Dr. Michael Eric Dyson: "Kobe is the Greatest Basketball Player of All-Time"
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splashmtn
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
The Logo wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
Lebron's finals record is the worst out of Kareem, Kobe, MJ's, Magic and Bird.

That's why he isn't the GOAT to me.

I give Jordan a slight edge over Kobe. But Jordan did have better teammates around him. Kobe never had a guy like Pippen who could take over a game on the defense/ball handling/scoring end. MJ was able to save energy and pick his spots due to Pippen. Kobe didn't have that luxury. Yeah Kobe had Gasol and Odom. But they were different players and weren't as effective as Pippen.

With this said.. Jordan was still undefeated in the finals and played in a good eastern conference throughout his career, unlike the joke of a Eastern conference that Lebron plays in.

Lebron's final record isn't without context though. Yes in binary, he has the worst Finals record out of the guys you mentioned, but Lebron was 22 in 2007 going up against the Spurs, with Eric Snow, Ilgauskas, and Gooden. 2011, Lebron just wet the bed. 2014, he had absolutely no help with Wade and Bosh both on the decline. Same thing with 2015, except Kyrie and Love were both injured and he put up the best individual performance out of anyone on the team, with Mozgov and JR Smith as his two best players.


With Lebron some people try to have it both ways. They like to discount how many times he's made it to the finals, saying that's just a matter of his being in the weak east. But then they make a big deal of him losing. To me, its one or the other. If he only made it to the finals because the east was weak, you'd expect his team to lose to the stronger western team.

I don't get the logic of thinking that the Cavs should have beat the Spurs in the 2007 finals just because they beat the Pistons and the Nets in the eastern playoffs.

Personally, I don't care about total finals appearances or finals w-l record. I only factor in total rings won and personal performance in the finals when evaluating players.

Going to the finals 3 times and winning 3 rings is not intrinsically more or less impressive to me than winning 3 rings in 10 finals.
and that logic would be flawed. its still ok you think that way. because on no planet is winning 3 rings out of 3 finals the same as only winning 3 out of 10. in now at shape or form is that the same.

its like saying the spurs winning 5 championships (1 every 2 years until they get 5) vs the lakers winning 3 in a row then 2 in a row. 5 is not 5 in that scenario. it is always much harder to maintain and stay on top or stay the king while the peasants throw rocks at the thrown every single year. you are getting everyone's best shot for 3 or 2 years straight. that's extremely hard to mentally deal with as well as physically. it's the reason most teams cant pull that off.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject:

AND ... here we go again with the "failing to qualify for the playoffs is actually a more impressive accomplishment than losing 4 - 3 in the NBA Finals" ...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:15 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
ok...sure. lebron switching teams was no big deal. twice. back to the og team. everyone does that.



As I said many superstars have switched teams.

Right after winning the MVP, Moses Malone joined the previous MVP Dr. J on a 76ers did that was in the finals.

Durant did the same thing in moving to Golden State.

And on and on ...

I know you don't like Lebron, which is fine with me. But if you think what he's done about moving between teams is unusual, you're just kidding yourself.

There's nothing new under the sun.

If players were more empowered back then, more people probably would've switched teams also. Players have the most power under the current CBA than they did any other era
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:18 pm    Post subject:

splashmtn wrote:
and that logic would be flawed. its still ok you think that way. because on no planet is winning 3 rings out of 3 finals the same as only winning 3 out of 10. in now at shape or form is that the same. .


You flaw is thinking the guy who got to three finals and wins three rings never failed. The other years he simply failed at an earliest stage. Look at it this way:

Players A and B each win three rings.

The next 7 years Player A makes the finals and loses. In his 7 years, Player B misses the playoffs entirely every single year.

If you think Player B is more successful, you have to think the Brooklyn Nets will have had a better season than the team that makes the finals and loses this year.


Last edited by activeverb on Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject:

Kobe is probably the toughest minded player of all-time but he is not even in the top 5 greatest all-time

1.Kareem
2.Jordan
3.Magic
4.Russell
5.Wilt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject:

I'm not sure how anyone can be tougher than the guy who has to run up and down the court with these toes, but anyway ...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1757693-everybody-look-at-lebron-james-toes

On a serious note, "toughest minded" is one of the most overused descriptors I've ever encountered in sports and business ... usually worthless jargon without any credible form of measurement. Particularly in Kobe's case, where there was such a sustained, documented effort to carefully script that narrative over the course of his career. He was more resilient than most, but that image has become more myth than reality ...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject:

Every player...er, every human in the world, would have flinched when Matt Barnes faked throwing the ball in his face. That alone is evidence that Kobe is the greatest something of all-time, whether that something is, toughest minded, craziest, psychopathic, slowest reflexes, worst eyesight, etc, is up for debate. But that act alone puts him at the top of some category.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Every player...er, every human in the world, would have flinched when Matt Barnes faked throwing the ball in his face. That alone is evidence that Kobe is the greatest something of all-time, whether that something is, toughest minded, craziest, psychopathic, slowest reflexes, worst eyesight, etc, is up for debate. But that act alone puts him at the top of some category.


Reflex control in a professional athlete is often startling for the casual observer. The ball was over his shoulder ... did you expect him to flinch, cower or run away?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Every player...er, every human in the world, would have flinched when Matt Barnes faked throwing the ball in his face. That alone is evidence that Kobe is the greatest something of all-time, whether that something is, toughest minded, craziest, psychopathic, slowest reflexes, worst eyesight, etc, is up for debate. But that act alone puts him at the top of some category.


Reflex control in a professional athlete is often startling for the casual observer. Did you seriously expect him to observably flinch, cower or run away?


lol
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
the association wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Every player...er, every human in the world, would have flinched when Matt Barnes faked throwing the ball in his face. That alone is evidence that Kobe is the greatest something of all-time, whether that something is, toughest minded, craziest, psychopathic, slowest reflexes, worst eyesight, etc, is up for debate. But that act alone puts him at the top of some category.


Reflex control in a professional athlete is often startling for the casual observer. Did you seriously expect him to observably flinch, cower or run away?


lol


I know ... I lol'd at the attempt to imbue "toughness" based on a baseline ball fake, too. That's OK - everyone (bleep) up ...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
OCWA wrote:
the association wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Every player...er, every human in the world, would have flinched when Matt Barnes faked throwing the ball in his face. That alone is evidence that Kobe is the greatest something of all-time, whether that something is, toughest minded, craziest, psychopathic, slowest reflexes, worst eyesight, etc, is up for debate. But that act alone puts him at the top of some category.


Reflex control in a professional athlete is often startling for the casual observer. Did you seriously expect him to observably flinch, cower or run away?


lol


I know ... I lol'd at the attempt to imbue "toughness" based on a baseline ball fake, too. That's OK - everyone (bleep) up ...



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:27 pm    Post subject:

the association wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Every player...er, every human in the world, would have flinched when Matt Barnes faked throwing the ball in his face. That alone is evidence that Kobe is the greatest something of all-time, whether that something is, toughest minded, craziest, psychopathic, slowest reflexes, worst eyesight, etc, is up for debate. But that act alone puts him at the top of some category.


Reflex control in a professional athlete is often startling for the casual observer. The ball was over his shoulder ... did you expect him to flinch, cower or run away?


I'd expect every other player in the league to flinch in that situation, look at how easily they get startled by mascots in the halls.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:34 am    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Every player...er, every human in the world, would have flinched when Matt Barnes faked throwing the ball in his face. That alone is evidence that Kobe is the greatest something of all-time, whether that something is, toughest minded, craziest, psychopathic, slowest reflexes, worst eyesight, etc, is up for debate. But that act alone puts him at the top of some category.


That's why Matt Barnes can't stay on 1 team. Can't even fake ball throw to a face staring at him.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject:

LakerDYnasty72 wrote:
KingKobe20 wrote:
96' MJ vs. 06' Kobe
In a one on one there's no way you can say with 100% confidence one or the other player will win guaranteed.

It just bothers me that from what I hear most of the damn time particularly from Jordan fans that Jordan is better. Without any stoned cold facts. Just that he never lost in a finals and he has won one more Chip.

That CRAP is tired AF LOL

Totally different era and Dyson makes a good point , the 2008 Celtics would of destroyed all those Seattle Sonic and Utah Jazz teams the Bulls played against in the 90's.

Im not saying one or the other is better. But I do like to point out most Jordan fans speak more from a nostalgic point of view rather than cold hard points .

Here's the coldest point I could think of the two.
Both these guys were straight up Ass holes lol.

Didn't really give a damn about self image towards the media and most importantly their teammates. They did whatever it took to win. They always had this type of attitude of I'm not here to be your best friend but to make you the best basketball player you can be.

They both were cursed of being overly obsessed with basketball.


Kobe had more handles and range on his jumper in particular behind the 3 point line.

Jordan had a little more athleticism and was a tad more quicker off the dribble.

Both of them were straight up pitbulls on defense.

Both had a flawless Mid range.

This is by far the best fantasy one on one matchup we basketball junkies whether old or young can think of.


I'd probably be inclined to respond to this post because it pointed out one of the main points I made earlier about Jordan having won one more chip than Kobe in five less seasons(my original post of a Jordan having played six less seasons was incorrect earlier)

But I'm not about to debate with anyone with your screen name. All I can say is I'm a Laker fan, Kobe fan, and agree to disagree, agreeably. Only opinions ya'll, only opinions.


All I'm sayin is most Jordan fans tend to not have the strongest points in this debate besides he got 6 rings.

An as for my username it was created in 2006 , which is the year Lebron came into the league as it just bugged me people were calling him King James.
If you also check my avatar which was created by myself it's showing Lebron who the real King of Basketball is lol
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject:

OCWA wrote:
Kobe is probably the toughest minded player of all-time but he is not even in the top 5 greatest all-time

1.Kareem
2.Jordan
3.Magic
4.Russell
5.Wilt

jordan says kobe is better than him. so does magic.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:12 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Kobe is probably the toughest minded player of all-time but he is not even in the top 5 greatest all-time

1.Kareem
2.Jordan
3.Magic
4.Russell
5.Wilt

jordan says kobe is better than him. so does magic.


Plus that list of top 5 Greatest players gotta be under the criteria as to what they accomplished because one on one, Kobe would of shredded up a lot of them. Especially if they are playing with 1's and 2's. No disrespect to Wilt and Bill because they didn't even play in a era with the 3 point line.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Kobe is probably the toughest minded player of all-time but he is not even in the top 5 greatest all-time

1.Kareem
2.Jordan
3.Magic
4.Russell
5.Wilt

jordan says kobe is better than him. so does magic.


Oh come on. Kobe didn't pick himself for top 4 so what does that mean?

That players dont pick themselves possibly?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:58 am    Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Kobe is probably the toughest minded player of all-time but he is not even in the top 5 greatest all-time

1.Kareem
2.Jordan
3.Magic
4.Russell
5.Wilt

jordan says kobe is better than him. so does magic.


Oh come on. Kobe didn't pick himself for top 4 so what does that mean?

That players dont pick themselves possibly?


We're talking about the same Michael Jordan who also picked Kwame Brown in 2001 over Tyson Chandler and Pau Gasol ... right?

We're supposed to trust in that guy's ability to accurately evaluate talent ... ?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject:

KingKobe20 wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
OCWA wrote:
Kobe is probably the toughest minded player of all-time but he is not even in the top 5 greatest all-time

1.Kareem
2.Jordan
3.Magic
4.Russell
5.Wilt

jordan says kobe is better than him. so does magic.


Plus that list of top 5 Greatest players gotta be under the criteria as to what they accomplished because one on one, Kobe would of shredded up a lot of them. Especially if they are playing with 1's and 2's. No disrespect to Wilt and Bill because they didn't even play in a era with the 3 point line.

possibly, although in wilt's case i doubt it. not because of skill, but size. have you seen the dr.j vs kareem 1on1?
also, the more video footage that comes out about wilt, it's impressive stuff....guy is doing fadeaways like nowitzki along with everything else he did. i'd love to see more pure 1on1 matchups. kobe tends to destroy people on pure 1on1. we've only seen glimpses of it. that block on kyrie was one. the blocks on lebron at the all star game. without the help of teammates, i don't think any of the modern crop of guys would beat him without a big size advantage.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:12 am    Post subject:

Jordan never said, "Kobe, you're better than me."

C'mon now.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject:

Vancouver Fan wrote:
Jordan never said, "Kobe, you're better than me."

C'mon now.

more than once.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:31 am    Post subject:

It depends what your definition for greatest player of all time is. Between Jordan and Kobe, I make the distinction between efficiency and skill.

Jordan was the more efficient player of the 2, evidenced by their stats and overall accomplishments.

Looking at the tape, Kobe was the more skilled player. Kobe had more moves in his wheelhouse than Jordan did. Not saying Jordan wasn't capable of making moves, but Jordan always worked his sweet spots, which improved his efficiency.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
Jordan never said, "Kobe, you're better than me."

C'mon now.

more than once.


link please, I wanna see this
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:56 am    Post subject:

SuperboyReformed wrote:
Vancouver Fan wrote:
Jordan never said, "Kobe, you're better than me."

C'mon now.

more than once.


I've never read or seen MJ directly say "Kobe is better than me."

He has said stuff like "Kobe could beat me 1 on 1 -- because he stole all my moves."

But that's not saying Kobe is better.

Superboy's paraphrases often reflect what he thinks or what he wishes people had said rather than what they actually said.

Of course, I'll be happy to stand correctly if Superboy actually supplies the links to the many times MJ has said "Kobe is better for me." I'll be standing by, and I expect I'll be standing by a long, long time
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:29 am    Post subject:

I don't put much stock in what MJ says in any event; his track record when it comes to identifying talent is suspect anyway ... again, this is the same guy who chose Kwame Brown over Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol, Joe Johnson, Zach Randolph, Tony Parker and Agent Zero (among others) in the 2001 NBA draft. The same guy who later chose MKG over Bradley Beal, Damian Lillard, Andre Drummond, Draymond Green, Khris Middleton and Robert Sacre in the 2012 NBA draft ...

But Super Dave Osborne ... now, that's another story. The learned gentleman linked below supposedly overheard Coach John Wooden at a breakfast one day many years ago suggesting that Kobe was the greatest player he had ever seen ...

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