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evetssteve10
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
Bron is an all time great. I'll take Kobe but Kobe, td, bron are all grouped imo



Bron is in the top 10 - Kobe is in the top 3. KD is an all timer but he needs to accomplish more team wise before any of those kinds of comments begin - I absolutely love KD's game - I think he's already in the top 20



**** sorry I misread your TD as being KD
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
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I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Yeah agreed. Even when they aren't trash, sometimes you go up against a better team. Everyone expected GS to win. They were projected like 93% to win even. Hard to fault someone for failing to capitalize on 7% odds esp when you don't have 100% control.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject:

Can we all just agree that max kellerman has turned into a complete and total hack job if he wasn't already? He summed up Kobes game as "maybe the greatest hard shot maker ever" yea max, that totally encompasses the totality of just how incredible Kobe was with the basketball. He was so much more than that, and so much more than Jordan 2.0. He was a student of the game in general - he was the Shang Tsung from Mortal Kombat (spelling?) of the NBA - he studied just about EVERY great and learned from them from Hakeem's footwork to Dirks fall away. He was the culmination and improvement of every great that came before him and to box him into such a small stupid thing is disrespectful crap.
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject:

evetssteve10 wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Did you read literally the next couple sentences where I said unless your team is complete trash?

Either I missed it or I read it before you edited your post. Either way, I still don't agree. Do you blame Kobe for losing in 2008? Those weren't trash rosters around him, but is it his fault Pau decided to just not show up in the 2008 Finals? How about 2011? 2012?
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evetssteve10
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Yeah agreed. Even when they aren't trash, sometimes you go up against a better team. Everyone expected GS to win. They were projected like 93% to win even. Hard to fault someone for failing to capitalize on 7% odds esp when you don't have 100% control.



Ok great what's the excuse for the other 5 losses?????? 2007 is somewhat understandable but come on it's a trend at this point - the dude has been on nothing but super teams the last 7 years and people are acting like he was playing with scrubs
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evetssteve10
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
evetssteve10 wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Did you read literally the next couple sentences where I said unless your team is complete trash?

Either I missed it or I read it before you edited your post. Either way, I still don't agree. Do you blame Kobe for losing in 2008? Those weren't trash rosters around him, but is it his fault Pau decided to just not show up in the 2008 Finals? How about 2011? 2012?



No I don't blame Kobe - that's why I said it doesn't happen every time I said most of the time.


FYI the only thing i edited was saying triple doubles aren't that big of a deal these days because I didn't want to take away anyone's accomplishments because that's unfair - but that's all I edited
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tox
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject:

evetssteve10 wrote:
tox wrote:
evetssteve10 wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Did you read literally the next couple sentences where I said unless your team is complete trash?

Either I missed it or I read it before you edited your post. Either way, I still don't agree. Do you blame Kobe for losing in 2008? Those weren't trash rosters around him, but is it his fault Pau decided to just not show up in the 2008 Finals? How about 2011? 2012?



No I don't blame Kobe - that's why I said it doesn't happen every time I said most of the time.


FYI the only thing i edited was saying triple doubles aren't that big of a deal these days because I didn't want to take away anyone's accomplishments because that's unfair - but that's all I edited

OK, I wasn't accusing you of anything. I wasn't sure. That's fair enough. Personally I extend your "trash teammates" to just looking at it in terms of relative talent disparity. The same way I don't blame Kobe for losing with trash in '06 and '07, I don't blame LeBron for losing at a major talent deficit in '07, '15, and '17. I do however blame him for '11 and (to a lesser extent) '14.

Likewise I wouldn't blame Kobe for losing in '07, '08 or '12 but maybe I would for '11 or '04.

But to each their own.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject:

Phil, Shaq, Fox and Kobe of 2001 would have screamed their heads off if everybody is playing cavaliers defense. I swear Oneal would have sent KD and Curry to the floor if they dared to dunk or make layups. Hack, Kobe would have sacrificed his offense a bit to clam down either KD or Curry.
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evetssteve10
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
evetssteve10 wrote:
tox wrote:
evetssteve10 wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Did you read literally the next couple sentences where I said unless your team is complete trash?

Either I missed it or I read it before you edited your post. Either way, I still don't agree. Do you blame Kobe for losing in 2008? Those weren't trash rosters around him, but is it his fault Pau decided to just not show up in the 2008 Finals? How about 2011? 2012?



No I don't blame Kobe - that's why I said it doesn't happen every time I said most of the time.


FYI the only thing i edited was saying triple doubles aren't that big of a deal these days because I didn't want to take away anyone's accomplishments because that's unfair - but that's all I edited

OK, I wasn't accusing you of anything. I wasn't sure. That's fair enough. Personally I extend your "trash teammates" to just looking at it in terms of relative talent disparity. The same way I don't blame Kobe for losing with trash in '06 and '07, I don't blame LeBron for losing at a major talent deficit in '07, '15, and '17. I do however blame him for '11 and (to a lesser extent) '14.

Likewise I wouldn't blame Kobe for losing in '07, '08 or '12 but maybe I would for '11 or '04.

But to each their own.



I would just eliminate all non finals appearances from the equation completely - I believe if you were good enough to get to the promised land you need to execute better than 3-5 to be considered in the conversation for all time great. That's just me but I don't know how it's arguable - unless your stance is that the east is absolutely terrible and that LBJ shouldn't have even won as many as he did in the first place - because let's be honest that's true - if Lebron was in the west he would be lucky to have 3 finals appearances total right now - and he knows it - there's a reason he's avoided the WC like the plague

And thank you for the kind words I didn't mean to come off as defensive - you made good points
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:24 pm    Post subject:

If you're good enough to make the Finals, you're good enough to win the title. Plain and simple.
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evetssteve10
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject:

Can we at least agree on one thing? That Lebrons game is EXTREMELY limited - he has very few offensive tools. This is his entire offensive toolbox:


-transition up the court full speed and barrel thru anything in his way and pretend to get fouled while he elbows his opponent in the face (very effective at scoring this way)
-great court vision - slings passes to weak side and strong side shooters
-backs down his defender (only from 6 feet or closer tho) if he's in the post anywhere much farther than that he is extremely inconsistent due to poor footwork and poor shooting/handles
-pray he shoots a 3 and that it hits something
-drive to the hoop (very effective if he doesn't get stripped or have to dribble more than one or two times)
-can't even be counted on to make a FT

That's pretty much it. When you look at a player like Kobe, or KD even they don't really have a single area of expertise that they don't completely excel at

Let's look at Kobe for example. There's not a single thing he could not do on offense. Nothing - he was even the best post player in the NBA for a while - which is ridiculous for a guard. He was also the teams main facilitator most years which shows he could do so at a winning level. And then on the defensive end he's one of the best on ball defenders of all time at his position - Lebron is more of a weak side helper and also a guy that likes to run down and block from behind which is impressive but overall there's no contest that Kobe took on the defensive challenge of the other teams best player and wanted to humiliate them
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ringfinger
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject:

evetssteve10 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Yeah agreed. Even when they aren't trash, sometimes you go up against a better team. Everyone expected GS to win. They were projected like 93% to win even. Hard to fault someone for failing to capitalize on 7% odds esp when you don't have 100% control.



Ok great what's the excuse for the other 5 losses?????? 2007 is somewhat understandable but come on it's a trend at this point - the dude has been on nothing but super teams the last 7 years and people are acting like he was playing with scrubs


I do think he should be "blamed" if you will for any series in which he was favored to win, and lost.

And he should be "credited" for series in which they were not favored to win but won anyway.

To flip it, do you put an asterisk on Kobes finals record because he always played the "Easy East"? I personally don't.

I also only consider Lebrons Miami teams as super teams. Not the CLE teams. I wouldnt even trade all of our young guys for Lebrons roster.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
evetssteve10 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
tox wrote:
Quote:
I don't care how good the other teams secondary players are if you are the "best player in the world and possibly ever*(lmfao at the second part) then you should win - that's it - and that's what happens most of the time.

Basketball is a team sport. I can't agree with any logic that leads me to criticize Kobe for failing to win with trash like Smush Parker and Kwame Brown next to him -- and that's exactly what this quote suggests.


Yeah agreed. Even when they aren't trash, sometimes you go up against a better team. Everyone expected GS to win. They were projected like 93% to win even. Hard to fault someone for failing to capitalize on 7% odds esp when you don't have 100% control.



Ok great what's the excuse for the other 5 losses?????? 2007 is somewhat understandable but come on it's a trend at this point - the dude has been on nothing but super teams the last 7 years and people are acting like he was playing with scrubs


I do think he should be "blamed" if you will for any series in which he was favored to win, and lost.

And he should be "credited" for series in which they were not favored to win but won anyway.

To flip it, do you put an asterisk on Kobes finals record because he always played the "Easy East"? I personally don't.

I also only consider Lebrons Miami teams as super teams. Not the CLE teams. I wouldnt even trade all of our young guys for Lebrons roster.

ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING LEBRON NEEDS MORE HELP.
BUT WHEN THEY BEAT THE WARRIORS LAST SEASON, NOBODY COMPLAINED ABOUT HIS SUPPORTING CASTS.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject:

I'm not complaining about his supporting cast at all. He's got a very good supporting cast.

Is it as good as Durants? No, not even close.

Thats just reality.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
I'm not complaining about his supporting cast at all. He's got a very good supporting cast.

Is it as good as Durants? No, not even close.

Thats just reality.

Come on. If you are a superstar, having been there, you lead them.
When you lose, dont say anything unbelievable like I have never been playing with superteam like Smush Parker.

For a while I was tempting to say what if 2006 Kobe was playing with Irving, Love, Tristan Thompson, Smith against the current Warriors. It would be sexy I guarantee you.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:41 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
I'm not complaining about his supporting cast at all. He's got a very good supporting cast.

Is it as good as Durants? No, not even close.

Thats just reality.

Come on. If you are a superstar, having been there, you lead them.
When you lose, dont say anything unbelievable like I have never been playing with superteam like Smush Parker.

For a while I was tempting to say what if 2006 Kobe was playing with Irving, Love, Tristan Thompson, Smith against the current Warriors. It would be sexy I guarantee you.


Well, i do agree with you that Lebron HAS played on a super team. I just think that was with Miami. As I said before, I would not trade our roster for Lebrons, I just don't think the team is that great without him. With him, they are very good.

If Kobe was playing against these Warriors, with Cavs teammates, I'd suspect he'd lose. And I wouldnt hold it against him if he did. The Warriors are stacked.

Which playoff losses of Kobes do you count against him exactly?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject:

Kobe did not make an excuse when losing in the finals.
He worked harder to prove people wrong.
If 2006 Kobe could will Smush Parker, Kwame Brown to force the number one seed to 7 game in the playoffs, I'd bet my money on THAT Kobe with Bron's current casts against the stacked Warriors. No doubt at all.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
Kobe did not make an excuse when losing in the finals.
He worked harder to prove people wrong.
If 2006 Kobe could will Smush Parker, Kwame Brown to force the number one seed to 7 game in the playoffs, I'd bet my money on THAT Kobe with Bron's current casts against the stacked Warriors. No doubt at all.


Whether someone makes an excuse or not is irrelevant to me. I agree its silly of Lebron to say he has never played with a super team.

As for the hypothetical scenario, I doubt it. Kobe had what I think is a better roster around him in Pau, Lamar, Ariza, and lost, by 39 pts in that last game, to a team worse than the Warriors. But whats the point in debating hypotheticals. Who really knows.

And I don't think the Suns were the #1 seed since we were 7th in that season no?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:06 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
Kobe did not make an excuse when losing in the finals.
He worked harder to prove people wrong.
If 2006 Kobe could will Smush Parker, Kwame Brown to force the number one seed to 7 game in the playoffs, I'd bet my money on THAT Kobe with Bron's current casts against the stacked Warriors. No doubt at all.


Whether someone makes an excuse or not is irrelevant to me. I agree its silly of Lebron to say he has never played with a super team.

As for the hypothetical scenario, I doubt it. Kobe had what I think is a better roster around him in Pau, Lamar, Ariza, and lost, by 39 pts in that last game, to a team worse than the Warriors. But whats the point in debating hypotheticals. Who really knows.

And I don't think the Suns were the #1 seed since we were 7th in that season no?

He did come back to win 2 in arrow.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:17 pm    Post subject:

moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
Kobe did not make an excuse when losing in the finals.
He worked harder to prove people wrong.
If 2006 Kobe could will Smush Parker, Kwame Brown to force the number one seed to 7 game in the playoffs, I'd bet my money on THAT Kobe with Bron's current casts against the stacked Warriors. No doubt at all.


Whether someone makes an excuse or not is irrelevant to me. I agree its silly of Lebron to say he has never played with a super team.

As for the hypothetical scenario, I doubt it. Kobe had what I think is a better roster around him in Pau, Lamar, Ariza, and lost, by 39 pts in that last game, to a team worse than the Warriors. But whats the point in debating hypotheticals. Who really knows.

And I don't think the Suns were the #1 seed since we were 7th in that season no?

He did come back to win 2 in arrow.


Bow?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
ringfinger wrote:
moonriver24 wrote:
Kobe did not make an excuse when losing in the finals.
He worked harder to prove people wrong.
If 2006 Kobe could will Smush Parker, Kwame Brown to force the number one seed to 7 game in the playoffs, I'd bet my money on THAT Kobe with Bron's current casts against the stacked Warriors. No doubt at all.


Whether someone makes an excuse or not is irrelevant to me. I agree its silly of Lebron to say he has never played with a super team.

As for the hypothetical scenario, I doubt it. Kobe had what I think is a better roster around him in Pau, Lamar, Ariza, and lost, by 39 pts in that last game, to a team worse than the Warriors. But whats the point in debating hypotheticals. Who really knows.

And I don't think the Suns were the #1 seed since we were 7th in that season no?

He did come back to win 2 in arrow.


Bow?

Lol.
What followed then haters pointing out Kobe could not win without great centers. Funny.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject:

Well, it's true he never won without a big but who cares? Every great player has needed good teammates to win. It's a team sport after all.

If it was 1 on 1, Kobe would have a lot more than 5 rings.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject:

Official Lebron's Legacy Thread
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
Official Lebron's Legacy Thread


Official ringfinger Thread
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:49 pm    Post subject:

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19095595_1810562638972252_76046968949735377_o.jpg?oh=096bb94f738acb03c4a74db4e6ff6ab1&oe=59E271A9

https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19105826_1426235144099601_1196558226459690633_n.jpg?oh=3f502e378f7417e2462deeb8ed3d77c9&oe=59E0E770
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