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Yumyumcha
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:35 am    Post subject:

Daphanabe wrote:
What I'll always dislike him for is the potential role he played in Kobe tearing his Achilles. I know Kobe is stubborn, but he needed to exert his influence more (I don't think he's anywhere near the Phil/Pop level of getting people to do what they want).


No one is. And try getting Tyrone Lue to exert his influence more on Lebron
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:19 am    Post subject:

Yumyumcha wrote:
Daphanabe wrote:
What I'll always dislike him for is the potential role he played in Kobe tearing his Achilles. I know Kobe is stubborn, but he needed to exert his influence more (I don't think he's anywhere near the Phil/Pop level of getting people to do what they want).


No one is. And try getting Tyrone Lue to exert his influence more on Lebron


I think GT hit the nail earlier that Dantonin is great at X's and O's but downright horrible with people. I don't expect Phil/Pop, because like you said, that's elite. But to be so far away from that level in handling the team (and his stars) doomed him, and by result, Kobe's Achilles.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:06 am    Post subject:

still not buying into MDA.

Harden has been on this reg season tear, early playoff exit every season since leaving OKC.

having MDA is better for MDA to rebrand himself than houston as an org. luckily they play OKC and will advance otherwise both teams likely would have a first round exit.

In LA, the most stubborn person was MDA but i guess that's allowed for a coach with such a niche system that's already evolved elsewhere in the league to championship results; and allows him to continue trash talking his old team.

Pretty funny that he expected Pau to run after the seasons he had being so slow, Nash whom he knows so well to suddenly be in prime shape, kobe coming off hand/knee/ankle injuries to play so much. Then for such an offensive minded coach to have failed so badly at interpreting Dwight and his lack of offense.

But they were all just stubborn.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:25 am    Post subject:

Unlike elite coaches he has not shown he can get a wing/ISO star to play his system and buy in.

He needs a specific MVP level point guard to get it done.

When he has that he is outstanding (PHX HOU)
When he does not have that he is poor/crap (NY/LA)

I rate Pop, Carlisle, Spo, Bud, Kerr much higher.
I'm much happier with Luke than MDA.

Good for MDA though. Seems he has learned from some mistakes and also become sharper as most coaches do when they hit their 60s.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:57 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Unlike elite coaches he has not shown he can get a wing/ISO star to play his system and buy in.

He needs a specific MVP level point guard to get it done.

When he has that he is outstanding (PHX HOU)
When he does not have that he is poor/crap (NY/LA)

I rate Pop, Carlisle, Spo, Bud, Kerr much higher.
I'm much happier with Luke than MDA.

Good for MDA though. Seems he has learned from some mistakes and also become sharper as most coaches do when they hit their 60s.


Phil Jackson used scrubs for point guards on all his titles because he had the luxury of top 5 talents of ALL TIME on his roster. If not scrubs, over the hill has beens like Ron Harper and B. Shaw. So that's like saying PJ is not on MDA's level because he has never gotten an elite point guard to buy into his system.

An elite wing like the MJs, the Kobes, the Wades, the Lebrons... will get their rings. And I just think it's a convenient argument to all of a sudden not consider Harden a wing. James Harden was a shooting guard, and he bought into the system. Isn't that what you're saying MDA can't do? Isn't Harden buying in? MDA can do more with subpar rosters than PJ can.

By ELITE ISO I take it you're highlighting Carmelo Anthony. You think Pop and PJ can win a title with Carmelo as the guy? Did he buy into Hornacek's triangle? You think he's on MJ, Kobe, Lebron level? Neither is Harden, and he's probably going to fall short with Harden too, but that's not about coaching, that's about not being fortunate enough to coach THE ALL TIME GREATEST, not just regular super stars like Melo and Harden. Yeah he had Kobe, but that wasn't really THE KOBE, and Kobe wore #8 because of Dantoni when he was a kid in Italy. A story that would have been hammered home if we had success, but because we didn't, then the narrative became Kobe didn't buy it. Hog wash.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:29 am    Post subject:

Daphanabe wrote:
Yumyumcha wrote:
Daphanabe wrote:
What I'll always dislike him for is the potential role he played in Kobe tearing his Achilles. I know Kobe is stubborn, but he needed to exert his influence more (I don't think he's anywhere near the Phil/Pop level of getting people to do what they want).


No one is. And try getting Tyrone Lue to exert his influence more on Lebron


I think GT hit the nail earlier that Dantonin is great at X's and O's but downright horrible with people. I don't expect Phil/Pop, because like you said, that's elite. But to be so far away from that level in handling the team (and his stars) doomed him, and by result, Kobe's Achilles.


Is he horrible with people? or he is horrible with "star player" that doesn't want to buy into a team system.

From all account, Coaches, and most of his players he ever coached have nothing but great things to say about him.

There's a reason he continues to get jobs, if you are terrible with people you aren't getting hired period.

Don't buy into media driven BS narrative.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
still not buying into MDA.

Harden has been on this reg season tear, early playoff exit every season since leaving OKC.

having MDA is better for MDA to rebrand himself than houston as an org. luckily they play OKC and will advance otherwise both teams likely would have a first round exit.

In LA, the most stubborn person was MDA but i guess that's allowed for a coach with such a niche system that's already evolved elsewhere in the league to championship results; and allows him to continue trash talking his old team.

Pretty funny that he expected Pau to run after the seasons he had being so slow, Nash whom he knows so well to suddenly be in prime shape, kobe coming off hand/knee/ankle injuries to play so much. Then for such an offensive minded coach to have failed so badly at interpreting Dwight and his lack of offense.

But they were all just stubborn.


If Houston was in the East they would be the number 1 seed...

Lucky Lebron is in the east right?

Look at the Spurs tied 2-2...They cant lost to Memphis can they???

No one would dare say its Pop's fault if they lose...Its ohh Aldridge and Gasol and parker are old...

Look at Houstons team...He is 100% overachieving with that roster. He got a team to completely buy in THE FIRST SEASON!!!

All this crap about teams need time to gel etc!!! First season and they are favorites to get to the WCF...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject:

All this crap about...Lets add 2 star players together. Blake and PG...

that's not how it works and D'antoni along with Pop are proving that...

You need a balanced Team with an identity.

The rockets are greater than there individual talents because there team plays together....

What is the saying...the sum is greater than the individual parts?? something like that haha.

No one would say Ryan Anderson > Blake Griffin....But for the Rockets this is 100% true...

And yes Harden is a great player. Not because of talent so much, as his willingness to buy in for the most part. Hes making his team better because hes accepted the identity and role. And because his team is better he is better.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
still not buying into MDA.

Harden has been on this reg season tear, early playoff exit every season since leaving OKC.

having MDA is better for MDA to rebrand himself than houston as an org. luckily they play OKC and will advance otherwise both teams likely would have a first round exit.

In LA, the most stubborn person was MDA but i guess that's allowed for a coach with such a niche system that's already evolved elsewhere in the league to championship results; and allows him to continue trash talking his old team.

Pretty funny that he expected Pau to run after the seasons he had being so slow, Nash whom he knows so well to suddenly be in prime shape, kobe coming off hand/knee/ankle injuries to play so much. Then for such an offensive minded coach to have failed so badly at interpreting Dwight and his lack of offense.

But they were all just stubborn.


That is why it didn't work here. A stubborn coach trying to change the ways stubborn players used to play.

It is easier to sell a system to players lacking postseason success than it is changing the habits of old dogs used to win trophies you never won one yourself. I don't believe a MJ with a few titles would embrace the triangle the way he did or Shaq/Kobe, Kobe/Pau if Phil didn't have a winning history running it with MJ.

Phil could manage egos, I still think it is his main strength as coach, I don't remember about any team winning it using the Tri without Tex Winter getting it deep into the details of the system. I'm a firm believer that the mind behind the titles was Tex, but Phil as a coach had the needed human relationship skills to keep players focused.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:14 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Unlike elite coaches he has not shown he can get a wing/ISO star to play his system and buy in.

He needs a specific MVP level point guard to get it done.

When he has that he is outstanding (PHX HOU)
When he does not have that he is poor/crap (NY/LA)

I rate Pop, Carlisle, Spo, Bud, Kerr much higher.
I'm much happier with Luke than MDA.

Good for MDA though. Seems he has learned from some mistakes and also become sharper as most coaches do when they hit their 60s.


He had "Iso Joe" spotting up and draining threes. It was early in his career and before he went to the dark side, of course.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject:

BobbyB wrote:
AshesToAshes wrote:
still not buying into MDA.

Harden has been on this reg season tear, early playoff exit every season since leaving OKC.

having MDA is better for MDA to rebrand himself than houston as an org. luckily they play OKC and will advance otherwise both teams likely would have a first round exit.

In LA, the most stubborn person was MDA but i guess that's allowed for a coach with such a niche system that's already evolved elsewhere in the league to championship results; and allows him to continue trash talking his old team.

Pretty funny that he expected Pau to run after the seasons he had being so slow, Nash whom he knows so well to suddenly be in prime shape, kobe coming off hand/knee/ankle injuries to play so much. Then for such an offensive minded coach to have failed so badly at interpreting Dwight and his lack of offense.

But they were all just stubborn.


If Houston was in the East they would be the number 1 seed...

Lucky Lebron is in the east right?

Look at the Spurs tied 2-2...They cant lost to Memphis can they???

No one would dare say its Pop's fault if they lose...Its ohh Aldridge and Gasol and parker are old...

Look at Houstons team...He is 100% overachieving with that roster. He got a team to completely buy in THE FIRST SEASON!!!

All this crap about teams need time to gel etc!!! First season and they are favorites to get to the WCF...


We'll have to agree to disagree on a lot of points here.

i do blame pop all the time. His system is over-achieving consistently. His team is always waiting for the opportune moment to strike the better teams that are worn out. He never overtakes a dynasty in it's prime but he's always the one waiting for them to finish peaking.

I wasn't saying anything against the rockets players. Just MDA. as a coach if he has a strong pg to run the team and his "vision" they'll eat it up and do well. even better when facing a team like OKC that is overachieving also.

But once MDA needs to coach more he loses his team. The MORE involved he gets the LESS tuned in his team is. He's coaching a team that went through a full D12 contract - this freedom is a godsend to them.

Harden has this team over-achieving in the same way i haven't seen or heard a peep from OKC's coach.

But somehow, the LA experience with Jim/Mitch was so bad both MDA/Scott need to continue to rehash their time here and deflect the blame. An expert over-achieving coach of the year material wouldn't have that regret behind them.

and you know you're reaching with the "if they were in the East" argument especially when the cav's sandbagged to avoid chicago. We're talking about Houston who's coming off ring expectations already.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject:

The reality is Dantoni is a great coach.

And he is probably going to lose to Golden State.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject:

BobbyB wrote:
The reality is Dantoni is a great coach.

And he is probably going to lose to Golden State.


switch mda and donovan and everything stays the same.

Westbrook is still more deserving mvp and houston is still up 3-1 in the series.

If Mda gets passed Pop, i'd be forced to take a third look at mda though.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
BobbyB wrote:
The reality is Dantoni is a great coach.

And he is probably going to lose to Golden State.


switch mda and donovan and everything stays the same.

Westbrook is still more deserving mvp and houston is still up 3-1 in the series.

If Mda gets passed Pop, i'd be forced to take a third look at mda though.


I don't agree with this...

What is POp doesn't get past Fizdale? are you forced to rethink POP. or is just the players aren't good enough?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Unlike elite coaches he has not shown he can get a wing/ISO star to play his system and buy in.

He needs a specific MVP level point guard to get it done.

When he has that he is outstanding (PHX HOU)
When he does not have that he is poor/crap (NY/LA)

I rate Pop, Carlisle, Spo, Bud, Kerr much higher.
I'm much happier with Luke than MDA.

Good for MDA though. Seems he has learned from some mistakes and also become sharper as most coaches do when they hit their 60s.


Yes, just as as some other coaches advanced on his principles, he has continued to evolve (lot's more off ball movement for example)

As to the rest, eh, does Phil Jackson not need arguably the best player in the game and an uber sidekick, and a team built to run the triangle? Does that obviate what he's done? I think not. Very very few coaches, even among the most successful, can get too far outside their comfort lane.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject:

BobbyB wrote:
AshesToAshes wrote:
BobbyB wrote:
The reality is Dantoni is a great coach.

And he is probably going to lose to Golden State.


switch mda and donovan and everything stays the same.

Westbrook is still more deserving mvp and houston is still up 3-1 in the series.

If Mda gets passed Pop, i'd be forced to take a third look at mda though.


I don't agree with this...

What is POp doesn't get past Fizdale? are you forced to rethink POP. or is just the players aren't good enough?


Not a spurs fan, so wouldn't care enough. But the spurs are 100% pop after a couple decades now. so you gotta question a first round exit.

The point was if houston gets to the WCF than houston/mda are in phoenix/nash territory in year1 which needs a serious look. But i honestly believe a D12 frutrated squad met a very open coach and led by a very motivated harden. i dont think harden can will himself to the WCF; so mda's adjustments/coaching would be undeniable (unless harden gets the wade treatment in round2).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject:

Why is this a story? MDA has proven he can be a good coach with the right players (Phoenix and Houston). His coaching just isn't flexible enough when he has players whose strength is in the post.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:56 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Unlike elite coaches he has not shown he can get a wing/ISO star to play his system and buy in.

He needs a specific MVP level point guard to get it done.

When he has that he is outstanding (PHX HOU)
When he does not have that he is poor/crap (NY/LA)

I rate Pop, Carlisle, Spo, Bud, Kerr much higher.
I'm much happier with Luke than MDA.

Good for MDA though. Seems he has learned from some mistakes and also become sharper as most coaches do when they hit their 60s.


Yes, just as as some other coaches advanced on his principles, he has continued to evolve (lot's more off ball movement for example)

As to the rest, eh, does Phil Jackson not need arguably the best player in the game and an uber sidekick, and a team built to run the triangle? Does that obviate what he's done? I think not. Very very few coaches, even among the most successful, can get too far outside their comfort lane.
So true.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject:

AshesToAshes wrote:
BobbyB wrote:
AshesToAshes wrote:
BobbyB wrote:
The reality is Dantoni is a great coach.

And he is probably going to lose to Golden State.


switch mda and donovan and everything stays the same.

Westbrook is still more deserving mvp and houston is still up 3-1 in the series.

If Mda gets passed Pop, i'd be forced to take a third look at mda though.


I don't agree with this...

What is POp doesn't get past Fizdale? are you forced to rethink POP. or is just the players aren't good enough?


Not a spurs fan, so wouldn't care enough. But the spurs are 100% pop after a couple decades now. so you gotta question a first round exit.

The point was if houston gets to the WCF than houston/mda are in phoenix/nash territory in year1 which needs a serious look. But i honestly believe a D12 frutrated squad met a very open coach and led by a very motivated harden. i dont think harden can will himself to the WCF; so mda's adjustments/coaching would be undeniable (unless harden gets the wade treatment in round2).


I agree Pop is more proven...But hes also considered the greatest coach of all time by many...

And even if Houston doesn't get to the WCF...This season is a huge success for them...They have taken a bunch of Journey men around Harden and made a true team. they all trust each other and all play there roles. Its awesome to watch...There has to be some credit to Dnatoni for getting them to believe and defining there roles.

I also think Spurs are a better matchup for Houston than Memphis...

Spurs lack speed in the frontcourt to matchup with Ariza and Anderson on the perimeter high pick and roll with Harden...

Jamychal Green is proving he can move his feet on the perimeter and create a lot of problems...

Memphis is also an elite rebounding team which is one of the Rockets biggest weakness...

I still think Rockets can take either one...But they will be competitive series.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Unlike elite coaches he has not shown he can get a wing/ISO star to play his system and buy in.

He needs a specific MVP level point guard to get it done.

When he has that he is outstanding (PHX HOU)
When he does not have that he is poor/crap (NY/LA)

I rate Pop, Carlisle, Spo, Bud, Kerr much higher.
I'm much happier with Luke than MDA.

Good for MDA though. Seems he has learned from some mistakes and also become sharper as most coaches do when they hit their 60s.


Yes, just as as some other coaches advanced on his principles, he has continued to evolve (lot's more off ball movement for example)

As to the rest, eh, does Phil Jackson not need arguably the best player in the game and an uber sidekick, and a team built to run the triangle? Does that obviate what he's done? I think not. Very very few coaches, even among the most successful, can get too far outside their comfort lane.
So true.


LOl at the 60 thing....

Brad stevens, Luke Walton, SPO, Fiz, Quin Snyder, Scott brooks...these coaches aren't even 50??
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject:

chekmatex4 wrote:
Why is this a story? MDA has proven he can be a good coach with the right players (Phoenix and Houston). His coaching just isn't flexible enough when he has players whose strength is in the post.


More accurately players who delusionally think their strength is in the post. Dwight and Pau were just not effective there anymore, and they've since come around to accepting it.

He adapted pretty well to Shaq too, IIRC.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Unlike elite coaches he has not shown he can get a wing/ISO star to play his system and buy in.

He needs a specific MVP level point guard to get it done.

When he has that he is outstanding (PHX HOU)
When he does not have that he is poor/crap (NY/LA)

I rate Pop, Carlisle, Spo, Bud, Kerr much higher.
I'm much happier with Luke than MDA.

Good for MDA though. Seems he has learned from some mistakes and also become sharper as most coaches do when they hit their 60s.


Phil Jackson used scrubs for point guards on all his titles because he had the luxury of top 5 talents of ALL TIME on his roster. If not scrubs, over the hill has beens like Ron Harper and B. Shaw. So that's like saying PJ is not on MDA's level because he has never gotten an elite point guard to buy into his system.

An elite wing like the MJs, the Kobes, the Wades, the Lebrons... will get their rings. And I just think it's a convenient argument to all of a sudden not consider Harden a wing. James Harden was a shooting guard, and he bought into the system. Isn't that what you're saying MDA can't do? Isn't Harden buying in? MDA can do more with subpar rosters than PJ can.

By ELITE ISO I take it you're highlighting Carmelo Anthony. You think Pop and PJ can win a title with Carmelo as the guy? Did he buy into Hornacek's triangle? You think he's on MJ, Kobe, Lebron level? Neither is Harden, and he's probably going to fall short with Harden too, but that's not about coaching, that's about not being fortunate enough to coach THE ALL TIME GREATEST, not just regular super stars like Melo and Harden. Yeah he had Kobe, but that wasn't really THE KOBE, and Kobe wore #8 because of Dantoni when he was a kid in Italy. A story that would have been hammered home if we had success, but because we didn't, then the narrative became Kobe didn't buy it. Hog wash.


MJ didn't and hasn't won squat when PJ was not around. Can MDA do more with subpar rosters than PJ? Hardly. Even with a much deeper and talented roster in Phoenix, PJ and a crew where Kwame Brown and Smush Parker started gave them fits.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:46 pm    Post subject:

rwongega wrote:

MJ didn't and hasn't won squat when PJ was not around. Can MDA do more with subpar rosters than PJ? Hardly. Even with a much deeper and talented roster in Phoenix, PJ and a crew where Kwame Brown and Smush Parker started gave them fits.


Meh, that Suns team won 54 games. They missed Amare a lot. You could see what happened when the Suns had a healthy roster in 2007.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject:

BobbyB wrote:
The reality is Dantoni is a great coach.

And he is probably going to lose to Golden State.


I like how people assume they are going to get past Memphis or San Antonio the next round.....
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:54 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
BobbyB wrote:
The reality is Dantoni is a great coach.

And he is probably going to lose to Golden State.


I like how people assume they are going to get past Memphis or San Antonio the next round.....


I actually think Memphis give them more probs then San Antonio...However, I do assume they will beat either one of those teams.
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