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adkindo
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | Guys, cut out the Lavar talk. He's not a Laker. Go to off topic if you want to talk about Lavar.
On Ball news, he's currently #20 in individual defensive rating. Randle is #16 too.
#3-#9 in defensive rating are all Celtics players. Jason Tatum is #3. Damn.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html |
do these really mean anything? I have always felt most often if you take the team with the highest offensive or defensive ratings, and for the most part the individual ratings will simply be full of these teams players, especially the starters/heavy minute guys....but not very insightful to individual offensive or defensive players. |
Well, that's chicken and the egg argument right? It also goes to whether its a coach's scheme, or the individual defensive/offensive talents of the players.
Still, to your question, its notable that the #1 player in defensive rating is Whiteside, who happens to be the only player from the Heat (the #11th team in defensive rating) in the top 20. Andre Drummond, off the #9th defensive rated Detroit team, is the only player off the Pistons in the top 20 (he's #10). Even though the 76ers are the 15th rated defensive team, Embiid is #17 in defensive rating. Conversely, despite the fact that Golden State, Washington and San Antonio are each top 10 defensive teams per rating, they don't have any players who possess a top 20 individual defensive rating. |
you make good points....I may have not worded correctly....I was not claiming it to be true....just saying that has always been more of my assumption. |
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The Juggernaut
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Joined: 24 Aug 2017
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | epak wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | Guys, cut out the Lavar talk. He's not a Laker. Go to off topic if you want to talk about Lavar.
On Ball news, he's currently #20 in individual defensive rating. Randle is #16 too.
#3-#9 in defensive rating are all Celtics players. Jason Tatum is #3. Damn.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html |
do these really mean anything? I have always felt most often if you take the team with the highest offensive or defensive ratings, and for the most part the individual ratings will simply be full of these teams players, especially the starters/heavy minute guys....but not very insightful to individual offensive or defensive players. |
One thing we know is that Boston's defense is legit.
My question is: is Kyrie a legit defender? Or are they protecting him somehow? |
idk...cant say I have watched much of them...but listening to podcasts and NBA radio....the narrative currently is he is playing improved defense. |
He's not being hidden, he's playing great defense this year. He was clutch on D down the stretch of tonight's game for Boston. Dude is slowly entering the MVP convo now. |
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socalsp3
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Can you imagine Lebron v Kyrie in a Lakers Celtics finals? I think the league is going to make this happen. |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| socalsp3 wrote: | | Can you imagine Lebron v Kyrie in a Lakers Celtics finals? I think the league is going to make this happen. |
probably looking at a 35 or 36 year old Lebron vs. 27 or 28 year old Kyrie....not sure I would like the results of that match up... |
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tox
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | Guys, cut out the Lavar talk. He's not a Laker. Go to off topic if you want to talk about Lavar.
On Ball news, he's currently #20 in individual defensive rating. Randle is #16 too.
#3-#9 in defensive rating are all Celtics players. Jason Tatum is #3. Damn.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html |
do these really mean anything? I have always felt most often if you take the team with the highest offensive or defensive ratings, and for the most part the individual ratings will simply be full of these teams players, especially the starters/heavy minute guys....but not very insightful to individual offensive or defensive players. |
No, they really don't. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | | But aren't you the one illustrating which counting stats matter? Isn't your point that the only counting stats that matter is 100 pts vs. 95 pts? |
I've explained my point very clearly. If you still can't understand it, then throwing more words at you will accomplish nothing. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: |
do these really mean anything? I have always felt most often if you take the team with the highest offensive or defensive ratings, and for the most part the individual ratings will simply be full of these teams players, especially the starters/heavy minute guys....but not very insightful to individual offensive or defensive players. |
Individual DRtg starts with a team's defensive rating and then allocates a rating to individual players based on their box score stats. It produces weird results, like ranking Kyrie Irving as the ninth best defensive player in the league. Irving is playing better defense with the Celtics, but not that much better. |
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Eindhoven
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| tox wrote: | To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.
That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles: his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard. |
I brought it from 3 pages back, because I believe everyone should read it.
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Eindhoven wrote: | | tox wrote: | To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.
That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles: his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard. |
I brought it from 3 pages back, because I believe everyone should read it. |
Thanks.
Very well said by tox. 
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Ziggy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | | Eindhoven wrote: | | tox wrote: | To be fair, those two thoughts can work together. You can argue triple doubles are uninteresting filters for players who are elite (or thought to be elite), but that they are interesting filters for players who aren't there yet. I think it's particularly salient for people who call Lonzo a bust, because it's a quick shorthand for how well-rounded Lonzo is and how you can't just point to shooting struggles to summarize his entire season so far.
That said, I personally find the triple double just shows what's immediately obvious about Lonzo: he's good at rebounding and he's good at getting assists. To me, the more interesting things about Lonzo aren't covered by triple doubles: his pristine ATR and his ridiculous steal/block rates for a rookie guard. |
I brought it from 3 pages back, because I believe everyone should read it. |
Thanks.
Very well said by tox. |
Yes, good post tox.
The kid literally plays well in just about every aspect of basketball except for scoring: defense, rebounding, distributing, pushing pace are already at a high level. It's almost like he needs to score just to make people take notice of all the other things he does. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | | Mamba Mentality wrote: | I think it's pretty simple to see that if there are few assists for the amount of field goals made, then there was more iso ball being played.
More assists mean easier shots and the ball is moving. |
Do assisted shots have a higher expected PPP than unassisted shots? |
I don't know the answer to that. But my inclination is to say no. I do not believe assists affect PPP. |
They have to have some effect if assisted shots mean easier shots - easier shots should have a higher PPP. |
I actually surmised the same, so I decided to head on over to Basketball Reference and used the "Basic Possession Formula" to determine possessions and pulled assists for all seasons dating back to 1975.
I made a chart. There's virtually zero correlation between PPP and AST. I calculated the correlation coefficient (how much the two data sets correlate from -1 to 1, and got 0.07 which is basically no relationship at all).
https://i.imgur.com/M95a3Ff.png
I will say -- this is a bit puzzling to me. Probably not best suited for the Lonzo thread, but I'd love to have a discussion about people's thoughts on it. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | | But aren't you the one illustrating which counting stats matter? Isn't your point that the only counting stats that matter is 100 pts vs. 95 pts? |
I've explained my point very clearly. If you still can't understand it, then throwing more words at you will accomplish nothing. |
Yup, this is usually what people say when they come to a dead end.
Everything I've brought up is exactly word for word what you've said.
1) at the end of the day, only pts matter
2) 100 pts is better than 95 pts, no matter the number of assists
My question, would you rather have 100 pts or 51 assists?
Answer: crickets..... |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Do Lonzo Ball's strengths make up for his glaring weaknesses?
| Quote: | Is Los Angeles Lakers rookie Lonzo Ball the player who shot 1-of-9 from the field in a loss to the Philadelphia 76ers on Wednesday, missing all six of his 3-point attempts, or the player who had a triple-double (11 points, 16 rebounds, 11 assists) four nights later in a blowout win over the Denver Nuggets?
The answer is both, of course, and while Ball's inconsistency is hardly unusual for a 20-year-old rookie point guard, the all-or-nothing nature of his present skill set makes him an atypically challenging player to evaluate. Are Ball's strengths currently outweighing his weaknesses? Let's take a look. |
LINK
surprised by this fact...
| Quote: | | The Lakers have been slightly better defensively with him (Ball) on the bench, per NBA.com/Stats. |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Lonzo is really a boom or bust type of player. Without the good shooting, he is an average starter maybe. With the UCLA shooting, he is a All-Star/superstar type of player. He has a pretty clear path. |
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saetarubia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Lonzo is really a boom or bust type of player. Without the good shooting, he is an average starter maybe. With the UCLA shooting, he is a All-Star/superstar type of player. He has a pretty clear path. |
I don't expect UCLA shooting from him. His TS was 67%. Fair to stay most didn't expect him to shoot like that in the NBA else he'd be unanimous No.1 on draft boards. He'd be an all time great with that level of shooting to go with other facets. I'd be happy with 44 36 80 from him as career percentage. That's a superstar given his other stronger facets imo.
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AY2043
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | Do Lonzo Ball's strengths make up for his glaring weaknesses?
| Quote: | Is Los Angeles Lakers rookie Lonzo Ball the player who shot 1-of-9 from the field in a loss to the Philadelphia 76ers on Wednesday, missing all six of his 3-point attempts, or the player who had a triple-double (11 points, 16 rebounds, 11 assists) four nights later in a blowout win over the Denver Nuggets?
The answer is both, of course, and while Ball's inconsistency is hardly unusual for a 20-year-old rookie point guard, the all-or-nothing nature of his present skill set makes him an atypically challenging player to evaluate. Are Ball's strengths currently outweighing his weaknesses? Let's take a look. |
LINK
surprised by this fact...
| Quote: | | The Lakers have been slightly better defensively with him (Ball) on the bench, per NBA.com/Stats. |
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I think the rest of that quote provides a bit more context:
| Quote: | That doesn't account for the teammates Ball plays with, but ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) does, and despite using a box score-based value estimate (or "prior") similar to WARP and BPM, RPM rates Ball as about average defensively, relative to all players. (Ball does rate far better than the average point guard in defensive RPM.)
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This seems pretty accurate, based on my eye test (whatever that's worth). But its definitely impressive that he's been an average - above average defensive player this early on in his career. Rookie point guards are usually god awful on D, even ones that are billed as good defenders coming in to the draft.
I enjoyed that article btw. That's one of the first ones I've seen that is actually a well reasoned take on his play.
Last edited by AY2043 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Lonzo is really a boom or bust type of player. Without the good shooting, he is an average starter maybe. With the UCLA shooting, he is a All-Star/superstar type of player. He has a pretty clear path. |
I don't expect UCLA shooting from him. His TS was 67%. Fair to stay most didn't expect him to shoot like that in the NBA else he'd be unanimous No.1 on draft boards. He'd be an all time great with that level of shooting to go with other facets. I'd be happy with 44 36 80 from him as career percentage. That's a superstar given his other stronger facets imo. |
that 80 may be the most unlikely...these young guys just do not seem to shoot free throws in those 80% to 90% range.....which seems like that use to be expected of any average perimeter player. Not just our guys....a lot of young guys across the league bricking free throws. |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| saetarubia wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Lonzo is really a boom or bust type of player. Without the good shooting, he is an average starter maybe. With the UCLA shooting, he is a All-Star/superstar type of player. He has a pretty clear path. |
I don't expect UCLA shooting from him. His TS was 67%. Fair to stay most didn't expect him to shoot like that in the NBA else he'd be unanimous No.1 on draft boards. He'd be an all time great with that level of shooting to go with other facets. I'd be happy with 44 36 80 from him as career percentage. That's a superstar given his other stronger facets imo. |
Yeah didn't mean exactly UCLA shooting but for me its 35%+ from 3, 70%+ FT shooting and above average finishing. |
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AY2043
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Ugh, if he could just score at even a below average league efficiency (instead of historically bad), he'd be up there with Simmons as a ROY candidate.
He does pretty much everything else at a very high level for a rookie. |
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gooner
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | Lonzo is really a boom or bust type of player. Without the good shooting, he is an average starter maybe. With the UCLA shooting, he is a All-Star/superstar type of player. He has a pretty clear path. |
How can he be boom or bust if he is average now? |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| AY2043 wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Do Lonzo Ball's strengths make up for his glaring weaknesses?
| Quote: | Is Los Angeles Lakers rookie Lonzo Ball the player who shot 1-of-9 from the field in a loss to the Philadelphia 76ers on Wednesday, missing all six of his 3-point attempts, or the player who had a triple-double (11 points, 16 rebounds, 11 assists) four nights later in a blowout win over the Denver Nuggets?
The answer is both, of course, and while Ball's inconsistency is hardly unusual for a 20-year-old rookie point guard, the all-or-nothing nature of his present skill set makes him an atypically challenging player to evaluate. Are Ball's strengths currently outweighing his weaknesses? Let's take a look. |
LINK
surprised by this fact...
| Quote: | | The Lakers have been slightly better defensively with him (Ball) on the bench, per NBA.com/Stats. |
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I think the rest of that quote provides a bit more context:
| Quote: | That doesn't account for the teammates Ball plays with, but ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) does, and despite using a box score-based value estimate (or "prior") similar to WARP and BPM, RPM rates Ball as about average defensively, relative to all players. (Ball does rate far better than the average point guard in defensive RPM.)
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This seems pretty accurate, based on my eye test (whatever that's worth). But its definitely impressive that he's been an average - above average defensive player this early on in his career. Rookie point guards are usually god awful on D, even ones that are billed as good defenders coming in to the draft. |
not sure how it provides more context, unless your point was different than mine. I am surprised that the team is slightly better defensively with him on the bench considering his individual defensive rating. Does not really seem logical to me on the surface. As far as DRPM....I think that has always been a useless garbage stat that should either be improved or cease to be used. RPM seems to be much more accurate. |
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LakerLogic
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| gooner wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | Lonzo is really a boom or bust type of player. Without the good shooting, he is an average starter maybe. With the UCLA shooting, he is a All-Star/superstar type of player. He has a pretty clear path. |
How can he be boom or bust if he is average now? |
His potential is very high so if he is an average starter, that is not cutting it for a #2 pick. He does too many things well other than scoring to be a classic bust. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Lavar says the Lakers have no idea how to coach his son.
| Quote: | “They’re soft. They don’t know how to coach my son," Ball said of the Lakers - who have started the season with a 7-10 record - via Bleacher Report’s Eric Pincus. "I know how to coach him. I tell him to go get the victory. Stop messing around.”
Since he has been with the Lakers, LaVar says he is noticing tendencies developing in Lonzo's game that he is not fond of.
“Go get the W. Do whatever it takes. That’s why I’m down here saying, ‘Rebound,'” Ball said. “He’s been away from me too long. I see tendencies in his game—they’re trying to baby him a little bit...What I mean by babying [Lonzo], ‘He’ll figure it out. It ain’t about that. ‘Be patient with him?’ Ain’t no patience if you’re winning.” |
https://247sports.com/nba/los-angeles-lakers/Bolt/LaVar-Ball-says-Lakers-dont-know-how-to-coach-Lonzo-Ball--110852065 |
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adkindo
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| ringfinger wrote: | Lavar says the Lakers have no idea how to coach his son.
| Quote: | “They’re soft. They don’t know how to coach my son," Ball said of the Lakers - who have started the season with a 7-10 record - via Bleacher Report’s Eric Pincus. "I know how to coach him. I tell him to go get the victory. Stop messing around.”
Since he has been with the Lakers, LaVar says he is noticing tendencies developing in Lonzo's game that he is not fond of.
“Go get the W. Do whatever it takes. That’s why I’m down here saying, ‘Rebound,'” Ball said. “He’s been away from me too long. I see tendencies in his game—they’re trying to baby him a little bit...What I mean by babying [Lonzo], ‘He’ll figure it out. It ain’t about that. ‘Be patient with him?’ Ain’t no patience if you’re winning.” |
https://247sports.com/nba/los-angeles-lakers/Bolt/LaVar-Ball-says-Lakers-dont-know-how-to-coach-Lonzo-Ball--110852065 |
here is the link to the Pincus article (rather give him the page views)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2745234-lavar-ball-luke-walton-have-vastly-different-approaches-to-developing-youth
read it 3 times...still not sure what he is saying |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | ringfinger wrote: | Lavar says the Lakers have no idea how to coach his son.
| Quote: | “They’re soft. They don’t know how to coach my son," Ball said of the Lakers - who have started the season with a 7-10 record - via Bleacher Report’s Eric Pincus. "I know how to coach him. I tell him to go get the victory. Stop messing around.”
Since he has been with the Lakers, LaVar says he is noticing tendencies developing in Lonzo's game that he is not fond of.
“Go get the W. Do whatever it takes. That’s why I’m down here saying, ‘Rebound,'” Ball said. “He’s been away from me too long. I see tendencies in his game—they’re trying to baby him a little bit...What I mean by babying [Lonzo], ‘He’ll figure it out. It ain’t about that. ‘Be patient with him?’ Ain’t no patience if you’re winning.” |
https://247sports.com/nba/los-angeles-lakers/Bolt/LaVar-Ball-says-Lakers-dont-know-how-to-coach-Lonzo-Ball--110852065 |
here is the link to the Pincus article (rather give him the page views)
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2745234-lavar-ball-luke-walton-have-vastly-different-approaches-to-developing-youth
read it 3 times...still not sure what he is saying |
He's saying what many of us have said about Luke.
He's being too soft on the players. I kind of agree. Too much good cop on that coaching staff and not enough bad cop. |
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