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BennyLava
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


He does it on the offensive end as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:15 am    Post subject:

Was Jason Kidd a superstar? Because I think he will be better than Kidd.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:16 am    Post subject:

Feel bad for the the young kid having all this negative attentention, but I hope he keeps growing from this experience. He got 16 reb as a guard last game, on top of the triple double, but still find negative report. I am just happy to watch this team compete, grow and mold this year, if we make to the playoff that would be icing in the cake. Been a blast watching this year's team, with a lot of bright talent in the team. I just get impatient and frustated watching, cause I just want to accerate the process, but I have to remind myself Ball & Kuz only have 34 NBA games in their belt and if you add Ingram they only have 130 NBA games. I will see more up and down from this players and team just need to take a deep breath and enjoy the growth.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
come on pelican wrote:
KungPau wrote:
Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/


Quote:
"I don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but triple-doubles are becoming a little watered down."


I almost spit out my coffee.


Do not click the article and give him views.

Who is the author anyway? Not clicking this.


Brad Botkin...read it, and agree or disagree with his points. For CBS Sports, especially their NBA coverage, it's actually a decent article. He gives his view, and what he feels supports those views. Most of CBS's stuff is usually just aggregation.

Highlight truthering is reserved for bad LG posters.


I could care less if you read it or not....but running around telling people not to click on the link or read it screams something else entirely. Sports is becoming like politics where people only want to consume information that confirms their preferred beliefs. But your probably right...tossing out cliches
and emoji's is probably much more sufficient evidence than an article that at least gives a position and what the individual feels supports that position.

Of course triple doubles are less difficult to get today than they were in recent decades.....and more difficult to get than they were 50 years ago. I have no idea how someone can take issue with that point....its basic math.....more possessions equals more opportunities for points, rebounds and assists. The pace of the game today is much faster than it was 10, 20, or 30 years ago.....but still slower than it was in the 50's/60's (my years could be slightly off....but in general timeframe).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject:

BennyLava wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


He does it on the offensive end as well.


he may get an offensive board on a long rebound, or just happens to be where the ball bounces....but I doubt he is crashing the offensive boards....I am not sure any NBA teams still send their guards to get offensive rebounds under the basket.....it would likely kill your transition defense.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject:

Lame ass haters can (bleep) off
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject:

Don't think the argument is that triple doubles are just as hard now, because most posters can understand the pace argument. The same thing is happening on RealGM where they start to question counting stats, the validity of assists etc only when Ball has a good game. That's what smells like bull (bleep) here.

People are having trouble coming to terms with a poor scoring player being a budding all around talent. Then they throw RPM, BPM around as if rookies are impactful players this early. Most balanced takes on Ball should be that he's showing signs of what he's capable of, and that the scoring should improve. The advanced analytics will follow. I just hope we don't get one of these articles questioning the validity of RPM when Zo puts together a great season.


Last edited by levon on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


This type of thing helps overall defense. When the whole team is committed to securing a defensive rebound, even in the event the rebound is not secure, your team is in position to defend a reset...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject:

Treble Clef wrote:
KungPau wrote:
Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/


I clicked on the article out of curiosity and all I can say is whoever made the headline was seeking too much attention. The article itself was not bad. It highlights a lot of what people downplayed about Westbrook's play over the years.


In particular, the article touches on how misleading the assist stat can be. That's nothing new. I can remember people talking about this all the way back in the 1970s. He also makes an interesting point about rebounding stats being inflated in the current NBA. I hadn't noticed this, but he's right. The effect doesn't appear to be as large as he suggests, though.

The bigger problem with triple-doubles is that there is nothing magical about 10. Humans have ten fingers and ten toes, so our numbering system is based on 10. We unconsciously give the number a mystical quality that it does not merit. The term was apparently coined in 1980, when Magic hit the league. It may have been a creation of the Lakers PR department. Regardless, it creates an illusion of significance. 11/11/11 is a triple double, but 30/8/8 is not.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:

NBAtv host said it best, Lonzo is being treated and scrutinized like a #1 pick

And they were arguing just like LG with Sam Mitchell saying Lonzo shouldíve had KCPís back and to grind out for the season aka you sign up for this vs Drew Gooden who said Lonzo did the right thing by walking away and to lay off the kid... generational maybe (Iím with Sam but Iím not that old tho)


Last edited by governator on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


He does it on the offensive end as well.


he may get an offensive board on a long rebound, or just happens to be where the ball bounces....but I doubt he is crashing the offensive boards....I am not sure any NBA teams still send their guards to get offensive rebounds under the basket.....it would likely kill your transition defense.


One of his highly analyzed assist from your favorite CBSSports NBA writer was an offensive tip to I forget who on the Lakers, but it was right under the noses of two Denver bigs under the Denver basket.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject:

Until he proves he can make a 3-point shot he's not winning over anyone skeptical about his game.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Treble Clef wrote:
KungPau wrote:
Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/


I clicked on the article out of curiosity and all I can say is whoever made the headline was seeking too much attention. The article itself was not bad. It highlights a lot of what people downplayed about Westbrook's play over the years.


In particular, the article touches on how misleading the assist stat can be. That's nothing new. I can remember people talking about this all the way back in the 1970s. He also makes an interesting point about rebounding stats being inflated in the current NBA. I hadn't noticed this, but he's right. The effect doesn't appear to be as large as he suggests, though.

The bigger problem with triple-doubles is that there is nothing magical about 10. Humans have ten fingers and ten toes, so our numbering system is based on 10. We unconsciously give the number a mystical quality that it does not merit. The term was apparently coined in 1980, when Magic hit the league. It may have been a creation of the Lakers PR department. Regardless, it creates an illusion of significance. 11/11/11 is a triple double, but 30/8/8 is not.


Or that a triple double is a measure of an all round game, but a getting points on board is what most people think is all that matters in the current game?

The 10 is a double digit threshold, suggesting the impact through that particular aspect of the game. Whether its rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and of course scoring, a double digit impact is an indicator of contribution.

If you want arbitrary stats look no further to baseball that literally invented stats to make the game interesting.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


He does it on the offensive end as well.


he may get an offensive board on a long rebound, or just happens to be where the ball bounces....but I doubt he is crashing the offensive boards....I am not sure any NBA teams still send their guards to get offensive rebounds under the basket.....it would likely kill your transition defense.


He actually does crash the boards. He had a tip back to Lopez when he couldn't secured it and he got a airball from kcp dropped right into his hands "under the basket like a big man". If you zero on him and watch him, he is always trying to do something to help the team. Pass to someone open,get open or even crash the boards.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:35 am    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
Until he proves he can make a 3-point shot he's not winning over anyone skeptical about his game.


I dont know about that.
As long as he starts hitting his layups and scores in double digits consistently, I think his overall game will keep the haters at bay, even with a poor 3 ball.

Also, once a big time publication finally watches a game and writes about his good defense, the narrative will change.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:38 am    Post subject:

BennyLava wrote:
pio2u wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
come on pelican wrote:
KungPau wrote:
Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/


Quote:
"I don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but triple-doubles are becoming a little watered down."


I almost spit out my coffee.


Do not click the article and give him views.

Who is the author anyway? Not clicking this.


Brad Botkin...read it, and agree or disagree with his points. For CBS Sports, especially their NBA coverage, it's actually a decent article. He gives his view, and what he feels supports those views. Most of CBS's stuff is usually just aggregation.

Quote:
triple-doubles are becoming a little watered down.

Delusional


If they are going to be analyzing each assist, I wonder how many "legitimate" triple doubles Westbrook or even Ben Simmons gets?

Whats next a rebound should only count if it comes when 3 people taller than you from the opposing team are within 3 ft of the rebounder?

An assist should only count if its one that is after beating at least 3 players on the dribble while the scorer scores it in a single continuous motion.

Incredible. I get that Ball isnt dominating, but an article to de-legitimize a stat is just petty.


You can deconstruct any statistically significant performance and the majority of plays will be mundane. Organized team sports is mostly the routine punctuated by periodic spasms of the spectacular.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject:

BennyLava wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


He does it on the offensive end as well.


he may get an offensive board on a long rebound, or just happens to be where the ball bounces....but I doubt he is crashing the offensive boards....I am not sure any NBA teams still send their guards to get offensive rebounds under the basket.....it would likely kill your transition defense.


One of his highly analyzed assist from your favorite CBSSports NBA writer was an offensive tip to I forget who on the Lakers, but it was right under the noses of two Denver bigs under the Denver basket.


typical and predictable
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:40 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
adkindo wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
come on pelican wrote:
KungPau wrote:
Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/


Quote:
"I don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but triple-doubles are becoming a little watered down."


I almost spit out my coffee.


Do not click the article and give him views.

Who is the author anyway? Not clicking this.


Brad Botkin...read it, and agree or disagree with his points. For CBS Sports, especially their NBA coverage, it's actually a decent article. He gives his view, and what he feels supports those views. Most of CBS's stuff is usually just aggregation.

Highlight truthering is reserved for bad LG posters.


I could care less if you read it or not....but running around telling people not to click on the link or read it screams something else entirely. Sports is becoming like politics where people only want to consume information that confirms their preferred beliefs. But your probably right...tossing out cliches
and emoji's is probably much more sufficient evidence than an article that at least gives a position and what the individual feels supports that position.

Of course triple doubles are less difficult to get today than they were in recent decades.....and more difficult to get than they were 50 years ago. I have no idea how someone can take issue with that point....its basic math.....more possessions equals more opportunities for points, rebounds and assists. The pace of the game today is much faster than it was 10, 20, or 30 years ago.....but still slower than it was in the 50's/60's (my years could be slightly off....but in general timeframe).

As you note, that is not true, they were easier to get during the Big O's days when pace was even faster and the talent pool was far, far shallower. And even in a slower post-ABA merger NBA that bottomed out in possessions per game in the 90s, stars would play more minutes per game where 40 mins was the median rather than a heavy night (as it was for Ball last night).

Regarding your first point, clearly many posters here consumed information that did not confirm their preferred beliefs in reading Botkin's piece and cogently took it to task for its flaws, while your favorite Twitter analyst, Cranjis, definitively disproved Botkin's claims about contested rebounds with Synegy data. Just because you (undeservedly) feel like LG's Dr. Stockmann doesn't mean you have to project your own frustration and Lonzo-stan persecution complex onto every two bit piece of clickbait hackery trying to buck a straw man groupthink for page views.

Aso, I love you, man, but why don't you use "you're?" Are you saving on typing time?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:40 am    Post subject:

The CBSsports article would have way more credibility had he posted it after a Laker loss and when Lonzo wasn't hovering over a Plus 30 all game.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject:

noahp45 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


He does it on the offensive end as well.


he may get an offensive board on a long rebound, or just happens to be where the ball bounces....but I doubt he is crashing the offensive boards....I am not sure any NBA teams still send their guards to get offensive rebounds under the basket.....it would likely kill your transition defense.


He actually does crash the boards. He had a tip back to Lopez when he couldn't secured it and he got a airball from kcp dropped right into his hands "under the basket like a big man". If you zero on him and watch him, he is always trying to do something to help the team. Pass to someone open,get open or even crash the boards.


so your telling me that Luke has him crashing the offensive boards? I do not really pay attention to that, but your telling me that is what is happening?
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Last edited by adkindo on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:41 am    Post subject:

Spectacular performance last night. When he is on he can do it all.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject:

Stu said 5 of his assist where 3's that's 15points the other where 2 points I don't think there was any and1's so he helped bring his team 27Pts. Now add the 11pts he shot that's 38points that he is responsible for. I'm curious if there is a formula to come up with how many points taken away from a defensive rebound and how many added for a offensive rebound.

Maybe -1 point to the other team for a defensive rebound and plus 1 point for a offensive rebound.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:43 am    Post subject:

BennyLava wrote:
Or that a triple double is a measure of an all round game, but a getting points on board is what most people think is all that matters in the current game?

The 10 is a double digit threshold, suggesting the impact through that particular aspect of the game. Whether its rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and of course scoring, a double digit impact is an indicator of contribution.


The only two things that matter in basketball are getting points on the board and keeping the other team from getting points on the board. Everything else is a side show. Assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks may contribute one way or another, or they may not. They are not ends to themselves. We lose sight of this sometimes.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
noahp45 wrote:
adkindo wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
pio2u wrote:
Lonzo Ball Credits Advice From Brian Shaw For His 16 Rebounds Against The Nuggets

http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-news-lonzo-ball-credits-advice-from-brian-shaw-for-his-16-rebounds/2017/11/20/


His rebounding is easy to see, instead of breaking out down the court like many guards do he hangs in the paint when a shot goes up. I think that helps start fast breaks.


He does it on the offensive end as well.


he may get an offensive board on a long rebound, or just happens to be where the ball bounces....but I doubt he is crashing the offensive boards....I am not sure any NBA teams still send their guards to get offensive rebounds under the basket.....it would likely kill your transition defense.


He actually does crash the boards. He had a tip back to Lopez when he couldn't secured it and he got a airball from kcp dropped right into his hands "under the basket like a big man". If you zero on him and watch him, he is always trying to do something to help the team. Pass to someone open,get open or even crash the boards.


so your telling me that Luke has him crashing the offensive boards? I do not really pay attention to that, but your telling me that is what is happening?


Don't know if the coaching staff is having him but he is crashing them.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:


so your telling me that Luke has him crashing the offensive boards? I do not really pay attention to that, but your telling me that is what is happening?


Nope. He doesn't crash the board in that way where it affects the transition defense. But if he's going through the lane and his teammate shoots at that time, he's quick to try to box his man. When he's above the 3 point line, he's always quick to run back on defense.

Just scroll through the 1st quarter video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1WqQZF74h4

You'll see him do this. Also you'll note he does crash the board from the 3 point line when it's the last shot of the quarter. Smarts.
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Last edited by epak on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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