OFFICIAL LONZO BALL THREAD
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
Or that a triple double is a measure of an all round game, but a getting points on board is what most people think is all that matters in the current game?

The 10 is a double digit threshold, suggesting the impact through that particular aspect of the game. Whether its rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and of course scoring, a double digit impact is an indicator of contribution.


The only two things that matter in basketball are getting points on the board and keeping the other team from getting points on the board. Everything else is a side show. Assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks may contribute one way or another, or they may not. They are not ends to themselves. We lose sight of this sometimes.


How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat?

Only players to get triple doubles this season

Russell Westbrook, Ben Simmons, Lebron James, James Harden, Demarcus Cousins, Kyle Lowry, and Lonzo Ball

Top ten players with triple doubles.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html

If it were meaningless, then you'd find random players popping up on the list all the time, but this is almost never the case.

You'd think a meaningless stat would produce a motley collection of starters but only the cream seems to be on this list. If Lonzo turned out a bust he would be an outlier with a capital O
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levon
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
Or that a triple double is a measure of an all round game, but a getting points on board is what most people think is all that matters in the current game?

The 10 is a double digit threshold, suggesting the impact through that particular aspect of the game. Whether its rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and of course scoring, a double digit impact is an indicator of contribution.


The only two things that matter in basketball are getting points on the board and keeping the other team from getting points on the board. Everything else is a side show. Assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks may contribute one way or another, or they may not. They are not ends to themselves. We lose sight of this sometimes.


How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat?

Only players to get triple doubles this season

Russell Westbrook, Ben Simmons, Lebron James, James Harden, Demarcus Cousins, Kyle Lowry, and Lonzo Ball

Top ten players with triple doubles.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html

If it were meaningless, then you'd find random players popping up on the list all the time, but this is almost never the case.

You'd think a meaningless stat would produce a motley collection of starters but only the cream seems to be on this list. If Lonzo turned out a bust he would be an outlier with a capital O

inb4 Fat Lever comps
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DLaker
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:53 am    Post subject:

Just did some quick research.
Best All star guard in the NBA today vs Lonzo

Player, # of triple double, 16+ reb, # of game played

Russell, 83, 8, 682
Harden, 33, 2, 632
CP3, 13, 0, 837
Lowry, 10, 0, 729
Wall, 7, 0, 514
Curry, 7, 0, 590
Irving, 1, 0, 397
Simmons, 2, 0, 15

Kidd, 107, 6, 1391

Ball, 2, 1, 17

Just for fun since hate is so high for a kid playing only 17 games in the NBA lets project his number.

With Russell then Kidd amount of games
Ball, 80, 40, 682
Ball, 163, 82, 1391



Last edited by DLaker on Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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adkindo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:54 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
As you note, that is not true, they were easier to get during the Big O's days when pace was even faster and the talent pool was far, far shallower. And even in a slower post-ABA merger NBA that bottomed out in possessions per game in the 90s, stars would play more minutes per game where 40 mins was the median rather than a heavy night (as it was for Ball last night).

Regarding your first point, clearly many posters here consumed information that did not confirm their preferred beliefs in reading Botkin's piece and cogently took it to task for its flaws, while your favorite Twitter analyst, Cranjis, definitively disproved Botkin's claims about contested rebounds with Synegy data. Just because you (undeservedly) feel like LG's Dr. Stockmann doesn't mean you have to project your own frustration and Lonzo-stan persecution complex onto every two bit piece of clickbait hackery trying to buck a straw man groupthink for page views.

Aso, I love you, man, but why don't you use "you're?" Are you saving on typing time?


BVH...not even responding to this crap....you tell me I am wrong, then rewrite a summary of what I stated....then the second paragraph.....making it personal and touching on things we have discussed in private in the past....ok man. Sure you got some LG'ers to google Stockmann....so there is that.
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epak
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject:

Tom Haberstroh @tomhaberstroh 4h4 hours ago
In Oct, Lakers 24.8 points per 100 possessions WORSE with Lonzo on the floor vs. him on bench. Very bad. In Nov? Lakers are 9.9 points BETTER with him on the floor. Plot twist.


That's good to know.
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:57 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
Or that a triple double is a measure of an all round game, but a getting points on board is what most people think is all that matters in the current game?

The 10 is a double digit threshold, suggesting the impact through that particular aspect of the game. Whether its rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and of course scoring, a double digit impact is an indicator of contribution.


The only two things that matter in basketball are getting points on the board and keeping the other team from getting points on the board. Everything else is a side show. Assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks may contribute one way or another, or they may not. They are not ends to themselves. We lose sight of this sometimes.


Is this like saying you'll always prefer the guy who scores 1 pt vs the guy who gets 20 rebounds?

Also, isn't an assist by definition a made bucket?


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:59 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
As you note, that is not true, they were easier to get during the Big O's days when pace was even faster and the talent pool was far, far shallower. And even in a slower post-ABA merger NBA that bottomed out in possessions per game in the 90s, stars would play more minutes per game where 40 mins was the median rather than a heavy night (as it was for Ball last night).

Regarding your first point, clearly many posters here consumed information that did not confirm their preferred beliefs in reading Botkin's piece and cogently took it to task for its flaws, while your favorite Twitter analyst, Cranjis, definitively disproved Botkin's claims about contested rebounds with Synegy data. Just because you (undeservedly) feel like LG's Dr. Stockmann doesn't mean you have to project your own frustration and Lonzo-stan persecution complex onto every two bit piece of clickbait hackery trying to buck a straw man groupthink for page views.

Aso, I love you, man, but why don't you use "you're?" Are you saving on typing time?


BVH...not even responding to this crap....you tell me I am wrong, then rewrite a summary of what I stated....then the second paragraph.....making it personal and touching on things we have discussed in private in the past....ok man. Sure you got some LG'ers to google Stockmann....so there is that.

I think everyone should read Ibsen. But I'll drop it.
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Beir32
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Nash Vegas wrote:
come on pelican wrote:
KungPau wrote:
Speaking of haters, there's this stupid article. When has anyone ever had an article dedicated to debunking the validity of their triple double? Unbelievable.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/lonzo-balls-triple-double-vs-nuggets-could-not-have-been-less-impressive/


Quote:
"I don't mean to be a buzz kill here, but triple-doubles are becoming a little watered down."


I almost spit out my coffee.


Do not click the article and give him views.

Who is the author anyway? Not clicking this.


Brad Botkin...read it, and agree or disagree with his points. For CBS Sports, especially their NBA coverage, it's actually a decent article. He gives his view, and what he feels supports those views. Most of CBS's stuff is usually just aggregation.


The article is fine. The headline and subject is 100% click bait. Pick a random Westbrook triple double from last year and you'll be able to make the same criticisms. On top of that you might also see his bigs backing off the boards and allowing Westy to get a few gimmie boards. It's not just these two either. The author seems to have a problem with how assists are given out in the NBA and that's perfectly fine. Packaging this criticism as "Meh…Lonzo still isn't that good" is grade A good old fashioned click bait.
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noahp45
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject:

Melo has a lot of games this year with no assist and less then 5 rebounds how is that working out for him?
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IBWriter
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:04 am    Post subject:

"Triple-doubles are becoming a little watered down."

Apparently only when Lonzo gets them. Anyone else, they're impressive.
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JustWinBaby
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:06 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
Or that a triple double is a measure of an all round game, but a getting points on board is what most people think is all that matters in the current game?

The 10 is a double digit threshold, suggesting the impact through that particular aspect of the game. Whether its rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and of course scoring, a double digit impact is an indicator of contribution.


The only two things that matter in basketball are getting points on the board and keeping the other team from getting points on the board. Everything else is a side show. Assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks may contribute one way or another, or they may not. They are not ends to themselves. We lose sight of this sometimes.


Got to disagree with that. On a individual basis, looks great when you score. But team play is most important. Just look at Wilt. He scored a godzillion points and was super dominant on defense, but couldn't didn't win that many championship. Better teams won.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject:

IBWriter wrote:
"Triple-doubles are becoming a little watered down."

Apparently only when Lonzo gets them. Anyone else, they're impressive.


Next game Lonzo puts up 26/2/2

Headline: Lonzo Ball struggles with all-around game
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject:

Yeah Lopez could easily average 10 RPG if he only hung around near the rim.

Oh wait...
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:28 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Yeah Lopez could easily average 10 RPG if he only hung around near the rim.

Oh wait...

He boxes out so Lonzo can get so many rebounds.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:31 am    Post subject:

Quote:
Lonzo and LeBron got their second career triple-doubles at the exact same age, down to the day.


Quote:
Lonzo Ball is just the 6th player to produce multiple triple-doubles within his first 20 @NBA games.


Quote:
Most rebounds by any rookie guard in 17 years

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Tom Haberstroh @tomhaberstroh 4h4 hours ago
In Oct, Lakers 24.8 points per 100 possessions WORSE with Lonzo on the floor vs. him on bench. Very bad. In Nov? Lakers are 9.9 points BETTER with him on the floor. Plot twist.


That's good to know.


Durant was league worst in plus minus during his first 2 years.
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eddiejonze
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject:

Sentient Meat wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
BennyLava wrote:
Or that a triple double is a measure of an all round game, but a getting points on board is what most people think is all that matters in the current game?

The 10 is a double digit threshold, suggesting the impact through that particular aspect of the game. Whether its rebounding, blocks, steals, assists and of course scoring, a double digit impact is an indicator of contribution.


The only two things that matter in basketball are getting points on the board and keeping the other team from getting points on the board. Everything else is a side show. Assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks may contribute one way or another, or they may not. They are not ends to themselves. We lose sight of this sometimes.


How do you explain how only elite players seem to get triple doubles, if it is such a random stat?

Only players to get triple doubles this season

Russell Westbrook, Ben Simmons, Lebron James, James Harden, Demarcus Cousins, Kyle Lowry, and Lonzo Ball

Top ten players with triple doubles.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/triple-double-most-times.html

If it were meaningless, then you'd find random players popping up on the list all the time, but this is almost never the case.

You'd think a meaningless stat would produce a motley collection of starters but only the cream seems to be on this list. If Lonzo turned out a bust he would be an outlier with a capital O

For a guy who always tries to espouse basketball "knowledge" for our erudition- saying assists may not lead to points is almost trump like.
In Lonzo's case specifically, I can even point to his rebounding leading to said "scoring assists" because after he boards, he likes to fire a pass up court.
Then there's the whole "putback" after a missed shot which is LITERALLY A REBOUND THAT LEADS TO POINTS.
I mean, I just can't.
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44TheLogo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject:

y'all are misinterpreting Aeneas Hunter's post entirely.

other stats are important only insomuch as they affect your team's ability to put points on the board or deny the other team from putting points on the board. a rebound isn't valuable in and of itself, it's valuable because it prevents the other team from another shot attempt (DReb) or it gives your team another shot attempt (OReb). An assist is valuable if it puts your teammate in an advantageous situation to be able to score better. Moving the ball is important because it forces the defense to move and rotate and cover more ground, which makes it easier to attack - just passing the ball statically back and forth doesn't actually achieve anything, the pass has to create opportunity.

It's easy to forget but at the end of the day, the single most important thing to win games is to score more than the other team. all the stats outside of PPG are important because they help put your team in a position to be more likely to score more than the other team, but, just to use an extreme hypothetical, even if your team has 100 open layups and misses them all, you will lose to the team that has 1 triple teamed jumpshot that went in.
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Last edited by 44TheLogo on Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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KungPau
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:35 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Yeah Lopez could easily average 10 RPG if he only hung around near the rim.

Oh wait...

He boxes out so Lonzo can get so many rebounds.


But that doesn't explain the rest of his career and his disappointing rebounding totals.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject:

Is anyone hyped to see Ball go up against De’Aaron Fox...? it’s gonna happen.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
Tom Haberstroh @tomhaberstroh 4h4 hours ago
In Oct, Lakers 24.8 points per 100 possessions WORSE with Lonzo on the floor vs. him on bench. Very bad. In Nov? Lakers are 9.9 points BETTER with him on the floor. Plot twist.


That's good to know.

Nance injury. Brings Kuzma into the lineup, and also mixes lineups. Clarkson's playmaking has regressed too, leaving Zo as only person on the team that can coordinate an offense coherently.
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Sentient Meat
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Sentient Meat wrote:
Yeah Lopez could easily average 10 RPG if he only hung around near the rim.

Oh wait...

He boxes out so Lonzo can get so many rebounds.


Lonzo already exceeded the number of 10 plus rebounds game that Lopez had last year. And his PGs last year only had one game with over 10 rebounds.

I'm not saying his teammates or the game plan doesn't help him, but if it were easy others would be doing it all the time.
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epak
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
y'all are misinterpreting Aeneas Hunter's post entirely.

other stats are important only insomuch as they affect your team's ability to put points on the board or deny the other team from putting points on the board. a rebound isn't valuable in and of itself, it's valuable because it prevents the other team from another shot attempt (DReb) or it gives your team another shot attempt (OReb). An assist is valuable if it puts your teammate in an advantageous situation to be able to score better. Moving the ball is important because it forces the defense to move and rotate and cover more ground, which makes it easier to attack - just passing the ball statically back and forth doesn't actually achieve anything, the pass has to create opportunity.

It's easy to forget but at the end of the day, the single most important thing to win games is to score more than the other team. all the stats outside of PPG are important because they help put your team in a position to be more likely to score more than the other team, but, just to use an extreme hypothetical, even if your team has 100 open layups and misses them all, you will lose to the team that has 1 triple teamed jumpshot that went in.


The end in itself vs a means to an end.
Sure there's a philosophical approach to looking at the numbers.
Not sure that negates the value of a triple double.
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LakerSD
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
Is anyone hyped to see Ball go up against De’Aaron Fox...? it’s gonna happen.


If Lonzo keeps playing defense like he is, Fox is in for a surprise. This is not UCLA Lonzo defense.
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saetarubia
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject:

20 assists/20 rebounds game isn't far from his reach.
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