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Larry Bird Stepping Down as Pacers President (Lakers/PG13 Related)
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nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:49 pm Post subject:

LilJay24 wrote:

see this is false. No way that Curry's perceived floor when he was 19,20,21 that much higher then Brandon Ingram.

In 10 years they'll be saying "Ingram was a 6'10 small forward so everyone knew that his floor was really high".

I live in the Bay Area, Curry's floor was never "remarkably high".

I don't think Ingram's floor is very high at this point, but his ceiling is.

LakerSanity
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Location: Long Beach, California

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:16 pm Post subject:

Judah wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

I think Ingram could be in all-star contention as soon as next season, and will be an all-star by year 4, at the latest. I think he'll be ready much faster than people think, which is another reason why I'm not willing to trade him.

Not sure if I've ever disagreed with you on anything, ever. And the streak continues. Ingram is the one you can't afford to lose, especially for a player like George who could potentially bolt next summer anyways. Besides, if he does suit up in gold, I'm sure George would much rather play with Ingram than be traded for him. I also agree that he'll become a top player much, much sooner than people think. If George doesn't find his way here by next season I actually expect the Lakers to run much of their offense through Ingram and feature him as their go-to scorer.

And as crazy as it may sound to most, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Ingram eventually becomes a better player than George. Unless you're a juggernaut of a defensive team, you need at least two star players to compete for a title. George and Ingram could be it for the Lakers.

Ingram projects as better than George... longer, taller. All that's missing is experience and strength. I think, at the end of the day, Ingram will be some kind of hybrid of Durant/Greek freak/Leonard. That doesn't mean he'll be as good as any one of those guys, but it also means he could be as good or better than all of them. That depends on Ingram. However, his measurements, athleticism, work ethic and BBall IQ alone give him the potential to be in that group... which is a step up from George (even pre-injury George) IMO.

And what makes me believe he'll get there faster than people think is how quickly he developed in only one NBA season. For those who doubt his quickness, I think they need to understand is that the issue isn't that he isn't quick, but that his strength inhibits his ability to get past people. One bump, and he's slowed up. James Harden has the opposite problem - Harden isn't actually as quick as he appears, but he can bump people off of him which allows him to get past people more easily. Put some weight/strength on Ingram, with his length, he's going to be incredibly hard to defend getting to the rim, just like a Kevin Durant.

And if one doesn't think he can play with a guy like George, then you must think Klay Thompson and Kevin Durant are a bad fit too. George and Ingram aren't the same size - they actually compare with Klay and Durant well in terms of respective measurements (especially because I think Ingram has grown and will continue to grow). Ingram is taller/longer than Leonard too. Anyway, this is the new NBA - lineups with guys like George and Ingram in it are the new ideal, not something to shy away from. And yes, once Ingram puts some weight on, with his height/length, he can easily play PF in this new NBA as well.
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Omar Little
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:38 pm Post subject:

The problem with comparing durant and klay to pg13 and ingram is that neither of the latter two are off screen shooters. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel

55
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Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 12092

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:44 pm Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

100%. Once he figured out the NBA game, he matured so much on the court.
Give him a little more confidence and the sky is the limit for this kid.

LakerSanity
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

The problem with comparing durant and klay to pg13 and ingram is that neither of the latter two are off screen shooters.

If Ingram becomes the shooter we hope he can be, I think Ingram could be... I also think George could be, in the right offense. George used to do a lot more off screens back when they were contending with Stevenson the first time around. From what I've seen, since Stevenson and Hill left, and after returning from his injury, he's been much more on the ball out of necessity. Assuming Ingram's shooting develops, put both in Luke's offense along with Russell, I think they'd be fine. George is a very good shooter, especially when one considers he gets few open looks because of the lack of shooters/talent around him.
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pjiddy
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject:

LilJay24 wrote:

After going through the Pacers/Bulls forums that I can find, I saw that both fanbases think they would be getting top3+Ingram or Dlo+Ingram or DLO+top3.

idk why I went through all those forums/boards just to piss myself off but I think they're delusional af. They probably think we're delusional for thinking we won't be giving up 2/3 pieces.

I remember a lot of people thinking we could get Wade in return for Shaq.

LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

I remember a lot of people thinking we could get Wade in return for Shaq.

I do think for bulls fans it's somewhat realistic because the bulls aren't being forced into trading Butler. He even said he would like to stay in Chicago. PG13 is a totally different situation where pacers aren't likely to get what they want.

LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject:

Ingram is a long way from being a respectable shooter.

nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:32 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

The problem with comparing durant and klay to pg13 and ingram is that neither of the latter two are off screen shooters.

Good point

tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

The problem with comparing durant and klay to pg13 and ingram is that neither of the latter two are off screen shooters.

Hmm, PG had the 3rd most shots per games off screens (4.3 per game) at 67.5th percentile at converting them

For reference:
Klay - 6.6/ 70.4
Beal - 4.7 / 60.1
PG - 4.3 / 67.5

LakerSanity
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Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:54 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

Omar Little wrote:

The problem with comparing durant and klay to pg13 and ingram is that neither of the latter two are off screen shooters.

Hmm, PG had the 3rd most shots per games off screens (4.3 per game) at 67.5th percentile at converting them

For reference:
Klay - 6.6/ 70.4
Beal - 4.7 / 60.1
PG - 4.3 / 67.5

Two things impress me about this post... first, how you didn't cite to that Deng/Mozgov lineup's defensive stats again. Second, how your stats support my thoughts on Ingram/George. Keep it up!
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tox
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:04 pm Post subject:

lol Last edited by tox on Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chase.button07
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Joined: 19 Feb 2017
Posts: 4996

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:07 pm Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

tox wrote:

Omar Little wrote:

The problem with comparing durant and klay to pg13 and ingram is that neither of the latter two are off screen shooters.

Hmm, PG had the 3rd most shots per games off screens (4.3 per game) at 67.5th percentile at converting them

For reference:
Klay - 6.6/ 70.4
Beal - 4.7 / 60.1
PG - 4.3 / 67.5

Two things impress me about this post... first, how you didn't cite to that Deng/Mozgov lineup's defensive stats again. Second, how your stats support my thoughts on Ingram/George. Keep it up!

lol

Omar Little
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90307
Location: Formerly Known As 24

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:24 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

Omar Little wrote:

The problem with comparing durant and klay to pg13 and ingram is that neither of the latter two are off screen shooters.

Hmm, PG had the 3rd most shots per games off screens (4.3 per game) at 67.5th percentile at converting them

For reference:
Klay - 6.6/ 70.4
Beal - 4.7 / 60.1
PG - 4.3 / 67.5

Interesting. Had not to seen that part of his game. Thanks for the info.
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Wino
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:35 pm Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

I think you may be right. Would hate to see us trade him.
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crazylakerfan001
Star Player

Joined: 14 Feb 2011
Posts: 1006

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:36 pm Post subject:

pjiddy wrote:

LilJay24 wrote:

I remember a lot of people thinking we could get Wade in return for Shaq.

what we did get was the heat's second best player in Lamar Odom, their second best prospect in caron butler, grant to match the salaries, and a future pick.

A similar package for Paul George would be Clarkson, Randle, Black, and future pick not this years pick.

Also to consider, George was never the player shaq was, but he is a couple years younger now than shaq was when he got traded.

tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:45 pm Post subject:

Wino wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

I think you may be right. Would hate to see us trade him.

I think that's (bleep) insane. Ingram as an all-star contender as soon as next season? What? Dude's "amazing" month in March was 13.5/4.1/2.4 on 56% TS%. That was in freaking 35.5 mpg. How on Earth is that even in the same universe as all-star contention? The proper forwards in the West, this season, put up:
25/8/5 on 65%
26/6/4 on 61%
22/5/3.5 on 60%
11/9/8 on 52% (Draymond Green)

Draymond is outlier good on defense so his counting stats are unimpressive.

Ingram isn't even CLOSE to all-star status, and that's cherrypicking his best month. And his defense is BY FAR the worst of the group of forwards.

Sorry but you'd have to predict Ingram making an unprecedented sophomore year jump to get to all-star contender. We should be happy if he becomes an average NBA starter, because that itself would be a huge jump from where he was at the end of this season.

tox
Franchise Player

Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:54 pm Post subject:

Quote:

And what makes me believe he'll get there faster than people think is how quickly he developed in only one NBA

It's really easy to develop a lot in the season when you start at absolute garbage. In reality, the stuff he was doing in March/ April he was doing as early as December. In December he started showing the capability of going off of one foot when he finished, and by January it was pretty clear he was going to be a very good finisher sooner rather than later. (Though I'm not sure many expected him to be so explosive while finishing.)

But I'm not sure what exactly he developed, because it's mostly the same stuff he showed in college? He's still terrible at catch & shoot, his free throw stroke is still awful, his defense regressed as the season continued, he's still a horrible rebounder. I saw Ingram gain confidence to do the things that he already did in college: namely, attack the rim (shown earlier in the season circa Dec-Jan) and triple threat moves in ISO (shown at Duke).

I don't want to undersell the skills of Ingram, but rather question the framing of his growth. I don't see how he showed anything special in his growth as an NBA player (which is different than saying his growth was underwhelming -- it was good and impressive, but not special). Nance became more confident with his jump shot to end the season... but those skills were already latent in him and he just lacked the temerity to take the jump shots. I wouldn't say he showed any impressive growth on his jumper, because I believe he already had that capability to begin with. It's a mentality thing. That's how I see Ingram, though obviously, Ingram flashed a far more impressive set of skills.

Wino
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego

Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:59 pm Post subject:

tox wrote:

Wino wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

I think you may be right. Would hate to see us trade him.

First year spent finding himself. See how much he improved towards the end of the season. FO knows that he is their biggest hope on this current roster. They want to win now, not tank anymore. If they don't do something stupid and trade him, they know that they are going to have to make him their #1 option. It will depend on how ready he is and if he is able to build some more muscle between now and the start of the coming season.

Ingram has awesome length, his ability to elevate and thread the paint really impresses me. His highlights are definitely super impressive, if he can put it together more often than not, he is going to get a lot better a lot quicker than anyone realizes.

I don't really expect him to be an all-star next season, but I could see him really blowing some minds by the end of next season and be an all-star by year 4 or 5. I think he has way more upside than anyone else on the team.
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tox
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Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 17880

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 12:02 am Post subject:

Wino wrote:

tox wrote:

Wino wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

I think you may be right. Would hate to see us trade him.

Well I mostly objected to the statement that he could be in all-star contention by next year. I also disagree he's anything close to a sure thing in getting better than Paul George. For all the warranted optimism about Ingram's game, he's terrible as a shooter (in an objective, non-relative sense, obviously he's young) and there's nothing forgone about him becoming even 80% as good of a shooter as Paul George, who shot 90% from the line btw.

nash
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Joined: 23 Oct 2001
Posts: 8194

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:57 am Post subject:

tox wrote:

Wino wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

I think you may be right. Would hate to see us trade him.

Hater

I'm just kidding

yinoma2001
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Posts: 119487

Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:12 am Post subject:

I love Ingram and think highly of him, but we need to hold the horses a bit on his stardom. He's got quite a ways to go b/f we can start pegging him at that spot. I do think he is the team's most valued asset (unless we get a top 2 pick) at this point. If anything, barring a #1 pick, I would do anything possible to keep Ingram/DLO in any trade to pick up PG13. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals

pio2u
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:22 am Post subject:

Pacers Coach Nate McMillan Plans For Paul George To ‘Be Back’ With Indiana Next Year

Quote:

Head coach Nate McMillan, however, heads into the NBA offseason under the assumption that George will remain with the Pacers, via Nate Taylor of IndyStar.com:

“I had a good conversation with Paul,” McMillan said. “He wants the same thing that I want and the organization wants and that’s to win. My plans are that he will be back with us and we’ll be building to be successful next year.”

http://www.lakersnation.com/pacers-coach-nate-mcmillan-plans-for-paul-george-to-be-back-with-indiana-next-year/2017/04/30/

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nba/pacers/2017/04/27/quick-takeaways-pacers-coach-nate-mcmillans-news-conference/100973466/

LakerSanity
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:40 am Post subject:

I don't think Ingram is going to an all-star game next year... what I mean by "contention" is that he could, as early as next year, be mentioned as someone who is getting to that level already. But, by year 4, could he get selected over someone like Draymond Green? Absolutely in my mind. I see a kid who took the first half of the season to figure it out, and, despite his physical limitations, still figured out a way to start impacting the game. Once the kid puts on some strength, I think he'll be unstoppable. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service Twitter: @DeleteThisPost

pio2u
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Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 8:50 am Post subject:

Bird may take a year or so off then possibly return to the NBA in some capacity with another team. (Orlando is wooing him).

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