Hollinger's take on Bynum...
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angel
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject:

The kid had his first good teachers. He's just beginning to learn, but he seems to be a quick study. There is no doubt he is making rapid progress. He has a burning desire to be part of the long line of Lakers superstar centers. He plays hard. His body is changing for the better. I don't know how good he will be, but he should become one of the top centers in the NBA.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject:

MDMO49 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Guys.

Did you not hear the Lakers when they said he was very raw and that he had no idea of how an "above the rim" game was supposed to be played ...

The fact that he's getting offensive boards with ease while still not completely sound at positioning under the basket - tells you that he can be a very good rebounder.

I don't think Bynum would ever be a Shaq or Amare. Those guys have too much power and can dunk the ball like no other bigman. But is he not worth the investment just because he's not a power dunker/finsher?

That kind of thinking is why many overlook Tim Duncan ....

BUT, He has the ability to be a combination of a low post finnesse scorer (Like a Mihm) and some power moves (like an Eddy Curry). If he can even become a combo of Mihm and Curry - he would be a top 5 Center in the NBA and an impact player.

That's just the way it is with big's/C's in the NBA



Great post. I agree with most of what you said, but I'd leave Tim Duncan out of the picture. Mr. Fundamentals and Bynum are like polar opposites right now. One went to college for four years to learn the game and perfect his technique and was NBA ready from the getgo, the other did the EXACT opposite.


Oh, and one has one of the greatest and most fundamentally sound centers of all time coaching him personally. How people cannot see this gives him a clear advantage. Playing the NBA game and being coached by Jabbar since he was 18. In 4 years the kid's gonna be special, book it.


Last edited by LakerJosh on Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Hollinger's take on Bynum...

LkrsOvrMia wrote:
Andrew Bynum, Los Angeles Lakers: Raw teenage center intrigues with tools but has long, long way to go.


Bynum = Superstar : Long, long way to go
Bynum = all-star : Long way to go
Bynum = starting center: Not that far to go, a couple years
Bynum = good role player: very close
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Shaq was more athletic out of HS than Bynum is right now.

I'm not even making comparisons to the elite. Other fans are and I find it ... inappropriate.

As for flashes of greatness... even Kwame Brown has done that.

The key is to make the flashes consistent. Kwame Brown goes 7 of 7 vs the Dallas and 6 of 6 last night... See anyone calling him the next Chris Webber? Shawn Kemp? Why not?

Right...

This isn't about being impressed. I have been. I also see two sides of the same coin. You know, where on one end, Bynum pivots on Shaq and dunks on him... as well as fails to box out at the under end, gets shoved under the basket and got posterized by Shaq on an offensive tip in.


He's a rookie for god's sake, and that's fat ass shaq. How about Dwight Howard getting one of the worst posterizations of all time by Kobe?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject:

ducasse wrote:
Zhengi wrote:

There's NO way Bynum will be anywhere NEAR Hakeem Olajuwon. Or Ewing, or DRob...


There's no way you can make that claim when he is only 18 years old. He is not an athletic freak but neither is Duncan and Duncan will go down as better than Ewing and Drob and probably Hakeem as well. Duncan has already accomplished more than Hakeem.


Really? Why can't someone make that claim?

If Bynum had Oden's credentials, then yeah, I'd make those comparisons.

Yeesh, Bynum can't even play defense like Oden.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
ducasse wrote:
Zhengi wrote:

There's NO way Bynum will be anywhere NEAR Hakeem Olajuwon. Or Ewing, or DRob...


There's no way you can make that claim when he is only 18 years old. He is not an athletic freak but neither is Duncan and Duncan will go down as better than Ewing and Drob and probably Hakeem as well. Duncan has already accomplished more than Hakeem.


Really? Why can't someone make that claim?


Well, someone can certainly make the claim but they end up looking foolish doing so. Especially someone on an internet message board. You're not exactly Jerry West, and even someone with his experience and skill wouldn't make such wild claims


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject:

You people can continue to be "realitistic" so that you don't get your heart broken when Bynum doens't become great. But I see something in the kid that show's me he will be great, I don't need to worry about it or set myself up so I'm not dissapointed.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject:

I disagree.

Why does someone who doesn't even play 30 minutes look like a franchise player to someone's eyes?

Fans are banking on how Bynum is so young, but the special young players of the league, Bryant, McGrady, KG, LeBron, etc., all came out of high school with a certain amount of skill level.

Even Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler had more skill out of HS than Bynum.

All Bynum has shown is a fast learning curve, but what is it about him that spells franchise?

Because whether a player is 17-19 out of HS, the most special players come out with skill levels and basics. Eddy Curry understood how to seal a man and receive a post entry pass. Bynum is still working on that. KG had a very basic set of triple threat skills. Bynum is still working on that. Shaq out of HS knew how to seal, box-out, and really intimidate defensively his frosh/soph years at LSU. Bynum is still learning that.

Making unrealistic expectations on a player off of little proof is foolish.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject:

MDMO49 wrote:

Let's just say he's not going to be anywhere near the dominant 7 footer Amare Stoudamire is,


Huh?

Amare is 6'10" in shoes. Bynum is a legit 7' and still growing. Amare is a giant shooting guard without the jumper. Bynum is a true center.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Hollinger's take on Bynum...

ducasse wrote:
LkrsOvrMia wrote:
Andrew Bynum, Los Angeles Lakers: Raw teenage center intrigues with tools but has long, long way to go.


Bynum = Superstar : Long, long way to go
Bynum = all-star : Long way to go
Bynum = starting center: Not that far to go, a couple years
Bynum = good role player: very close


The the most fair obvservation I've seen yet. Bynum is very close to already being a legit backup center right now.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:24 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
You're not exactly Jerry West, and even someone with his experience and skill wouldn't make such wild claims


Funny, because if he was projected to do so well, he would've been top 3.

There's a reason why he slipped down far in the draft.

I don't have to be Jerry West either.

The rest of the GMs of the NBA said enough in the draft.

Tell me, how much pro basketball experience does RC Buford have?

You're not exactly Jerry West either. I highly doubt you've seen Bynum as much as I have in terms of research.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:33 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
The rest of the GMs of the NBA said enough in the draft

A few things here though.

1- Bynum refused to work out for teams higher than LAL once he knew they were going to pick him. He cancelled workouts with a few teams prior to the draft. 2 of those teams were picking higher than LA

2- Kobe Bryant and Amare Stoudamire were passed by many GM's. Jermaine O'Neal wasn't even in the lottery.

So just because you go later in the draft from the Top 2-3 doesn't mean you have no chance of being a franchise player.

Guys like Jermaine O'Neal and Amare Stoudamire proved just that.

While Amare was NBA ready - JO wasn't. He was quite raw coming out of high school and I remember watching him play a few stints as rookie. Not too impressive at all.

Overall, I agree with you Mike. Some people here have overstated expectations from Bynum. But according to an expert - Jim Calhoun - who has molded many NBA pro's, Bynum would be the top 2 pick in 2-3 years. Meaning what? Once he learned the fundamentals of the game from UConn, he could be a guy that can be considered a potential franchise player.

In all likelihood it won't happen. Franchise players in the size of Andrew Bynum are rare. The last franchise player his size or bigger was Shaq.

But to absolutely dismiss his upside - I disagree with that.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:39 pm    Post subject:

There isn't all that much difference in the age of Oden and Bynum. They are less than three months apart. Yet, that difference has caused Oden to be stuck at H.S. for a year and in college for another year. Bynum was drafted in 2005. Oden will be out in 2007. Bynum may be a later bloomer, because of his coaching. Bynum is described as very strong and surprisingly athletic. We see Bynum playing NBA centers. The higher level of competition would tend to make a young center look worse. Oden hasn't been tested at the NBA level yet. He's described as a David Robinson type. Bynum is described as more of a Shaq type body. It's too early to say who will be better in the end. I recall seeing Chris Taft projected as a top pick as a freshman, but his projections didn't hold. Something was missing. It will be interesting to see how Bynum and Oden develop.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:44 pm    Post subject:

1. It's not like teams haven't drafted players they have worked out before.

2. Kobe Bryant was the 1st guard out of HS. Amare moved around at least 5 different high schools. Character issues. Never talent issues.

3. Jim Calhoun is entitled to his opinion. I have my own. Every franchise player in the league that I've seen has had a basic set of skills out of HS. Shaq out of HS. Duncan out of HS. Kareem out of HS.

4. Jermaine O'Neal was just buried behind Brian Grant, Arvydas Sabonis, and Rasheed Wallace. Believe me, the practice time helped him.

I've yet to see a player so raw, with so little experience during HS, actually become a franchise player unless they were elite athletes. See Hakeem Olajuwon.

This isn't about dismissing upside, it is about making realistic expectations of what upside/potential he can acheive.

Because really, if Bynum was that great and the Laker franchise had full confidence in him being a franchise player, then why on earth would the Lakers try and trade for Channing Frye? Possible other PF/Cs when the Lakers have Kwame/Mihm as it is?

It tells me that even they know it's going take years before he can even play a consistent 30+ minutes a game, let alone be a franchise player. Even Kupchak admitted he was gambling and wasn't fully confident about how Bynum would turn out.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject:

angel wrote:


<snipped>

Bynum is described as very strong and surprisingly athletic.


Oh yeah.

We saw that "surprising athleticism" last night when Shane Battier (a 6'9" SF with average athletic ability) rejected Bynum.

I find it interesting how there could be a 10-page thread on how Bynum almost dunked on Tim Duncan, but not a single peep when this "freak of nature" is unable to convert over SF's.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject:

Bynum isn't a dunker.

But it seems that's all you value, And 1.

Kareem wasn't a dunker either. Duncan isn't much of a dunker.

To this day - Duncan gets rejected pretty bad at times.

Jarred Jeffries - flat out frustrated and absolutely stopped him in one game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251112027

Duncan 3-18. That's the 3 time MVP ....

Even the stats show it

Considering Duncan in my book and most experts is the best bigman in the game - Here is a SF like Jeffries giving him fits.

So I guess we all have different opinions. Some will choose to over do it on Bynum's upside. Some will understate it. I don't think he has a limit. I do think it's unlikely he becomes a FP since those are very rare and require a lot of developpment.

BUT I refuse to put a limit on him. Even if I don't expect him to more than "good"
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject:

But seriously guys.

Andrew Bynum is not likely to be a superstar or a franchise player.
To be one, one needs either supreme athletic ability or supreme skills with above average athleticism.

Bynum doesn't strike me as the type of player who can develop great basketball skills; he doesn't seem fluid or graceful with his movements.

This is not to say that he won't become a good player or even an all-star, but a franchise player? I'd bet that he doesn't become one.

Of course, that is okay still, since it's not like we wasted a number one draft pick on Andrew; at 10th pick, getting a possible double double bigman is satisfactory, to say the least.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:15 pm    Post subject:

shnjb wrote:
But seriously guys.

Andrew Bynum is not likely to be a superstar or a franchise player.
To be one, one needs either supreme athletic ability or supreme skills with above average athleticism.

Bynum doesn't strike me as the type of player who can develop great basketball skills; he doesn't seem fluid or graceful with his movements.

This is not to say that he won't become a good player or even an all-star, but a franchise player? I'd bet that he doesn't become one.

Of course, that is okay still, since it's not like we wasted a number one draft pick on Andrew; at 10th pick, getting a possible double double bigman is satisfactory, to say the least.

I'm not arguing against that he will become one.

I am arguing against the notion he has no chance to become one.

Putting a limit on him is just as wrong as putting a big expecation on him.

Also I disagree that he doesn't have the skills needed. What Skills are you talking about? Because if you mean a low post back to the basket game - he has that base and is still developping. If you mean face up 12' jumper like Duncan has - well that can definitely be worked on. But if a player like Bynum just works on his low post game - he will not need much else. In this league, noone has an answer for a low post scorer that has great skill. The problem is - apart from a handful of bigs none of them possess that. But are you saying that all the big's woith elite skill level showed it at 17-18? I don't agree with that.

Nothing can stop a player like Bynum from getting better if he works hard enough.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
shnjb wrote:
But seriously guys.

Andrew Bynum is not likely to be a superstar or a franchise player.
To be one, one needs either supreme athletic ability or supreme skills with above average athleticism.

Bynum doesn't strike me as the type of player who can develop great basketball skills; he doesn't seem fluid or graceful with his movements.

This is not to say that he won't become a good player or even an all-star, but a franchise player? I'd bet that he doesn't become one.

Of course, that is okay still, since it's not like we wasted a number one draft pick on Andrew; at 10th pick, getting a possible double double bigman is satisfactory, to say the least.

I'm not arguing that he will become one.

I am arguing that he has no chance to become one.

Putting a limit on him is just as wrong as putting a big expecation on him.

Also I disagree that he doesn't have the skills needed. What Skills are you talking about? Because if you mean a low post back to the basket game - he has that and is still developping. If you mean face up 12' jumper like Duncan has - well that can definitely be worked on.

Nothing can stop a player like Bynum from getting better if he works hard enough.


Agree 100%

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are more spot on than others.

But to overhype Andrew as the second coming? Homer.

But to say Andrew can't be a decent starter in the NBA, and average AT LEAST 10 and 8 (I think somewhat more, but whateer)... well, you're entitled to that opinion, but I think it's being overly on the pessimistic side of realism.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject:

LakerJosh wrote:
MDMO49 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Guys.

Did you not hear the Lakers when they said he was very raw and that he had no idea of how an "above the rim" game was supposed to be played ...

The fact that he's getting offensive boards with ease while still not completely sound at positioning under the basket - tells you that he can be a very good rebounder.

I don't think Bynum would ever be a Shaq or Amare. Those guys have too much power and can dunk the ball like no other bigman. But is he not worth the investment just because he's not a power dunker/finsher?

That kind of thinking is why many overlook Tim Duncan ....

BUT, He has the ability to be a combination of a low post finnesse scorer (Like a Mihm) and some power moves (like an Eddy Curry). If he can even become a combo of Mihm and Curry - he would be a top 5 Center in the NBA and an impact player.

That's just the way it is with big's/C's in the NBA



Great post. I agree with most of what you said, but I'd leave Tim Duncan out of the picture. Mr. Fundamentals and Bynum are like polar opposites right now. One went to college for four years to learn the game and perfect his technique and was NBA ready from the getgo, the other did the EXACT opposite.


Oh, and one has one of the greatest and most fundamentally sound centers of all time coaching him personally. How people cannot see this gives him the clear advantage. Playing the NBA game and being coaching by Jabbar since he was 18. In 4 years the kid's gonna be special, book it.



For the love of god please take off the Laker goggles. Kareem worked with Kandi man, what a great center he turned out to be. Bynum will be a solid NBA center, I think he'll be better than Mihm, but he's not going to be a perennial allstar.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject:

ducasse wrote:
MDMO49 wrote:

Bynum isn't a bust, but he isn't a superstar either. Can he end up being either? Sure. But not likely, either way.




You are assessing that Bynum isn't a bust or a superstar? He's 18 years old! Think about how ridiculous that statement is. It's absolutely impossible to make that assessment at 18 years old.




I'm just better at assessing talent than you are. Don't worry its nothign bad.

I knew Rush couldn't play from the first SPL, and I was right. I knew Kobe would be special as a rookie, and I was right. I knew Sasha is bust and a half, and I'm right.

I haven't seen enough of Wafer but I have trashed him considerably on other boards, and so far I'm looking pretty right.

Bynum will NOT average 20-10...bank it. Remember it, and when i'm right, I'll expect your excuses... If teams saw him as a 20-10 guy he would've been taken #1 no question. Like Dwight Howard was...

How many players in the league are averaging 20-10? Since there are only 7 guys averaging 10 rebs/game its a very small and elite group of players. If Bynum works hard he might get to 15-10, just might.

My goals for him is for 12-15 and 7-9... He needs to bulk up, and build up his stamina, and he has to learn the game... three things severely lacking in his game, currently.

That's why Phil isn't playing him, despite pressure from Mitch.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Bynum isn't a dunker.

But it seems that's all you value, And 1.

Kareem wasn't a dunker either. Duncan isn't much of a dunker.

To this day - Duncan gets rejected pretty bad at times.

Jarred Jeffries - flat out frustrated and absolutely stopped him in one game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251112027

Duncan 3-18. That's the 3 time MVP ....

Even the stats show it

Considering Duncan in my book and most experts is the best bigman in the game - Here is a SF like Jeffries giving him fits.

So I guess we all have different opinions. Some will choose to over do it on Bynum's upside. Some will understate it. I don't think he has a limit. I do think it's unlikely he becomes a FP since those are very rare and require a lot of developpment.

BUT I refuse to put a limit on him. Even if I don't expect him to more than "good"


Who said anything about Bynum being a "dunker" or not?

I merely have issues with those who continue to insist that he has "surprising" athletic ability. The fact that someone of his size, length, and age gets stuffed by a SF of average athletic ability should go a long ways towards disproving that.

But it goes more to the point of how homers (like Angel) tend to overestimate the abilities or prowess of players who play on teams that they root for.

B Cook puts together two very good back-to-back games = future All-Star.

Bynum fakes Shaq out of his jock and dunks = special player

Bynum fails to box out Shaq, gets bammed on, and crumples to the floor = foul on Shaq

Where's the middle ground here?

Mike _at_ LG provides an honest in-depth analysis of Bynum after watching several SPL games. He declines to tow the homer party line in terms of expectations and it's all because the Lakers didn't draft Danny Granger?

C'mon.

See any pattern here?

ETA: I could care less that Jared Jeffries got loose on Duncan. Duncan ain't got a damn thing to prove to me.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:58 pm    Post subject:

^
You ignored the part where I mentioned Tim Duncan.

Seems that a SF by the name of Jeffries owned him pretty bad too ...

BTW - I never called Bynum an elite athlete. He has great length and hands - but not the explosive leaper or mover on the court that elite athletes ussually are.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
^
You ignored the part where I mentioned Tim Duncan.

Seems that a SF by the name of Jeffries owned him pretty bad too ...

BTW - I never called Bynum an elite athlete. He has great length and hands - but not the explosive leaper or mover on the court that elite athletes ussually are.


No I didn't. I just forgot to add my thoughts on it before I hit the SUBMIT button.

But speaking of "ignoring parts"...

Quote:
Who said anything about Bynum being a "dunker" or not?

I merely have issues with those who continue to insist that he has "surprising" athletic ability. The fact that someone of his size, length, and age gets stuffed by a SF of average athletic ability should go a long ways towards disproving that.

But it goes more to the point of how homers (like Angel) tend to overestimate the abilities or prowess of players who play on teams that they root for.

B Cook puts together two very good back-to-back games = future All-Star.

Bynum fakes Shaq out of his jock and dunks = special player

Bynum fails to box out Shaq, gets bammed on, and crumples to the floor = foul on Shaq

Where's the middle ground here?

Mike ( a t ) LG provides an honest in-depth analysis of Bynum after watching several SPL games. He declines to tow the homer party line in terms of expectations and it's all because the Lakers didn't draft Danny Granger?

C'mon.

See any pattern here?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:06 pm    Post subject:

MDMO49 wrote:
ducasse wrote:
MDMO49 wrote:

Bynum isn't a bust, but he isn't a superstar either. Can he end up being either? Sure. But not likely, either way.




You are assessing that Bynum isn't a bust or a superstar? He's 18 years old! Think about how ridiculous that statement is. It's absolutely impossible to make that assessment at 18 years old.




I'm just better at assessing talent than you are. Don't worry its nothign bad.

I knew Rush couldn't play from the first SPL, and I was right. I knew Kobe would be special as a rookie, and I was right. I knew Sasha is bust and a half, and I'm right.


Oh please.

If you were so good you would be working as a consultant. What mistakes have you made in your assessments? Even Jerry West has made huge blunders. How about you? What huge assessment blunders have you made? None? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Anonymous people that brag about their assessment skills on message boards are 99.9% talking out of their ass.

The fact is that no one here knows how good or bad Bynum will be. People who come on here saying they know he's going top be this or that don't have a clue.
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