry & Chandler also demanded star big man money for not producing anything near it. |
That will be the key IMO
Will Bynum be a money guy? Meaning he plays first and foremost for the money.
The players - especially big's - that improve over their NBA careers don't play just for money.
These days though - bigmen know their value is really high. They have glimpses of a solid season and they are signed to a 50+ million dollar contract.
Steven Hunter got 30 million. You know Diop is going to get money next summer after his solid defensive play in Dallas.
IMO that really limits their growth and hunger. |
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