Lakers future in the delusioned effectiveness of small ball era.
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:56 pm    Post subject: Lakers future in the delusioned effectiveness of small ball era.

As evidenced by his rotations, Luke is obsessed with small ball. He even seems to be enamored with non effective small ball line ups.

Are we headed for turmoil with management and the coaching staff if Luke is unwilling to adjust his preferred style of play with the personnel he has available?

I believe when the likes of Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat, and a few others start dominating this league, people will realize that small ball and playing guys out of position isn't a winning formula long term.
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lakerjoshua
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject:

There's 3 or 4 piss and moan threads you could merge this with. IMHO just lock it up and let it die.
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject:

If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


Last edited by GoldenThroat on Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject:

lakerjoshua wrote:
There's 3 or 4 piss and moan threads you could merge this with. IMHO just lock it up and let it die.


Maybe you should read it again if you think this is a piss and moan post.
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AY2043
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:13 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.

WRONG!!!! Anthony Davis heroically led the Pelicans to the 8th seed 2 years ago, only to be defeated by those antiquated small ball playing losers in Golden State..
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SocalDevin
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


Valid points in regards to Deng and Young being played out of position. However, those other young bigs are still developing, and them not having success in the playoffs shouldn't reflect negatively upon them personally. It takes a good team to be effective in the post season, and to even get there.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject:

AY2043 wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.

WRONG!!!! Anthony Davis heroically led the Pelicans to the 8th seed 2 years ago, only to be defeated by those antiquated small ball playing losers in Golden State..


Oh damn

My bad
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GoldenThroat
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


Valid points in regards to Deng and Young being played out of position. However, those other young bigs are still developing, and them not having success in the playoffs shouldn't reflect negatively upon them personally. It takes a good team to be effective in the post season, and to even get there.


For sure, I just don't think the list of high usage bigs who've had team success in recent memory is particularly extensive. I don't envision a future where those guys are dominating the league in a meaningful way.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:50 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


Valid points in regards to Deng and Young being played out of position. However, those other young bigs are still developing, and them not having success in the playoffs shouldn't reflect negatively upon them personally. It takes a good team to be effective in the post season, and to even get there.


For sure, I just don't think the list of high usage bigs who've had team success in recent memory is particularly extensive. I don't envision a future where those guys are dominating the league in a meaningful way.


Even Pau was a demonstrably low usage big to the nth degree during our most recent run.

The trend has been a long time coming. People just didn't notice.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject:

This is the line up (Randle, Nance, Ingram, Russell, & Clarkson) many fans, including myself, have wanted to see all season. It took an injury to Zu to make it happen (I know they ran this line up slightly from time to time). What I like about this group is their chemistry. This is the highly touted, and very talented Lakers young core. This is crew on the home games brochures. Has it been as effective as I hope, eh, but they are a very competitive & fun to watch. I know things haven't gone well in the past couple of seasons, but when they do, and when Staples is rockin', these guys shine the brightest. Remember Mamba Day? They all contributed.

Not to blame Randle because it's not completely his fault, but if he was more of a rim protector, defender, & three point shooter, this line-up would be trouble for most teams in the league.

Let me paraphrase the wise Mikey from The Goonies. This is our time down here, that's their time up there. Tomorrow when you wake you'll be in a different town, looking at a different sky.

I am enjoying this squad while I can, because when the season ends, some of these guys won't be here anymore. Whether is to move up in the draft, whether it's to get some complimentary roll players, or whether it's to get rid of some horrible contracts (Deng, Moz. Blame Mitch & Jim), some of these guys will be gone. And we at least will know what the 5 or then together looks like. And it definitely is a lot of fun.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:37 am    Post subject:

The difference is that players like Davis, KAT or Embiid, despite being 6'11-7'0, play like smaller players. They shoot from outside, defend the perimeter, have good pass and have incredible speed for their size. Keyword here is mobility.

What seems to be over is the era of big men who anchor the attack, posting up, providing low mobility. That's the main reason Okafor's name is not listed above.

What small ball shows is that's more valuable a 6'9 guy that plays like that than a 7'0 who doesn't. If you have a seven-footer that does this job, great!

That's why it's so important for Julius to develop an outside shot and learn team defense. And why Zubac still has a long way to go: he either improves his mobility and footwork or develops a great defensive awareness (like Marc Gasol) that allows him to close this speed gap. Otherwise, he will be just a good player coming from the bench for specific stretches of the game. Just for the record, I believe Big Zu will improve a lot on both ends.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:12 am    Post subject: Re: Lakers future in the delusioned effectiveness of small ball era.

SocalDevin wrote:
As evidenced by his rotations, Luke is obsessed with small ball. He even seems to be enamored with non effective small ball line ups.

Are we headed for turmoil with management and the coaching staff if Luke is unwilling to adjust his preferred style of play with the personnel he has available?

I believe when the likes of Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat, and a few others start dominating this league, people will realize that small ball and playing guys out of position isn't a winning formula long term.


If we had any of thoses bigs we'd be playing them
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:35 am    Post subject:

Sigh. Imo, style doesn't win you games. Playing an effective strategy based on the players you have does. I have not been much a fan of Luke this year.

But at the end of the day, the key is to play under a philosophy that maximizes your talent. If it is small ball, then so be it. If it is to play big, then so be it.

That was the mistake, IMO, teams made when they would go against us when we had Shaq. They tried to out Shaq us rather than find a way to play their game whether big or small.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:43 am    Post subject:

Lakers have Zubac as the Center of the future will have versatility to play big with Zubac or go small with Nance/Randle depending on matchups
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dcarter4kobe
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:03 am    Post subject:

I think this post was mainly a shot at the Nance/Randle pairing? I did have a problem with Luke not going with Zu in 4th quarters b/c of defense when the Randle/Nance pairing wasn't much better on that end.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:08 am    Post subject:

Didn't they shut down Zu for the season ? And even if he's a bigger body, I'am not sure he provides much more defense at this point.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject:

"Small ball" is simply an attempt to put more shooters and initiators on the floor to a team's clear benefit: there's more spacing, better ball movement, and players on the floor who can attack off the dribble. That can be accomplished by surrounding a unicorn center like Nikola Jokic with four other shooters/initiators, or by going small with toolsy hybrid forwards like Draymond and Lebron who have guard skills and can defend multiple positions.

Nance and Randle provide very little of that. The Lakers don't have a proactive "small ball" lineup, they have a reactive one. But just because the Lakers don't have the personnel for it doesn't mean that "small ball" is a gimmick when it's clearly so conducive to success. And all of the bigs you've named are products of the small ball era - they are bigs who are more effective because they play like smalls.

I'm all for putting as many skilled basketball players on the court together as possible so I never have to see another lumbering Easter Island monolith like Kendrick Perkins ever again in the NBA.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


To be fair, over half of those guys have only played for a couple of seasons or less. And Davis and Cousins have been surrounded by (bleep) talent since they entered the league til recently.

But I think maybe only three of those guys (AD, Embiid, and KAT) are truly generational big man talents, and it's hardly an NBA-wide trend to have a "unicorn" on that level. I'm sure these guys will anchor great teams in the future, but it's not like the Warriors, Cavs, and Spurs of the NBA won't be able to compete with them. Small ball is here to stay, all the old-timers need to get used to it.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject:

pmacla wrote:
Lakers have Zubac as the Center of the future will have versatility to play big with Zubac or go small with Nance/Randle depending on matchups


Zubac's defensive limitations concern me. He may be more of a 20-22 mpg starter who sits in crunch time.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
pmacla wrote:
Lakers have Zubac as the Center of the future will have versatility to play big with Zubac or go small with Nance/Randle depending on matchups


Zubac's defensive limitations concern me. He may be more of a 20-22 mpg starter who sits in crunch time.

I'm hoping for 26-28MPG.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:27 am    Post subject:

dcarter4kobe wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
pmacla wrote:
Lakers have Zubac as the Center of the future will have versatility to play big with Zubac or go small with Nance/Randle depending on matchups


Zubac's defensive limitations concern me. He may be more of a 20-22 mpg starter who sits in crunch time.

I'm hoping for 26-28MPG.


I'm thinking the nominal Bogut role on the Warriors, though Bogut was a great defender.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject:

TheBlackMamba wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


To be fair, over half of those guys have only played for a couple of seasons or less. And Davis and Cousins have been surrounded by (bleep) talent since they entered the league til recently.

But I think maybe only three of those guys (AD, Embiid, and KAT) are truly generational big man talents, and it's hardly an NBA-wide trend to have a "unicorn" on that level. I'm sure these guys will anchor great teams in the future, but it's not like the Warriors, Cavs, and Spurs of the NBA won't be able to compete with them. Small ball is here to stay, all the old-timers need to get used to it.

Jokic is the true unicorn. I can't think of a better passer in the NBA.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:05 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
TheBlackMamba wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


To be fair, over half of those guys have only played for a couple of seasons or less. And Davis and Cousins have been surrounded by (bleep) talent since they entered the league til recently.

But I think maybe only three of those guys (AD, Embiid, and KAT) are truly generational big man talents, and it's hardly an NBA-wide trend to have a "unicorn" on that level. I'm sure these guys will anchor great teams in the future, but it's not like the Warriors, Cavs, and Spurs of the NBA won't be able to compete with them. Small ball is here to stay, all the old-timers need to get used to it.

Jokic is the true unicorn. I can't think of a better passer in the NBA.


I wonder how much he will ever improve defensively. On offense, what a monster.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


Valid points in regards to Deng and Young being played out of position. However, those other young bigs are still developing, and them not having success in the playoffs shouldn't reflect negatively upon them personally. It takes a good team to be effective in the post season, and to even get there.


For sure, I just don't think the list of high usage bigs who've had team success in recent memory is particularly extensive. I don't envision a future where those guys are dominating the league in a meaningful way.


Even Pau was a demonstrably low usage big to the nth degree during our most recent run.

The trend has been a long time coming. People just didn't notice.


Actually Pau is a great example. People were mortified that a guy his size was playing C, and of course, everyone always gushed about how a guy like LO could thrive at PF. Nowadays Pau is clearly a C and then some, and LO could probably have been a C too on many teams.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
If anything, we played too big this year. Deng's a PF and Young's a SF.

Good luck with the whole "Anthony Davis, Cousins, Embiid, Porky, Kat dominating the league" thing, cuz those dudes have all combined for 0 career playoff games so far.


Valid points in regards to Deng and Young being played out of position. However, those other young bigs are still developing, and them not having success in the playoffs shouldn't reflect negatively upon them personally. It takes a good team to be effective in the post season, and to even get there.


For sure, I just don't think the list of high usage bigs who've had team success in recent memory is particularly extensive. I don't envision a future where those guys are dominating the league in a meaningful way.


Shaq ruined it for everybody
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