OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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greenfrog
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject:

dr. buss wrote:
Just to be clear I love Lonzo and think he is a great player.

Some peoples expectations are for him to be the "wolf" from the Teen Wolf movie. Showboating, dunking, stealing the ball from his own teammates and being flashy.

Unfortunately, he is only "Scott" but doesn't show his emotions on his sleeve. And yes, Scott does win the champion game.

(I suck at links or else I would add them)


He's just not aggro enough for certain people's taste. I see the same thing going on with Brook. Maybe if they got some tats.
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Mamba Mentality
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject:

I think it's pretty simple to see that if there are few assists for the amount of field goals made, then there was more iso ball being played.

More assists mean easier shots and the ball is moving.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:


Thanks Randle is a better passer than KCP confirmed
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epak
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject:

greenfrog wrote:
dr. buss wrote:
Just to be clear I love Lonzo and think he is a great player.

Some peoples expectations are for him to be the "wolf" from the Teen Wolf movie. Showboating, dunking, stealing the ball from his own teammates and being flashy.

Unfortunately, he is only "Scott" but doesn't show his emotions on his sleeve. And yes, Scott does win the champion game.

(I suck at links or else I would add them)


He's just not aggro enough for certain people's taste. I see the same thing going on with Brook. Maybe if they got some tats.


We had 20 years of Kobe.
It'll take time

https://youtu.be/Yjff7tS8MxY?t=400


Pet peeve, seems like he jumps on that FT. Illegal!
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject:

Mamba Mentality wrote:
I think it's pretty simple to see that if there are few assists for the amount of field goals made, then there was more iso ball being played.

More assists mean easier shots and the ball is moving.

Do assisted shots have a higher expected PPP than unassisted shots?
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Mamba Mentality
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mamba Mentality wrote:
I think it's pretty simple to see that if there are few assists for the amount of field goals made, then there was more iso ball being played.

More assists mean easier shots and the ball is moving.

Do assisted shots have a higher expected PPP than unassisted shots?


I don't know the answer to that. But my inclination is to say no. I do not believe assists affect PPP.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:36 pm    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
In baseball, this was one of the contributions of the early sabermetric guys like Bill James. Home runs and steals may sell tickets, but run creation and run prevention are what it is all about.


One of my pet peeves. Genius Billy Beane, in 20 years of running the A's, has put together teams that averaged 83 wins, with no Pennants and 6 playoff appearances.

Theo Epstein put together 2 WS winners in Boston and another with the Cubs - two franchises that were in 90 and 100+ year droughts, respectively - by grabbing players who hit home runs and pitchers with low ERAs and high strikeouts . . .


I'm not sure you realize that Theo Epstein is one of the most advanced sabermetrics guys in the MLB.

https://www.theringer.com/2016/6/27/16037390/theo-epstein-market-inefficiency-cubs-red-sox-undeniables-ca36fd494ba1

Quote:
And even though Billy Beane was the hero of Moneyball, he’s not the archetypal general manager of the Moneyball movement. No, it’s the guy the Red Sox hired when they couldn’t get Beane.

When Boston hired Theo Epstein on November 25, 2002, it changed the game forever, both figuratively and literally. Boston had finished second to the Yankees in the AL East for five straight years, despite making big, headline-grabbing moves for Pedro Martínez, Manny Ramírez, and lastly Johnny Damon, whose departure from Oakland precipitated the events of Moneyball itself. Unlike the 2002 A’s, Boston wasn’t an experimental group of castoffs on a shoestring budget; it was Old Money, a rich, well-scrutinized organization that would ordinarily have been run conservatively. Instead, team president Larry Lucchino handed the reins to the youngest general manager in MLB history. A 28-year-old lawyer with no playing or coaching experience, Epstein looked like he’d gotten lost on the way to a high school mock trial competition, and he showed up with big ideas and a mountain of quantitative data.
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject:

Mamba Mentality wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Mamba Mentality wrote:
I think it's pretty simple to see that if there are few assists for the amount of field goals made, then there was more iso ball being played.

More assists mean easier shots and the ball is moving.

Do assisted shots have a higher expected PPP than unassisted shots?


I don't know the answer to that. But my inclination is to say no. I do not believe assists affect PPP.

They have to have some effect if assisted shots mean easier shots - easier shots should have a higher PPP.
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epak
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject:

AC Green's V-Card wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
In baseball, this was one of the contributions of the early sabermetric guys like Bill James. Home runs and steals may sell tickets, but run creation and run prevention are what it is all about.


One of my pet peeves. Genius Billy Beane, in 20 years of running the A's, has put together teams that averaged 83 wins, with no Pennants and 6 playoff appearances.

Theo Epstein put together 2 WS winners in Boston and another with the Cubs - two franchises that were in 90 and 100+ year droughts, respectively - by grabbing players who hit home runs and pitchers with low ERAs and high strikeouts . . .


I'm not sure you realize that Theo Epstein is one of the most advanced sabermetrics guys in the MLB.

https://www.theringer.com/2016/6/27/16037390/theo-epstein-market-inefficiency-cubs-red-sox-undeniables-ca36fd494ba1

Quote:
And even though Billy Beane was the hero of Moneyball, he’s not the archetypal general manager of the Moneyball movement. No, it’s the guy the Red Sox hired when they couldn’t get Beane.

When Boston hired Theo Epstein on November 25, 2002, it changed the game forever, both figuratively and literally. Boston had finished second to the Yankees in the AL East for five straight years, despite making big, headline-grabbing moves for Pedro Martínez, Manny Ramírez, and lastly Johnny Damon, whose departure from Oakland precipitated the events of Moneyball itself. Unlike the 2002 A’s, Boston wasn’t an experimental group of castoffs on a shoestring budget; it was Old Money, a rich, well-scrutinized organization that would ordinarily have been run conservatively. Instead, team president Larry Lucchino handed the reins to the youngest general manager in MLB history. A 28-year-old lawyer with no playing or coaching experience, Epstein looked like he’d gotten lost on the way to a high school mock trial competition, and he showed up with big ideas and a mountain of quantitative data.



When you use analytics and have the money to spend, good things can happen. Go Dodgers!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
No I had addressed it earlier in my post directly under yours that we had posted about the same time about 10 comments up. The part where I said I understood the imperfections of the stat, but that I personally found it useful for filtering out quality players.


Eh. Maybe that's true for you, but it didn't seem that useful to other people on this board when people like Lebron and Rondo were running up triple doubles. Are triple doubles a useful filter, or are triple doubles a useful filter because Ball got a couple?

Are triple doubles a useless filter, or are triple doubles a useless filter because Ball got a couple? I probably just missed the last 12 years of you putting everyone's triple doubles in their proper context. Regardless, Ball is averaging 8.9 PPG/7.1 APG/7.1 RPG in the typical trip-dub stat categories. Here are the 16 Players ever to hit those averages listed by the age that they first accomplished it:
Age 20 - Magic, Lebron
Age 21 - Ben Simmons
Age 22 - Oscar Robertson
Age 23 - Norm Van Lier
Age 24 - Grant Hill
Age 25 - Michael Jordan, Draymond Green
Age 26 - Westbrook, Kidd, Fat Lever
Age 27 - James Harden
Age 28 - Darrell Walker
Age 29 - None
Age 30 - Wilt, Bird, Havlicek
<end>
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:04 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
Now you're moving goalposts. At first you said, the only two things that count are points scored and points against. Assists don't matter.

Now you're saying 50 FGs unassisted equals 50 FGs assisted.

If assists don't matter, how can 50 assists be equal to 50 unassisted FGs.

I asked you a simple question, would you rather have 100 pts or 51 assists?

If assists don't matter, you'd take the 100 pts right?


I've explained the point clearly. You are fixated with stats as units, but that is not the point.
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tox
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
No I had addressed it earlier in my post directly under yours that we had posted about the same time about 10 comments up. The part where I said I understood the imperfections of the stat, but that I personally found it useful for filtering out quality players.


Eh. Maybe that's true for you, but it didn't seem that useful to other people on this board when people like Lebron and Rondo were running up triple doubles. Are triple doubles a useful filter, or are triple doubles a useful filter because Ball got a couple?


To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.

That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles: his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:13 pm    Post subject:

If you want to argue that stats other than PPG don't matter because there's no way of knowing whether they directly affected points scored by either team, couldn't you also say that individual PPG don't really matter because there's no way of knowing whether those points still would've been scored if some other player had shot the ball instead? This stuff is too abstract, man. All I know is, I watched Lonzo play last night and he looked really good and so did the team.

If you don't like triple double Lonzo, you'll probably never like him because I don't think he'd be a big time scorer even if he had the skills to do so. It's just not in his nature. Also, 11/11/11 might not be as good as 30/8/8, but is it better than 30/0/0? I think it is. From a point guard, definitely. Yet, if Lonzo scored 30 and did nothing else, I guess there probably are some people who would think that was great.
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BigGameHames
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject:

trashcan wrote:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzos-balls-triple-double-looks-good-on-paper-but-its-pretty-deceiving/

what do you guys think of this? these dudes out here using examples of pnp and pnr skips where defenders are off balance and just cause they attacked out of instead of taking a straight shot out of, they say lonzo shouldnt even get the assist


It’s kinda hard to find any credibility in that article. He says HS players can make some of the passes he made which isn’t totally false but it’s completely outta context. Sure the pass itself is simple, but putting the defense in that position and the decision to make that pass is what isn’t easy and it’s what he does very well. Making the simple pass consistently is a good thing and not common. Just watching other Lakers players miss simple passes consistently proves that. Also, he tries to discredit multiple rebounds because they were long and were right to him. Firstly, when you get that many rebounds, a few are gonna be easy just like a player who gets 30 points generally got at least a few easy ones. Secondly, having rebounds consistently go right to you often isn’t a coincidence, it’s a player having a nose for the ball and being in the right spots. All in all, the article is a joke and is easily disproved on almost every level.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
No I had addressed it earlier in my post directly under yours that we had posted about the same time about 10 comments up. The part where I said I understood the imperfections of the stat, but that I personally found it useful for filtering out quality players.


Eh. Maybe that's true for you, but it didn't seem that useful to other people on this board when people like Lebron and Rondo were running up triple doubles. Are triple doubles a useful filter, or are triple doubles a useful filter because Ball got a couple?

Are triple doubles a useless filter, or are triple doubles a useless filter because Ball got a couple? I probably just missed the last 12 years of you putting everyone's triple doubles in their proper context. Regardless, Ball is averaging 8.9 PPG/7.1 APG/7.1 RPG in the typical trip-dub stat categories. Here are the 16 Players ever to hit those averages listed by the age that they first accomplished it:
Age 20 - Magic, Lebron
Age 21 - Ben Simmons
Age 22 - Oscar Robertson
Age 23 - Norm Van Lier
Age 24 - Grant Hill
Age 25 - Michael Jordan, Draymond Green
Age 26 - Westbrook, Kidd, Fat Lever
Age 27 - James Harden
Age 28 - Darrell Walker
Age 29 - None
Age 30 - Wilt, Bird, Havlicek
<end>


My eye test says Lonzo is in good company.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
I probably just missed the last 12 years of you putting everyone's triple doubles in their proper context.


I've been critical of the fixation with triple doubles for years. Let me give you an example. As an 18 year old, Lebron posted 30/10/9 with 5 steals in a game. He also posted 33/16/7. But those aren't triple doubles.

I'm not saying that Lebron is an appropriate comparison for Ball. But when you fixate on triple doubles, you exclude some of the monumental games that other players had at a young age, and you elevate Ball's performances to a status that they really don't merit by an objective standard.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:26 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.

That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles: his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard.


I can roll with that.
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defense
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles: his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard.
[/quote]

Indeed
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject:

tox wrote:
To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.

That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles:]his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard.


He checks off so many boxes, man. He's good at all of these things for ANY guard, and that gets magnified when you contextualize his game with his age and experience level.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
I probably just missed the last 12 years of you putting everyone's triple doubles in their proper context.


I've been critical of the fixation with triple doubles for years. Let me give you an example. As an 18 year old, Lebron posted 30/10/9 with 5 steals in a game. He also posted 33/16/7. But those aren't triple doubles.

I'm not saying that Lebron is an appropriate comparison for Ball. But when you fixate on triple doubles, you exclude some of the monumental games that other players had at a young age, and you elevate Ball's performances to a status that they really don't merit by an objective standard.


You’re not inherently discrediting more impressive almost triple doubles when you praise a triple double. Those Lebron performances are more impressive, Lonzos triple doubles are still very impressive though. Not to mention, Lonzo did have a high point total almost triple double already too.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject:

Lonzo is a fantastic talent who had a very good game vs the Nuggets.. Critiquing the value of a triple double as an arbitrary bar of performance is fair. These are separate issues.

I personally think that Lonzo's game at phoenix where he put up 29/11/9 was a better performance than his game vs the nuggets, even though it wasn't a triple double.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:49 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
tox wrote:
To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.

That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles:]his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard.


He checks off so many boxes, man. He's good at all of these things for ANY guard, and that gets magnified when you contextualize his game with his age and experience level.


At this point in time, would you consider Lonzo an average NBA starting PG? If not where do you think he stands.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:02 pm    Post subject:

It seems like the term "moving the goalposts" is popular within this community. I wonder, how does one who uses that term feel when someone else uses that term against them? 😂😂😂

Do they kick the dirt and say, "Shucks, that's my word?" Or do that get furious and say, "Ima get that SOB?" 😂😂😂
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
It seems like the term "moving the goalposts" is popular within this community. I wonder, how does one who uses that term feel when someone else uses that term against them? 😂😂😂

Do they kick the dirt and say, "Shucks, that's my word?" Or do that get furious and say, "Ima get that SOB?" 😂😂😂


"did dis dude just commit a LOGICAL FALLACY wen debatin me? O HELL NAW"
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject:

BigGameHames wrote:
GoldenThroat wrote:
tox wrote:
To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.

That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles:]his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard.


He checks off so many boxes, man. He's good at all of these things for ANY guard, and that gets magnified when you contextualize his game with his age and experience level.


At this point in time, would you consider Lonzo an average NBA starting PG? If not where do you think he stands.


Nah, he's probably 24th-ish or so.
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