OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:49 am    Post subject:

parsons777 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
parsons777 wrote:
You do realize he is averaging:
8.9 Pts (36th among PGs), 7.1 Ast* (7th), 7.1 Reb (3rd), 0.94 Blk (2nd), 1.47 Stl (11th) already?

So, the points are a little on the low side, but I'm not sure what else you can expect from him at this point in terms of other stats. ( BTW, on his Ast, his 2.67 Ast to TO ratio is better than everyone with more assists, except for Wall and Lowry. )


You missed my point. I really don’t give a flip about his averages.


...he needs to get to the point where at least 12/5/7 is the norm...

Definition of the norm

1 :an average level of development or achievement She scored well above/below the norm in math.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the%20norm


No, that is not the way that I am using the term. If you read my posts, you would understand this.
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parsons777
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
parsons777 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
parsons777 wrote:
You do realize he is averaging:
8.9 Pts (36th among PGs), 7.1 Ast* (7th), 7.1 Reb (3rd), 0.94 Blk (2nd), 1.47 Stl (11th) already?

So, the points are a little on the low side, but I'm not sure what else you can expect from him at this point in terms of other stats. ( BTW, on his Ast, his 2.67 Ast to TO ratio is better than everyone with more assists, except for Wall and Lowry. )


You missed my point. I really don’t give a flip about his averages.


...he needs to get to the point where at least 12/5/7 is the norm...

Definition of the norm

1 :an average level of development or achievement She scored well above/below the norm in math.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/the%20norm


No, that is not the way that I am using the term. If you read my posts, you would understand this.


I read your posts...I don't think the words you are using mean what you think they do.

"...But I'm not going to get excited by the occasional good game, because that is not a measure of progress. Until Ball can come to play consistently, games like this one are fool's gold."

I think you want his standard deviation to be a small number.

http://www.espn.com/fantasy/basketball/story/_/page/hardcorenba130402/understanding-which-players-consistent-shooters-which-ones-go-hot-cold-key-winning-field-goal-percentage-category


Last edited by parsons777 on Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:53 am    Post subject:

durden-tyler wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I can accept that a rookie is inconsistent. I can accept that a rookie will have ups and downs. But I'm not going to get excited by the occasional good game, because that is not a measure of progress. Until Ball can come to play consistently, games like this one are fool's gold.


I'm sorry but that doesn't make much sense, if you accept that a rookie is inconsistent, how can you wait for consistency for his rookie year ?


I don’t expect the sort of consistency that we would want in a veteran player. However, I do expect to see improved consistency over the course of his rookie season. This is a better measure of progress than the occasional big game.
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LakerLanny
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject:

socalsp3 wrote:
calistrtballr wrote:
Weakest p*ssy player ive ever seen. You cant fix that in any offseason.


Haven’t seen this dude tonight.




The hate on Lonzo is laughable, it is blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes that adding him to our team makes us a far more competitive team.

If he starts shooting better, great....if not, he is still bringing a lot to the table.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:58 am    Post subject:

parsons777 wrote:
[I read your posts...I don't think the words you are using mean what you think they do.

"...But I'm not going to get excited by the occasional good game, because that is not a measure of progress. Until Ball can come to play consistently, games like this one are fool's gold."

I think you want his standard deviation to be a small number.


If that floats your boat, go with it.
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durden-tyler
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject:

LINK

Players with at least 7 assists per game, sorted by USG%. I like it...
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Fastbreak32
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject:

Another great all-around performance by Lonzo. He's gonna have a special career even if he just becomes an adequate shooter.
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject:

I don't know how you can say a triple double is a garbage stat when everyone in the top 10 all time triple doubles list except one is a Hall of Fame level player, and the one who isn't, Fat Lever, is a 2X All Star.

To be in the top ten all time you only need 33 triple doubles and Lonzo was one assist away from having 3 in 17 games. This means he's on a pace to have close to ten by the age of 20! How is this not special?

You can say hitting for the cycle is a garbage stat... rare though it is, because when you look at the list... you see journeymen players who maybe had a fluke game, even though it is very rare. But no one is garbage on the triple double list... even when you look at a single season list. It's not something players accidentally fall into on a random day, it takes a lot of skills to achieve.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html
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pio2u
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:27 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
I don't know how you can say a triple double is a garbage stat when everyone in the top 10 all time triple doubles list except one is a Hall of Fame level player, and the one who isn't, Fat Lever, is a 2X All Star.

To be in the top ten all time you only need 33 triple doubles and Lonzo was one assist away from having 3 in 17 games. This means he's on a pace to have close to ten by the age of 20! How is this not special?

You can say hitting for the cycle is a garbage stat... rare though it is, because when you look at the list... you see journeymen players who maybe had a fluke game, even though it is very rare. But no one is garbage on the triple double list... even when you look at a single season list. It's not something players accidentally fall into on a random day, it takes a lot of skills to achieve.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html


FYI: Denver Nuggets announced that they will retire Fat Lever's jersey. The ceremony will take place during a home game against the Los Angeles Lakers on December 2, 2017.
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KungPau
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/
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governator
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

His defense was solid, hoping this is another case of shooting adjustment to the league aka BI last year. Outside of walking away from your teammate about to rumble, Lonzo has shown he’s a keeper
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

Fastbreak32 wrote:
Another great all-around performance by Lonzo. He's gonna have a special career even if he just becomes an adequate shooter.


Exactly and even if Lonzo averages 10 ppg and shoots 25% from the 3pt line he's still a great asset to the team and a future great player and maybe even a possible hall of famer.
He's and outstanding rebounder, and we all know he is a great passer and play maker, however we forget that probably his greatest attribute is that he plays very good defense. In other words he's a walking triple double every night, and I'm sure a lot of coaches would take that in a heart beat. I can't imagine why anybody would think he's a bust.
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:30 am    Post subject:

pio2u wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
I don't know how you can say a triple double is a garbage stat when everyone in the top 10 all time triple doubles list except one is a Hall of Fame level player, and the one who isn't, Fat Lever, is a 2X All Star.

To be in the top ten all time you only need 33 triple doubles and Lonzo was one assist away from having 3 in 17 games. This means he's on a pace to have close to ten by the age of 20! How is this not special?

You can say hitting for the cycle is a garbage stat... rare though it is, because when you look at the list... you see journeymen players who maybe had a fluke game, even though it is very rare. But no one is garbage on the triple double list... even when you look at a single season list. It's not something players accidentally fall into on a random day, it takes a lot of skills to achieve.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html


FYI: Denver Nuggets announced that they will retire Fat Lever's jersey. The ceremony will take place during a home game against the Los Angeles Lakers on December 2, 2017.


Good to hear... he was a nice player whose career got cut short by injuries I believe.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:36 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
His defense was solid, hoping this is another case of shooting adjustment to the league aka BI last year. Outside of walking away from your teammate about to rumble, Lonzo has shown he’s a keeper


Look his 3pt shooting may never be good but so what?
Rondo was not a great shooter and yet he was just as valuable to the Celts as their three headed scorers.
The hate for Lonzo is way out of line in this city, it shows why most other cities call us shallow spoiled fans. All I can say is that I'm going to see a lot of movement off and on that Lonzo bandwagon in the next few months.
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LakerSD
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject:

I don’t care if it’s 10/10/10, a triple double is impressive because it means the player is having a solid impact on the game. I know rebounding today is a little different than the past with teams pulling back for transition but still 16 rebounds is pretty darn impressive. 10 assists is nothing to sneeze at either. Double figures in points, I feel anyone in the NBA can get that but it might not be efficient.

10+ rebounds, 10+ assists while efficiently running a team is not easy. Some of his rebounds last night were impressive, fending off nuggets players.
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Stumpy25
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
I don’t care if it’s 10/10/10, a triple double is impressive because it means the player is having a solid impact on the game. I know rebounding today is a little different than the past with teams pulling back for transition but still 16 rebounds is pretty darn impressive. 10 assists is nothing to sneeze at either. Double figures in points, I feel anyone in the NBA can get that but it might not be efficient.

10+ rebounds, 10+ assists while efficiently running a team is not easy. Some of his rebounds last night were impressive, fending off nuggets players.


I thought his defense was very impressive, he was helping his teammates, blocking shots, rotating well, and had a hand in his man's face all night.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:41 am    Post subject:

This is the only time when triple doubles are meaningless:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48
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Stumpy25
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
This is the only time when triple doubles are meaningless:

[url=/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48 [/url]


That dude is ridiculous, on the other hand Lonzo could care less about his stats he's just happy to win games.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
I don't know how you can say a triple double is a garbage stat when everyone in the top 10 all time triple doubles list except one is a Hall of Fame level player, and the one who isn't, Fat Lever, is a 2X All Star.


Different subject for a different thread. We've actually had this discussion in the past, most recently about Rondo's triple doubles.
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durden-tyler
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
This is the only time when triple doubles are meaningless:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48


Or this one...

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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
I don't know how you can say a triple double is a garbage stat when everyone in the top 10 all time triple doubles list except one is a Hall of Fame level player, and the one who isn't, Fat Lever, is a 2X All Star.


Different subject for a different thread. We've actually had this discussion in the past, most recently about Rondo's triple doubles.


We discussed how that unprecedented odd line of stats might be garbage... but the Triple Double does not lie... it is only achieved with regularity by great players, and I happen to think Rondo has been a great player during certain parts of his career.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:56 am    Post subject:

KungPau wrote:
Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/

A (bleep) triple double truther?? How pathetic does a sports "analyst" have to be?

The vast majority of assists are basic ball moving passes. And Ball's whole deal is to make the basic play at the right time (obviously he's still improving at that at this level, as he eschews shooting far too often) while other guys get tunnel vision and take harder shots than they may have had to if they just kept the ball and themselves moving. If the Nuggets leave Brook Lopez wide open behind the arc - then Ball should pass to Lopez! Why should he pursue a more difficult play - to impress some highlight truther who couldn't get past the second round interview for ESPN.com?

Lastly, if the kid can put up multiple "fake" triple doubles at the age of 20, then what happens when he's 25?
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject:

durden-tyler wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
This is the only time when triple doubles are meaningless:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDzRvZcFn48


Or this one...


Never forget Ricky Davis!
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BynumForThree
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject:

Good game by Lonzo. The efficiency obviously needs to improve and that will continue to be the largest hurdle he needs to overcome throughout his career but everything else he does well. The key is HOW much he'll improve offensively. That determines whether he's a starter or an all star.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:02 am    Post subject:

It's going to take a while for teammates to adjust to Lonzo. We still see guys who don't have their hands ready when he makes those interior passes. I think part of that is because he goes through stretches where he seems disengaged from the game, so his teammates aren't consistently looking for those passes.

For me that was always Lonzo's biggest red flag, even more than his shot. If he becomes consistently engaged and puts his thumbprint on the game every night, guys will start expecting those split-second passes through tight windows.
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