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Bard207
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 Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Only a guess, but perhaps the rigid stance about not giving up any draft picks was a feeling of invincibility* with so many things going right over the decades and the belief that things would always work out favorably for them.
* Compensation pick that became Magic
* Pick that became Worthy
* Vlade for Kobe (draft rights)
* Signing Shaq
* Trade for Pau
Compared to many teams, there wasn't as much adversity to overcome.
Perhaps they didn't completely walkthrough alternate scenarios to see that they would still be in a favorable position even if they had to add a pick or two to close the deal.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I hope it wasn't pride that killed the CP3 deal. The picks that we used for Nash...I mean...come on. |
That's why I'm hoping for a little more info. Have you ever heard this before? It's news to me. |
I saw reports that after the original deal was nixed, the Lakers, Houston and Hornets got together to come up with a new one that acceptable to Stern.
The NY Times reported in Dec. 2011: "The league wanted the Lakers to surrender draft picks and young players, likely including Andrew Bynum, the Lakers’ promising center. But the Lakers need Bynum, either to serve as a franchise cornerstone, or to be used as the main chip in a trade for Howard, the Orlando Magic center, who is asking to be traded."
Seems silly now that Bynum would be a stumbling block but right then he was in the middle of a 19-12 season that would see him make an all-star team. |
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LarryCoon
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I hope it wasn't pride that killed the CP3 deal. The picks that we used for Nash...I mean...come on. |
That's why I'm hoping for a little more info. Have you ever heard this before? It's news to me. |
I had a nice conversation a year or two ago with one of the principal dealmakers in that deal. He said they all got back on the phone and tried to work it out, but the Lakers' position was that they had agreed on deal terms, and they weren't changing them. I don't know how much of that was standing on principle, and how much was not wanting to cross a line where they give up assets they'd need for a subsequent Howard trade. If I ever talk to Mitch or Jim down the line I'll try to find out. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | focus wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I hope it wasn't pride that killed the CP3 deal. The picks that we used for Nash...I mean...come on. |
That's why I'm hoping for a little more info. Have you ever heard this before? It's news to me. |
I had a nice conversation a year or two ago with one of the principal dealmakers in that deal. He said they all got back on the phone and tried to work it out, but the Lakers' position was that they had agreed on deal terms, and they weren't changing them. I don't know how much of that was standing on principle, and how much was not wanting to cross a line where they give up assets they'd need for a subsequent Howard trade. If I ever talk to Mitch or Jim down the line I'll try to find out. |
Interesting. If it was part of a subsequent transaction, understandable, but how does one nix a CP3 b/c it would jeopardize a future Howard deal?
I would think you get a prime CP3 at all costs and worry about the additional pieces later.
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | focus wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I hope it wasn't pride that killed the CP3 deal. The picks that we used for Nash...I mean...come on. |
That's why I'm hoping for a little more info. Have you ever heard this before? It's news to me. |
I had a nice conversation a year or two ago with one of the principal dealmakers in that deal. He said they all got back on the phone and tried to work it out, but the Lakers' position was that they had agreed on deal terms, and they weren't changing them. I don't know how much of that was standing on principle, and how much was not wanting to cross a line where they give up assets they'd need for a subsequent Howard trade. If I ever talk to Mitch or Jim down the line I'll try to find out. |
Interesting. If it was part of a subsequent transaction, understandable, but how does one nix a CP3 b/c it would jeopardize a future Howard deal?
I would think you get a prime CP3 at all costs and worry about the additional pieces later. |
my impression was this, larry please confirm one day if you can, lol...
once the cp3 deal became public, it seemed like the other owners like gilbert and cuban could already see that howard was part of the plan as well...hence their complaint. so for the lakers it was like a two step plan, cp3 then howard. once the first part of the plan was forced to be modified, obviously that affects the second part. lakers maybe didn't want to lose out on both, so they just insisted on those things.
seems like once the veto occurred, the lakers were screwed as far as the two step plan. either they would have to give up too much for cp3, and lose out on howard. or let go of cp3 and get howard. but not both. and that's the point. lakers got screwed. gilbert, cuban, and co won.
and after all that fuss about the unfiarness of kobe pairing up with cp3 and howard...just a few years later gilbert himself forms a superteam with lebron, love, kyrie...no issues with that. and of course, no issues with the warriors stacking up on stars. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | focus wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I hope it wasn't pride that killed the CP3 deal. The picks that we used for Nash...I mean...come on. |
That's why I'm hoping for a little more info. Have you ever heard this before? It's news to me. |
I had a nice conversation a year or two ago with one of the principal dealmakers in that deal. He said they all got back on the phone and tried to work it out, but the Lakers' position was that they had agreed on deal terms, and they weren't changing them. I don't know how much of that was standing on principle, and how much was not wanting to cross a line where they give up assets they'd need for a subsequent Howard trade. If I ever talk to Mitch or Jim down the line I'll try to find out. |
Interesting. If it was part of a subsequent transaction, understandable, but how does one nix a CP3 b/c it would jeopardize a future Howard deal?
I would think you get a prime CP3 at all costs and worry about the additional pieces later. |
my impression was this, larry please confirm one day if you can, lol...
once the cp3 deal became public, it seemed like the other owners like gilbert and cuban could already see that howard was part of the plan as well...hence their complaint. so for the lakers it was like a two step plan, cp3 then howard. once the first part of the plan was forced to be modified, obviously that affects the second part. lakers maybe didn't want to lose out on both, so they just insisted on those things.
seems like once the veto occurred, the lakers were screwed as far as the two step plan. either they would have to give up too much for cp3, and lose out on howard. or let go of cp3 and get howard. but not both. and that's the point. lakers got screwed. gilbert, cuban, and co won.
and after all that fuss about the unfiarness of kobe pairing up with cp3 and howard...just a few years later gilbert himself forms a superteam with lebron, love, kyrie...no issues with that. and of course, no issues with the warriors stacking up on stars. |
Even if that's the case, you still would have had to trade for Howard. I wouldn't have turned down CP3 for the hope to swindle the Magic for Dwight down the road. Those picks ended up being used in the Nash trade. 
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | LarryCoon wrote: | | focus wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I hope it wasn't pride that killed the CP3 deal. The picks that we used for Nash...I mean...come on. |
That's why I'm hoping for a little more info. Have you ever heard this before? It's news to me. |
I had a nice conversation a year or two ago with one of the principal dealmakers in that deal. He said they all got back on the phone and tried to work it out, but the Lakers' position was that they had agreed on deal terms, and they weren't changing them. I don't know how much of that was standing on principle, and how much was not wanting to cross a line where they give up assets they'd need for a subsequent Howard trade. If I ever talk to Mitch or Jim down the line I'll try to find out. |
Interesting. If it was part of a subsequent transaction, understandable, but how does one nix a CP3 b/c it would jeopardize a future Howard deal?
I would think you get a prime CP3 at all costs and worry about the additional pieces later. |
my impression was this, larry please confirm one day if you can, lol...
once the cp3 deal became public, it seemed like the other owners like gilbert and cuban could already see that howard was part of the plan as well...hence their complaint. so for the lakers it was like a two step plan, cp3 then howard. once the first part of the plan was forced to be modified, obviously that affects the second part. lakers maybe didn't want to lose out on both, so they just insisted on those things.
seems like once the veto occurred, the lakers were screwed as far as the two step plan. either they would have to give up too much for cp3, and lose out on howard. or let go of cp3 and get howard. but not both. and that's the point. lakers got screwed. gilbert, cuban, and co won.
and after all that fuss about the unfiarness of kobe pairing up with cp3 and howard...just a few years later gilbert himself forms a superteam with lebron, love, kyrie...no issues with that. and of course, no issues with the warriors stacking up on stars. |
Even if that's the case, you still would have had to trade for Howard. I wouldn't have turned down CP3 for the hope to swindle the Magic for Dwight down the road. Those picks ended up being used in the Nash trade. |
after the veto, all the lakers were left with was lose-lose situations. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: |
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You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | | [and after all that fuss about the unfiarness of kobe pairing up with cp3 and howard...just a few years later gilbert himself forms a superteam with lebron, love, kyrie...no issues with that. and of course, no issues with the warriors stacking up on stars. |
The complaints (ostensibly) weren't really about superteams as much as about big market teams like Los Angeles having more ability to attract and keep superstars than small market teams.
That said, I'd say most NBA fans have caught on that Gilbert is a self-centered hypocrite. |
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67ShelbyGT
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers. |
That team gets to WCF on Kobe + CP3's will alone imo and with Kobe anything can happen after that. Still baffled at FO's decision. I remember hearing that D12 deal was not a slam dunk if CP3 deal did execute. Wasnt David West's name tossed around?
Anyhow, I get it no point crying over spilt milk but FO (bleep) up big time if 1 or 2 draft picks is the reason CP3 wasnt in a Laker uniform. Dumb and stubborn move. My biggest qualm with Mitch circa 2002-2008 was that he was too timid with trades and afraid to pull the trigger. SMH
<Que AI> Draft picks? We talking about draft picks?
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Last edited by 67ShelbyGT on Tue May 02, 2017 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| 67ShelbyGT wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers. |
That team gets to WCF imo on Kobe + CP3's will alone imo and with Kobe anything can happen after that. Still baffled at FO's decision. I remember hearing that D12 deal was not a slam dunk if CP3 deal did execute. Wasnt David West's name tossed around?
Anyhow, I get it no point crying over spilt milk but FO (bleep) up big time if 1 or 2 draft picks is the reason CP3 wasnt in a Laker uniform. Dumb and stubborn move. My biggest qualm with Mitch circa 2002-2008 was that he was too timid with trades and afraid to pull the trigger. SMH
<Que AI> Draft picks? We talking about draft picks? |
Yeah. That's hubris to be like "we aren't trading for a top 5 player (CP3) b/c it will mess up our trade for another top 7 player (Dwight)."
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67ShelbyGT
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 67ShelbyGT wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers. |
That team gets to WCF imo on Kobe + CP3's will alone imo and with Kobe anything can happen after that. Still baffled at FO's decision. I remember hearing that D12 deal was not a slam dunk if CP3 deal did execute. Wasnt David West's name tossed around?
Anyhow, I get it no point crying over spilt milk but FO (bleep) up big time if 1 or 2 draft picks is the reason CP3 wasnt in a Laker uniform. Dumb and stubborn move. My biggest qualm with Mitch circa 2002-2008 was that he was too timid with trades and afraid to pull the trigger. SMH
<Que AI> Draft picks? We talking about draft picks? |
Yeah. That's hubris to be like "we aren't trading for a top 5 player (CP3) b/c it will mess up our trade for another top 7 player (Dwight)." |
Even back then, CP3 >>>> DH. I remember all the talk of getting a top-tier pg. CP3 was in his prime and MVP caliber at that point. Dwight was embroiled in controversies and coaching issues. Plus he was on a expiring. Dont see any angle you can justify passing up on a HOF pg when the trend was shifting towards PGs for rental headcase.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 67ShelbyGT wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers. |
That team gets to WCF imo on Kobe + CP3's will alone imo and with Kobe anything can happen after that. Still baffled at FO's decision. I remember hearing that D12 deal was not a slam dunk if CP3 deal did execute. Wasnt David West's name tossed around?
Anyhow, I get it no point crying over spilt milk but FO (bleep) up big time if 1 or 2 draft picks is the reason CP3 wasnt in a Laker uniform. Dumb and stubborn move. My biggest qualm with Mitch circa 2002-2008 was that he was too timid with trades and afraid to pull the trigger. SMH
<Que AI> Draft picks? We talking about draft picks? |
Yeah. That's hubris to be like "we aren't trading for a top 5 player (CP3) b/c it will mess up our trade for another top 7 player (Dwight)." |
If the request was Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and a couple of first-round picks for Paul, I can see why the Lakers would turn that down |
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ThreePointBomber
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: The Nixed Deal |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | splashmtn wrote: | Let us take a look at the teams post nixed deal. Name one team that it truly helped in the end? Some will say the clippers because it made them relevant. Yet they still can't see the finals. And another first round exit.
The clippers have been fools gold.
The lakers suck.
and the pelicans are trash as well.
Thanks Cuban, Jordan, Dan Gilbert, and David Stern.
What would have happened if the trade would've gone thru?
At least 2 of these teams would've been solid to very good for a few years at worse. One of them could've won a few rings-the lakers, at best. |
Cuban - Won a Championship
Jordan - Still the GOAT
Gilbert - Won the lottery every year. Got Lebron back. Won a Championship.
David Stern - Sitting pretty in retirement without a care in the world. Legacy unaffected because no one cares about what happens to the Lakers or their fans. Lebron walks: Outrage. KD walks: Outrage.
I believe in Karma, but I guess the rich and powerful are sometimes immune? Especially Crybaby Gilbert. |
If you believe in karma then you would know that they would pay in the next life.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 67ShelbyGT wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers. |
That team gets to WCF imo on Kobe + CP3's will alone imo and with Kobe anything can happen after that. Still baffled at FO's decision. I remember hearing that D12 deal was not a slam dunk if CP3 deal did execute. Wasnt David West's name tossed around?
Anyhow, I get it no point crying over spilt milk but FO (bleep) up big time if 1 or 2 draft picks is the reason CP3 wasnt in a Laker uniform. Dumb and stubborn move. My biggest qualm with Mitch circa 2002-2008 was that he was too timid with trades and afraid to pull the trigger. SMH
<Que AI> Draft picks? We talking about draft picks? |
Yeah. That's hubris to be like "we aren't trading for a top 5 player (CP3) b/c it will mess up our trade for another top 7 player (Dwight)." |
If the request was Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and a couple of first-round picks for Paul, I can see why the Lakers would turn that down |
Sounded to me like it was picks, which we gave up for Nash.
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| If we had CP3 wonder how MDA would've worked his magic on him......Kobe would probably still be playing... |
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focus
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| LarryCoon wrote: | | focus wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I hope it wasn't pride that killed the CP3 deal. The picks that we used for Nash...I mean...come on. |
That's why I'm hoping for a little more info. Have you ever heard this before? It's news to me. |
I had a nice conversation a year or two ago with one of the principal dealmakers in that deal. He said they all got back on the phone and tried to work it out, but the Lakers' position was that they had agreed on deal terms, and they weren't changing them. I don't know how much of that was standing on principle, and how much was not wanting to cross a line where they give up assets they'd need for a subsequent Howard trade. If I ever talk to Mitch or Jim down the line I'll try to find out. |
Thank you, though I'm afraid I may not like the answer. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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regarding the cp3 deal...
gilbert's stated complaint was that the lakers would save 40 mil and still get the best player in the trade, which he assumed (probably accurately) that dwight was soon on the way. now dwight alone sucks....he sucks at offense. but with cp3 carrying the playmaking load, that would free kobe up for second three-peat jordan role, ie just shoot. he would score 40 a game. then add dwight for rim protection, and that's two championships. |
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oldschool32
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 67ShelbyGT wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers. |
That team gets to WCF imo on Kobe + CP3's will alone imo and with Kobe anything can happen after that. Still baffled at FO's decision. I remember hearing that D12 deal was not a slam dunk if CP3 deal did execute. Wasnt David West's name tossed around?
Anyhow, I get it no point crying over spilt milk but FO (bleep) up big time if 1 or 2 draft picks is the reason CP3 wasnt in a Laker uniform. Dumb and stubborn move. My biggest qualm with Mitch circa 2002-2008 was that he was too timid with trades and afraid to pull the trigger. SMH
<Que AI> Draft picks? We talking about draft picks? |
Yeah. That's hubris to be like "we aren't trading for a top 5 player (CP3) b/c it will mess up our trade for another top 7 player (Dwight)." |
If the request was Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and a couple of first-round picks for Paul, I can see why the Lakers would turn that down |
Sounded to me like it was picks, which we gave up for Nash. |
Most likely they wanted the picks and Bynum. I do remember Bynum specifically being mentioned, because a)Stern and co. wanted the Pelicans to get young prospects b)Gilbert or Cuban stated that the original deal would leave the Lakers with enough assets to obtain Dwight next. I sure wish they would have given up a pick or two to get Paul if that's what it would have taken and they still were able to keep Bynum.
The league wanted 3 things from the Lakers:
draft picks
take on more salary
give up a young prospect instead of the older players they were sending out
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 67ShelbyGT wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | You end up with Kobe-CP3-Bynum (Odom + Pau out). You can easily start putting the pieces together after that including ring chasers. |
That team gets to WCF imo on Kobe + CP3's will alone imo and with Kobe anything can happen after that. Still baffled at FO's decision. I remember hearing that D12 deal was not a slam dunk if CP3 deal did execute. Wasnt David West's name tossed around?
Anyhow, I get it no point crying over spilt milk but FO (bleep) up big time if 1 or 2 draft picks is the reason CP3 wasnt in a Laker uniform. Dumb and stubborn move. My biggest qualm with Mitch circa 2002-2008 was that he was too timid with trades and afraid to pull the trigger. SMH
<Que AI> Draft picks? We talking about draft picks? |
Yeah. That's hubris to be like "we aren't trading for a top 5 player (CP3) b/c it will mess up our trade for another top 7 player (Dwight)." |
If the request was Gasol, Odom, Bynum, and a couple of first-round picks for Paul, I can see why the Lakers would turn that down |
Sounded to me like it was picks, which we gave up for Nash. |
The reports I saw speculated it was draft picks plus young players, notably Bynum, but I've never seen specifics of what was asked for. My guess is that Bynum was the sticking point, but that's only a guess.
Again, just another guess, but if the Lakers saw a way to get Paul and keep Bynum and/or keep enough assets to trade for Howard I can't imagine they'd turn it down. So I assume the revised deal would have left them with Kobe and Paul and not much else. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | regarding the cp3 deal...
gilbert's stated complaint was that the lakers would save 40 mil and still get the best player in the trade, which he assumed (probably accurately) that dwight was soon on the way. now dwight alone sucks....he sucks at offense. but with cp3 carrying the playmaking load, that would free kobe up for second three-peat jordan role, ie just shoot. he would score 40 a game. then add dwight for rim protection, and that's two championships. |
That will always be one of the big what-ifs in Lakers history. Presuming Kobe still gets injured, the three of them would have only had two seasons together.
Would the presence of Paul make Howard more content in LA or would he have had even more hissy fits being relegated to the third banana? Would Paul be OK no longer being the top dog? Kobe have clicked or clashed with a ball-dominated point guard?
Let's make it even more what-iffy:
Would Kobe have stayed healthy in this alternative universe and the three of them become a dynasty? Or would Kobe-Paul-Howard be a crash-and-burn on par with Kobe-Howard-Nash or Shaq-Kobe-Malone-Payton?
I can envision any range of possibilities happening in scenarios like this, from rings to despair, and it would have been fun to see what actually would have happened. |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 7:45 am Post subject: |
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In my mind, the big deal was the cap savings for the Lakers.
The newer owners like Gilbert had paid (what was then) huge money for their teams and were barely breaking even. They had redesigned revenue sharing, etc., to help them out, but the Lakers and Knicks were still printing money. Dumping Odom and Gasol's deals not only created more profit potential for LA, but also meant if they did a DH deal, they would STILL have cap space left. Gilbert and other owners talked about how the league was a partnership and the trade was not in the best interest of all of the partners,
As for Cuban - he just hates the Lakers. He has actively worked to nix Lakers deals since he bought the Mavs. I seem to remember him crowing about having Don Nelson calling other teams and telling them not to trade with the Lakers.
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank God that deal was nixed, or we wouldn't have Harden. |
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Dreamshake
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Posts: 13712
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: |
and after all that fuss about the unfiarness of kobe pairing up with cp3 and howard...just a few years later gilbert himself forms a superteam with lebron, love, kyrie...no issues with that. and of course, no issues with the warriors stacking up on stars. |
The Cavs signed LeBron as a free agent and gave up one of the most coveted #1 picks in years to get Love. The Warriors drafted everyone and had capspace for Durant. Not comparable situations. |
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LarryCoon
Site Staff
Joined: 11 Aug 2002
Posts: 11265
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| I never got the impression that NO asked for Bynum -- just draft pick(s). And that the impression wasn't that the Lakers were making sure they held onto the draft assets in order to set up a subsequent Howard deal; rather it was the Lakers were pissed because they thought an agreement was in place, and that NO was reneging & asking for more. |
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